Rifle Scopes Help Me Decide: ATACR vs. PMII vs. Razor

[richthe1]

* What is the platform for the scope? AXSA (will eventually trade for AXMC)

* What cartridges will you be shooting? 308 Win, 6.5 CM (will eventually be shooting 300NM)

* What is your intended use for the scope? PRS, ELR, Hunting, Steel

* What type of conditions will you typically shoot in? Daylight, occasionally Lowlight and Nighttime

* What are the typical distances you intend to shoot? Mostly 100-1,100, occasionally 1500-2000

* Are there any specific specifications you would like? FFP, Mil, Christmas Tree Reticle

* What is the price range you can afford? <$4000

I have analysis paralysis. I think I’ve narrowed my preferences to NF, S&B, and Vortex. The NF and S&B because of their reputation for durability and military use, and the Vortex because of their warranty and CS. Reliability and durability are very important to me.

I’m considering the NF ATACR 5-25, NF ATACR 7-35, S&B PM II 5-25, and Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27. I plan to get the Tremor3, H59, or Mil-XT reticle. Maybe EBR-7C, but the lack of .2 mil elevation holds are a turn-off.

It seems like a lot of people say the S&B and NF are on a different level when compared to the Vortex, whereas between the NF and S&B it simply comes down to preference? I am planning on using holdovers at times, so glass quality matters. I think my current Burris XTR II has some curvature of field which makes it difficult to use the outer edges of the scope. Will I notice much of a difference in glass quality using holdovers between the Razor II, PM II, and ATACR?

I’ve read a lot of reviews on here and I don’t think I can go wrong with my choice as they all have their pros and cons. I’m not made of money, but I’m past the point of just getting the best bang for the buck and truly want to get the best. Just wanted to get one more set of opinions before jumping into the deep end. Thanks!

 

[beenjammin]

Good luck. Most is gonna be personal preference. I feel you cant go wrong with any of them. I say go with the one you can get the best price on. I picked S&B just because im a fan-boy. I like the NF turrets the best and the Vortex reticle.

I think vortex is the best bang for the buck, but picked S&B just because I like them.

 

[Basher]

ZCO.

But of your choices, I voted NF.

 

[koshkin]

Under $4k, out of your options, you should get S&B with GR2ID reticle.

ILya

 

[Penguins]

Funny vortex got the lowest vote on this, I voted NF but Vortex would be my close second. The scope above are superb and has excellent features and unique in their own way, You can't go wrong picking out one.

 

[MOUNTIC]

I would choose the scope that fits your rifle right now. Not necessarily what you want when you sell your rifle as that may never happen or you may go a different direction. But all those scopes can fit the bill in some way.

Because you mentioned hunting im adding some 3-20 scopes in the list. 4-20 ZCO, S&B 3-20US, 5-25 schmidt, 5-25 ZP5, used 5-25 TT, 5-27zco, etc all hold their value and would be excellent choices. The Razor on a budget, but still holds its own.

 

[littlepod]

I know it's not on your list, but where would March 5-42x56 fit, sitting at $4200.

 

[napt0wnc1ty99]

I’m in the same boat so I appreciate the responses here.

Comparing the Razor with the ATAC-R for those with experience, how much better is the glass quality on NF? I’ve only used a NF before but hear great things on the Razor.

 

[wade2big]

I’m in the same boat so I appreciate the responses here.

Comparing the Razor with the ATAC-R for those with experience, how much better is the glass quality on NF? I’ve only used a NF before but hear great things on the Razor.

The NF is just another scope. I own a few Razors and have used NF 7-35. No practical difference. None. If you want a NF get it. You will like it. If you want to save some $1500 get a Razor. You will like it.

 

[beetroot]

ZCO or Schmidt.

I believe in equipping AI guns with SB scopes. It feels right on all levels.

AI and SB go together like peas and corrots.

 

[Eric B.]

If'n it were me I'd get the PM II just due to its toughness and excellent glass. 2nd would br the NF ATACR for its toughness. 'Nuf sed.

