I hate asking these questions but here goes. Vortex gen2,Kahles k624 and NF ATACR F1 5x25. I know glass is subjective and all are built like a tank but what are the lil diferences that would make u decide? This will b used for long range hunting and some small prs events. Im having a hard time deciding. Thanks for any input,Dave
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Rifle Scopes Help me decide between these top teir scopes
- Thread starter DWilson
- Start date
I'd personally go with the razor gen 2. I've had 2 of them and a few features I like, especially for hunting are:
Locking turrets, so you never have to worry about you dials being off.
10 mil per turn turret, makes it easier to see what you're dialing quickly so you aren't off. And when hunting it can be a higher stress situation that, that might help with.
Warranty. Not to say the other 2 aren't good, but they aren't vortex. One thing I remind people is, when hunting, accidents can happen. I slipped and dropped my rifle on some rocks, dented the scope and they fixed it right up no questions asked and in a timely manner. That is such a great peace of mind.
One thing I will say, the gen 2 is a heavy beast. Maybe consider the AMG instead? Same features, just a lot lighter.
Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and say oh shit.....
Locking turrets, so you never have to worry about you dials being off.
10 mil per turn turret, makes it easier to see what you're dialing quickly so you aren't off. And when hunting it can be a higher stress situation that, that might help with.
Warranty. Not to say the other 2 aren't good, but they aren't vortex. One thing I remind people is, when hunting, accidents can happen. I slipped and dropped my rifle on some rocks, dented the scope and they fixed it right up no questions asked and in a timely manner. That is such a great peace of mind.
One thing I will say, the gen 2 is a heavy beast. Maybe consider the AMG instead? Same features, just a lot lighter.
Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and say oh shit.....
At this level, something is going to make or break a pick for you so think about what you want the most out of a scope. Reticles, weight, length, FOV, zero stop and rezero (for multi-cal setups), or simply the price. For me, it was reticle selection and a great deal so I ended up with a Kahles.
Any chance you can look through them all before making a decision? I wasn't going to spend the money on a top tier scope, but then went and looked through a Gen2 Razor. That sealed the deal for me and I placed my order for one last week. I liked the reticle and turrets and the price was workable. The weight wasn't a factor as I don't hunt, but it's definitely something to consider as suggested above. The AMG may be a better option for you if you decide to go Vortex.
Care to explain why? Im in the same boat as the op, looking at the same three scopes, so any info would ve appreciated.
I have a Razor Gen II 4.5-27 & a Kahles K624i 6-24. Used to own a Nightforce 5-25 ATACR F1. To me, the best glass, reticle, and weight for a hunting rifle is the Kahles. It is My go-to scope for load development too.
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I have had all of the scopes on your list. I sold all of them but the Kahles. The Kahles is my favorite scope to date. LSW SKMR 2 or 3 get my vote.
"but what are the lil diferences that would make u decide?"
For me, the "Lil differences" that made me go with the gen 2 razor was the turret feel, 10 mil turrets, the thinner open center reticle, the warranty, illumination control and especially the clickless "infinite" zero enabling an absolute perfect zero. All that with equal glass at much better price put it over the top.
For me, the "Lil differences" that made me go with the gen 2 razor was the turret feel, 10 mil turrets, the thinner open center reticle, the warranty, illumination control and especially the clickless "infinite" zero enabling an absolute perfect zero. All that with equal glass at much better price put it over the top.
I wouldn't say it's definitively better. Yes the glass may be better, but there are definitely things to like better about each scope as well because in this price range is more about preference than anything v
1) gen 2 razor - I prefer more space between clicks so a 10 mil turret is a definite bonus over the minox. Locking turrets are a good benefit as well for hunting. Second rev indicator is both tactile and visible.
2) Atacr f1 - the turret has numbers above the full mil as well as the half mil to make it easier to see where you are. Has both red and green illumination.
3) 624i - parallax built into the elevation knob for a central position. Left side wind is also an option. Second rev indicator is both tactile and visible.
None of this is to say the minox is bad by any means. There are just differences
Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and say oh shit.....
I love my ZP5. I wouldn't go as far to say it's better than anything on that list, except in glass, since certain features are more important to certain people. I've spent some time behind Hensoldt, S&B, etc., (no Tangent Theta though) and the optical quality in the Minox, to my eyes, is tops. The Minox image is sharp and free of any noticeable CA. The turret feel on the Minox is very good, but at 14 mils per turn, the clicks aren't as firm as something like the Razor 2, since it's a 10 mil/turn. They're still very positive and tactile, but the Razor is a touch more positive in its clicks. Tracking has been excellent on my scope and I haven't heard of any other users experiencing tracking issues. The Minox doesn't have locking turrets, if that's important to you. Turret layout is similar to most others, except for the Kahles. Minox has the traditional left side parallax/illummination, elevation on top, windage on the right. Illumination on the Minox isn't quite as bright as the Razor, but it's still very good and more than usable in low light conditions. Removing parallax on the Minox is very easy and I like that the parallax indicator is a triangle, rather than numbered for distance. The eyebox is very generous on the Minox. FOV is also very good. Warranty on the Minox left some people a little skittish because it specified the warranty was only good for the original owner, but a few guys have been the second owners of scopes and sent them in. Minox has honored the warranty even though they weren't the original owner. I believe Mike at CS Tactical said they are rewriting the warranty to be more in line with other manufacturers that have what amounts to a no restriction warranty. My Minox has the MR4 reticle, which I love. I really like the limitless zero function on the Gen 2 Razor. The Minox is the typical "loosen the set screws, spin the turret to zero, and re-tighten the set screws". The Minox also weighs considerably less than the Razor. Overall, the Minox is a top tier, Alpha-level scope that should be in the discussion when comparing other top scopes, but again, that depends on what features you're looking for or what you'll be using it for.