 

[thexman]

If you have the budget, get the PM2 3-27

 

[SRPowah]

NF because I am biased.
S&B for the internet points
Vortex if you want to get more than enough performance at a discount. Only thing against it is the weight.

 

[MSTN]

I had a S&B 5-26x56 and a NF ATACR F1 5-25x56 at the same point in time some years back. On a resolution chart at 1000 yards, the NF clearly won.

Another shooter with an identical S&B came over and did a side by side comparison with my NF and my S&B. His verdict was the same.

 

[E. Bryant]

I believe in equipping AI guns with SB scopes. It feels right on all levels.

I don't disagree with that statement, and have owned a few different combinations of AI and SB PMII over the years.

That being said, my current AI rig wears a NF 7-35, which recently replaced a BEAST. Something to keep in mind is that the 7-35 "tunnels" below 8x, so the actual usable zoom ratio is less than implied by the name. The SB PMII also tunnels below 7x or so.

 

[pucker]

Because you mentioned hunting im adding some 3-20 scopes in the list.

Concur... hunting and nighttime, you’ll enjoy being able to dial down to 3x.

S&B 3-20US is a versatile scope IMO...smaller footprint allows for clip-on in front with still being able to reach the (clip-on) controls.... available with T3, and 20x is plenty for most shooting you’ve described.

PMII and 7-35 bring more max power, but as stated, their lowest power (7 and 8x respectively) isn’t ideal for hunting or night.

S&B 3-27 brings both ends of zoom spectrum, but it’s $$, and long.

 

[BikePilot]

Imo zco is another major step up and it's in your budget. Easy choice there. I'd put the PMII, NF, Razor, Kahles, etc as very similar, then TT, ZCO, and Hensoldt in the next tier up. Of that top tier only the ZCO is in your budget unless you snag a used TT fr the PX here (also a great option).

 

[goosed]

Sticking to the question asked I voted Vortex. All of those scopes are very nice and will work awesome for PRS/ELR/STEEL. So I went with the only one listed that checks my hunting likes: locking turrets, forgiving eye box and doesn't tunnel on the low end.


Not asked for, but if we're allowed to go off list that's my vote as none of the scopes in the poll are ideal for hunting in my opinion. I would even go so far to say that the AX isn't ideal for most hunters. In similar fashion 308 and 6.5cm in my mind are far from ideal for ELR. The AXMC in 300NM solves the ELR side, but it's an even bigger and heavier rifle taking you even further away from being ideal for hunting... Really hoping you have a stronger direction in your mind than wanting one single setup to do everything perfectly as there is no such thing as a master of all 4 (PRS, ELR, steel, hunting)... without knowing your primary usage, definition of ELR, hunting style/setup/quarry or where you're willing to make sacrifices it's easy to tell you all about the multitude of great scopes available. However, it's very hard to give solid advice that will really help you find a scope that actually fits you.

 

[Bb214]

I’d also say take a look at a zco 527. I had a pm2 then I bought a zco and sold the pm2.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Vortex by far has the best reticle. Out of the choices listed that would be it

Next would be a minox with MR4.

After that ZCO or TT.


If NF could come up with a good reticle, the 7-35 would be a killer scope. They have always had shitty reticles and not every one wants the t3 or h59.

S&B was the gold standard but their non 20 year old designs are right up there with TT pricing. S&B had the XR2 but has taken them over a decade to come up with a good reticle. To little to late.

Kahles 5-25 with SKMR3 is another good option.

The new March 5-42 looks pretty nice too. Expensive but one hell of a spec sheet. Need to get time behind one.

Warranty and CS still hard to beat vortex overall.

 

[Vargmat]

I have had both the Vortex Razor G2 and a Schmidt PM2 5-25x56. Never looked through a Nightforce 7-35x56.

I can tell you that the Vortex is a lot of bang for the buck, like many others have said. Glass is good, not great, it has some CA and is at its best between 15-22x if you ask me. Turrets are awesome though.

The Schmidt is badass from start to finish. Great to look through and is available with MSR or MSR2 reticle. Thats a solid choice right there.
Mine was used in the Norwegian mountains in -27 C and it never skipped a beat. Turrets are great, but very different to the Razor.

I also like the Delta Optics Stryker 4.5-30x56 HD scope, but I dont know if they are available in the states. I want to go touchy feely on a ZCO but have not had the opportunity yet.

 

[E. Bryant]

Concur... hunting and nighttime, you’ll enjoy being able to dial down to 3x.

S&B 3-20US is a versatile scope IMO...smaller footprint allows for clip-on in front with still being able to reach the (clip-on) controls.... available with T3, and 20x is plenty for most shooting you’ve described.

PMII and 7-35 bring more max power, but as stated, their lowest power (7 and 8x respectively) isn’t ideal for hunting or night.

S&B 3-27 brings both ends of zoom spectrum, but it’s $$, and long.

Lower magnification requires some careful attention to reticle selection. One of my biggest disappointments was buying a SB 3-20x with the H59 reticle. It completely disappeared at the lowest mag setting, and because of the piss-poor illumination, it was just about useless in twilight conditions.

 

[pucker]

Vortex by far has the best reticle.

If NF could come up with a good reticle, the 7-35 would be a killer scope. They have always had shitty reticles and not every one wants the t3 or h59.

S&B had the XR2 but has taken them over a decade to come up with a good reticle. To little to late.

Ugh.... here’s hoping this thread doesn’t deteriorate into a reticle discussion, like so many others have.

It’s been beat to death....you cannot choose another persons reticle anymore than choosing what color truck they drive. Too subjective.

 

[BCMulx]

Have heard of way too many people needing to use the lifetime warranty with Vortex. With that budget, I'd pick Nightforce and not look back. Not really familiar with S&B.

 

[pucker]

Lower magnification requires some careful attention to reticle selection. One of my biggest disappointments was buying a SB 3-20x with the H59 reticle. It completely disappeared at the lowest mag setting, and because of the piss-poor illumination, it was just about useless in twilight conditions.

Valid, it does need to be addressed...as a trait of FFP.

However, I propose that 3x primary function is not breaking out 0.2mil markings. It’s scanning. The FOV increase over 5+ power scopes is substantial.

That said, most reticles’ main stadia (incl H59) are still visible at 3x...allowing PBR shooting, and rough estimate holds, which should be all you’d need at 3x.

 

[M8541Reaper]

Huge fan of NF and have been using them since 2007 for all of the reasons associated with NF. That said, if I had $4k right now to buy another high end optic, I’d be looking at the ZCO w/ the new reticle, which is sitting at 3600 at Mile High. Never used one but based on feedback from people I trust the opinions of, I’d be willing to take the leap. Worst case, you can sell a ZCO for just under what you got it for and snag a used NF or SB. But if ZCO isn’t something you’d consider, then the NF with the Mil-XT. I went with that reticle in mine and it’s great.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Nightforce 7 - 35, at least you didn't put a ZCO in your little research project. I resent the fact that they want to so badly control the market value of their optic. They continue to loose ground to NF so much that they would rather give you a Spuhr mount rather than lower the price of their scopes. Dealers should be able to work with dealers at whatever price they work out privately. I respect free markets and that company is stepping out of bounds trying to support the price of their optics like they do. Anyway, enough of that.

NF is my new goto brand. Just ordered two 7-35s for my vudoo and my partners 6.5CM. Tracking, warranty and resell value is my reasoning.

 

[Thorbeast]

For me, it would come down to the razor or 7-35 NF. The razors are crazy cheap in the PX, and it wasn't long ago that they were considered peers to the ATACR and PMII. Personally, I'd go with the Nightforce, but that's just based on good experiences I have had with them, I've always been completely satisfied with them. Everyone says the PMII tunnels at about 7x, so it's more comparable to the 7-35x NF on the low end than you might expect. But for full disclosure, I have no experience with the PMII, so my comment about the tunneling is hearsay.

 

[E. Bryant]

Valid, it does need to be addressed...as a trait of FFP.

However, I propose that 3x primary function is not breaking out 0.2mil markings. It’s scanning. The FOV increase over 5+ power scopes is substantial.

That said, most reticles’ main stadia (incl H59) are still visible at 3x...allowing PBR shooting, and rough estimate holds, which should be all you’d need at 3x.

Agreed on the value of low mag when scanning.

I wish I had taken some through-the-scope pictures with the H59 in the 3-20x. Because it lacked heavy stadia to the outside of the main reticle area (unlike, say, the thick "pointers" in Nightforce FFP reticles), it doesn't provide any good center-hold reference point when zoomed all the way out. It's kinda like looking at a flyswatter from across the room. Now, if one could flick on the illumination and obtain a nice bright dot or cross, it might be usable in low light - but that's not how SB rolls.

Once again, not all reticles suffer from this problem at low mag.

 

[GIXXER2000]

The first thing find some who will let you look though each scope you have listed. Remember what looks good to my eye may not look as good to yours. Then is you were prescription glasses this will also change how the scope looks. To my eye the S&B look the best then the Vortex followed by the ATACR. All 3 scopes will work just fine for you requirements. Now the hard part, I like the H-59 for ELR shooting and the T3 for the rest. These 2 just look best to my eye when shooting. Good luck and have fun with your choice.

 

[jcheng]

I have both the ATACR 4-35x in Mil-XT and the Razor in the 7c.

Reticle is a wash and just depends which you like better.

The glass are really really good on both but slightly clearer on the ATACR where the Razor has a slight abbreviation around the edge at the highest magnification. The ATACR also has a slightly bluer tint.

The Razor is the easiest to get behind and a lot more forgiving!

Hope this helps!

 

[Fig]

I voted S&B, because I have the other two...

 

[pucker]

Agreed on the value of low mag when scanning.

I wish I had taken some through-the-scope pictures with the H59 in the 3-20x. Because it lacked heavy stadia to the outside of the main reticle area (unlike, say, the thick "pointers" in Nightforce FFP reticles), it doesn't provide any good center-hold reference point when zoomed all the way out. It's kinda like looking at a flyswatter from across the room. Now, if one could flick on the illumination and obtain a nice bright dot or cross, it might be usable in low light - but that's not how SB rolls.

Once again, not all reticles suffer from this problem at low mag.

It's definitely thin at 3x, but I'm still able to make out the center (T3 in this case...which is just an off-shoot of H59), and even the whole mil stadia (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc)....allowing me to rough estimate to the extent necessary at 3x.

For sake of discussion, I'll grab some pics for those that haven't themselves seen the T3/H59 series at 3x.

I'm also able to pick up illum as daylight wanes (not daylight bright though as you mentioned). Not so much in the H59 example you had?

What NF reticle you referring to w/ thick 'pointers'? If I was buying a NF 4-16, I'd be looking at the Mil-XT, and it's using .043mil lines...while the H59 appear to be .055mil on main stadia.

BL, it's definitely a balance for FFP scope manufacturers when zoom ranges are vast (which S&B does better than most). You can't have thick on low end without being absurdly thick on high end. IMO, they got it right based on reticle resolution needs at low and high zoom.

Edit: I know, I just talked a lot about reticles!...but attempted to do so in the context of low power zoom...which I'll reiterate should be considered based on OP's desired uses. He's not asking "hey, what's the best glass?"...thank God. And a 7x minimum isn't ideal for hunting, or night.

 

[napt0wnc1ty99]

Really do appreciate all the insight from everyone. One of the big reasons I joined this forum as I get more involved with long range.

 

[wade2big]

Ugh.... here’s hoping this thread doesn’t deteriorate into a reticle discussion, like so many others have.

It’s been beat to death....you cannot choose another persons reticle anymore than choosing what color truck they drive. Too subjective.

Yep. Its almost as bad as choosing a scope for them.

 

[86alaskan]

Played a similar game a little while back. compared lots of scopes in competition settings and in the field. the NF and SB are very similar, to each their own. Settled, or decided, on the SB PMII 5-25 with their new grid reticle. I'd have to say it's the nicest optic I've got, and among the nicer that I've looked through. While it isn't a Tangent or Henny, it's pretty damn good. The grid is everything you want, and not overly complicated to use, though it does take some getting used to. The GRID is what I think the H59 wanted to be, but wasn't. If given the opportunity, I'd buy another and unload a Razor or 2 to cover it.

 

[Vamike9]

I’m in the same boat so I appreciate the responses here.

Comparing the Razor with the ATAC-R for those with experience, how much better is the glass quality on NF? I’ve only used a NF before but hear great things on the Razor.

I own both and can tell you that IMO, the NF has better contrast, however both are very nice optics.
Best value is gonna always be Vortex, yet, if money wasn't factored, I'd choose NF.

 

[thehun]

If I were to do it again...I'd try a ZCO...but out of those three...I'd go S&B...

Another good option is Steiner M-series...

 

[goosed]

Agreed on the value of low mag when scanning.

I wish I had taken some through-the-scope pictures with the H59 in the 3-20x. Because it lacked heavy stadia to the outside of the main reticle area (unlike, say, the thick "pointers" in Nightforce FFP reticles), it doesn't provide any good center-hold reference point when zoomed all the way out. It's kinda like looking at a flyswatter from across the room. Now, if one could flick on the illumination and obtain a nice bright dot or cross, it might be usable in low light - but that's not how SB rolls.

Once again, not all reticles suffer from this problem at low mag.

This just highlights why matching reticle choice with intended use is as important as the scope itself.

I have the regular 3-20 with P3 (yes, that's an actual mil dot reticle without any new fangled hand holding lines and dots everywhere...) on a hunting rifle. With the 4 heavy stadia lines and human mind being so good at centering things it works just as well as a duplex reticle on low power for me. Not my video, but I included it below as everyone will perceive things slightly differently. If the stadia lines isn't good enough turn on the illumination and the entire middle section lights up like a cross. It's still a bit heavy in terms of weight for my tastes, but a pretty decent hunting scope/reticle combo, imo.

 

[cheyennewyo]

I would actually throw the Leopold MK5 into the mix regardless of intended purpose. The group I shoot with has used the Nightforce, Kahles, ZCO, and Vortex scopes, and we pretty much all shoot the MK5 now. The price is right in the range you are looking at, and the turrets in the MK5 are amazing and simple. While glass at that level is subjective, I would say the MK5 is right their with any of those brands and better than the Vortex. Reticles are completely personal preference, and the MK5 has some decent choices (we use CCH and H59 mostly). I don't care about weight as my MK5s are on competition rifles, but they are lighter than most of the other brands which is nice if you want to switch it to a hunting gun. We have had zero problems with the MK5 scopes and they track well enough that I can't measure error on a tall tracking target. Eurooptic.com usually has them in stock with some decent deals.

 

[deersniper]

I’m a big NF fans so I vote 7-35.

You can find 5-45 Benders in your price range also

 

[deersniper]

Try and get behind the scopes you want to buy. Preferably mounted on rifles outdoors. I’ve had bender 5-25 and 5-45s and my eyes prefer Nightforce glass

Ive heard bender described as brown and warmer and Nightforce as colder and blue

 

[napt0wnc1ty99]

I own both and can tell you that IMO, the NF has better contrast, however both are very nice optics.
Best value is gonna always be Vortex, yet, if money wasn't factored, I'd choose NF.

Appreciate the feedback. If I could find a used ATAC-R for razor price it would be a no brainer.

Dropping that subtle wtb right there

 

[E. Bryant]

It's definitely thin at 3x, but I'm still able to make out the center (T3 in this case...which is just an off-shoot of H59), and even the whole mil stadia (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, etc)....allowing me to rough estimate to the extent necessary at 3x.

For sake of discussion, I'll grab some pics for those that haven't themselves seen the T3/H59 series at 3x.

I'm also able to pick up illum as daylight wanes (not daylight bright though as you mentioned). Not so much in the H59 example you had?

What NF reticle you referring to w/ thick 'pointers'? If I was buying a NF 4-16, I'd be looking at the Mil-XT, and it's using .043mil lines...while the H59 appear to be .055mil on main stadia.

BL, it's definitely a balance for FFP scope manufacturers when zoom ranges are vast (which S&B does better than most). You can't have thick on low end without being absurdly thick on high end. IMO, they got it right based on reticle resolution needs at low and high zoom.

Edit: I know, I just talked a lot about reticles!...but attempted to do so in the context of low power zoom...which I'll reiterate should be considered based on OP's desired uses. He's not asking "hey, what's the best glass?"...thank God. And a 7x minimum isn't ideal for hunting, or night.

I don't recall what the T3 looks like outside the "typical" FOV - does it have some heavier lines that draw one's eyes to the center? Because the H59 in the SB 3-20 had nothing but a continuation of the fine (0.055 mil) primary horizontal stadia out to the FOV edge, and those disappeared at low mag in even decent light. Then try finding a target in front of a dark backstop as the light fades... forget about it.

The illumination on the H59 is just a handful of small dots - one at the center, every 2 mils on the vertical stadia (below the horizontal stadia), and then some reference dots on other areas of the grid. Combine that with the "meh" illumination of the SB 5-25x, and it's just not effective. I'd rather have the simple cross of the Mil-R, which at least provides a solid indication of POA center. The Mil-XT is better, and the Vortex EBR-7B lights up the whole dang tree.

When I refer to "pointers", I'm talking about the thick (~0.4 mil) parts of the Mil-XT stadia that sit outside the 10-mil hashes:

It's not perfect, but at least gives a chance of picking up the reticle at low mag. Vortex does this even better by providing a thick vertical stadia below the "tree" on the EBR-7B, SWFA does it with thick arrows on the mil-quad, Bushnell uses a ton of fine lines to thicken the outer stadia on the G3, etc. All of these techniques help draw the eye to the center at low mag.

You're right that these issues tend to be a non-factor when we're talking about smaller zoom ratios, and I owned several of the PMII 5-25x with the H59 without complaint.

Anyways, good discussion, and I'll turn this one back over to the intended conversation. OP, hopefully this sidebar conversation was at least a little useful.

 

[deersniper]

That ^ 100 percent that.

The couple Tremor 3s I have handled were fine lines to the end. Difficult to pick up

 

[acudaowner]

If I were spending that much on a new gun I would either go with the snb or a zero comp personally I would most likely end up with another delta with more mag and the same glass as the atacr for 1/2 the price saddly with less elevation and sfp and put the left over 1500 into ammo but if buying a nice gun the last thing I would want to do would be go cheap up on the glass not that it's what you are talking about doing there is nothing really wrong with a vortex but they are not the snb nor and for the money i have not seen anything that points that the atacr is superior to the snb maybe more elevation but nothing else but that's my opinion good luck which ever you get may they work as well as you want them to .

 

[bukico]

I had two Razors. Had to send both of them back at one point because they would not hold zero. I used an ATACR out at Todd Hodnett's over the course of a year and half on three different occasions and never had an issue with it (was the same scope and rifle each time). The same rifle is one of his classroom guns used by different Mil/LE units on a weekly basis in between my visits. Only had to check zero, make minor adjustments and was good to go. There are lot more features in the Tremor3 reticle that can be used for quick range estimations, movers and etc. Some of that depends on what you want to do with it as well. I ended up trading in one of my Razors and got an ATACR and have not looked back. Eventually, added in another ATACR as well. Again, have had no issues with the 2nd one. Haven't even had to check zeroes in over a year and half on them. They shoot great. Glass is slightly better in my humble opinion.

 

[GTjack]

I voted for the NF 7x35. Always FFP. Had the S&B. Too heavy. Just switched.

 

[Dobermann]

Have heard of way too many people needing to use the lifetime warranty with Vortex. With that budget, I'd pick Nightforce and not look back. Not really familiar with S&B.

Me too. Know someone who used to rep for V, and had far too many problems ...

I think I’ve narrowed my preferences to NF, S&B, and Vortex. The NF and S&B because of their reputation for durability and military use, and the Vortex because of their warranty and CS. Reliability and durability are very important to me.

Yep, if you've got one, you don't need the other ...

 

[Feif64]

Find a used Tangent in the px, picked mine up for under 4k. You will not regret it.