Edit: I also have the Gen 2 Razor on a second rifle, so I've compared the two side by side considerably. My experience with Kahles is limited to looking through a few at matches, but no real time shooting behind one.
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Just my opinion, but I think it's because the M series hasn't really been updated since they were released. I ran an M5Xi 5-25 for years and it's a fantastic scope. Tracking was solid, turret feel was excellent, the second rev indicator on the M5Xi will always be the coolest design ever. It's really a great scope, but it doesn't have the same optical quality as newer scopes and its reticle choices are a bit dated. You can get mil-dot, MSR, or H59 (which commands a premium on top of an already expensive scope). The MSR is a great reticle and their mil-dot is very usable, but newer Xmas tree reticles certainly make it easier for holding over elevation and windage simultaneously, plus I like the open center or center dot a lot of newer reticles have over the heavy center + the MSR has. You can find a used Steiner at a reasonable price in the Buy/Sell section, but I wouldn't pay new price for one when you have better options available.
Dave, please feel free to call us at 916.670.1103 and we can further discuss the Pros and Cons of each scope mentioned here and we'll do our best to help you in the decision
Interesting assessment of the glass. I'm not a scope whore, but I can't imagine it getting much better than the Military series. I believe they don't change reticles much, since they are designed more for law enforcement/Military use. Why change something that's not broke? Overall, there is isn't much to complain about unless the newest / trendy reticle is your thing.
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With closeout prices on the GEN2 Schmidt & Bender PMII your actually under budget... I believe Optics Planet has the P4F reticle under 2,200... This has been the king of tactical scopes for years, its a known quantity... Ive owned and used all the scopes the OP has mentioned, all are fine scopes, but if your looking for a deal on a top tier scope the PMII is a STEAL at those prices
I thought I had mentioned something about the purpose of the MSR, but I think I didn't like the way I worded it, so I deleted that sentence. The MSR is a purpose-built reticle, which as you said, is geared towards LE/Mil. It has a very specific function that it does VERY well. I ran one in matches for a while, but there are better tools for the job. The MR4 or EBR2C reticle make it much easier to holdover and allow for faster follow up shots. Make no mistake, the glass in the Steiner is very good, but it does not compare to the Minox, S&B, or even the G2 Razor.
We have some great options from Kahles right now, including some FDE AMR's and a SKMR3 details below:
More limited edition Kahles FDE w/ Sunshades in stock for $2,999.99 which is a $179.01 savings!
Kahles K624i 6-24x56 FDE LSW CCW AMR w/ Sunshade http://bit.ly/2rgKPaB
Kahles K624i 6-24x56 FDE CCW AMR w/ Sunshade http://bit.ly/2sub1MC
Kahles K624i 6-24x56 FDE LSW CCW SKMR3 w/ Sunshade http://bit.ly/2oyCElT
I guess they sold out, they're $3k at Optics Planet right now.
MHSA has the SuB PMII DT P4L for $2400.
Since I got my K624i LSW SKMR3 it stopped me COLD from even looking at other scopes. Only scope Ive ever had that I feasibly could see me using for at least a decade plus.
I had the ATACR vs Razor dilemma a while back. All three of those scopes are going to do what you need them to do. For me it came down to the reticle (the part you use the most!). Pick the one with the reticle you prefer and will do what you want in a reticle. It was razor for me.
Glass between the Razor & ATACR were pretty close to me, the Kahles was comparable to the AMG.
I prefer the SKM3 reticle very slightly over the Razor's EBR-2c, found the EBR-7 to be more of a gaming reticle and not useful for me, and dislike the current NF reticles.
The Kahles is the lightest, the Razor the heaviest.
Having owned a Razor, AMG, used the 624i (2 friends have them), ATACR (pretty common in my area), and multiple S&B...
I'd choose between the 624i, Razor Gen 2, & PMII based on reticle and other features you might care about that you haven't mentioned like weight, turrets, etc.
You're not going to go wrong with any of the them, just need to figure out which one best suits YOUR intended application.
I prefer the SKM3 reticle very slightly over the Razor's EBR-2c, found the EBR-7 to be more of a gaming reticle and not useful for me, and dislike the current NF reticles.
The Kahles is the lightest, the Razor the heaviest.
Having owned a Razor, AMG, used the 624i (2 friends have them), ATACR (pretty common in my area), and multiple S&B...
I'd choose between the 624i, Razor Gen 2, & PMII based on reticle and other features you might care about that you haven't mentioned like weight, turrets, etc.
You're not going to go wrong with any of the them, just need to figure out which one best suits YOUR intended application.
I'm not going to say that one is better than the other but I dont think they have the same glass, as far as I know the Razor GII is made in Japan, imported by pieces and reassembled in USA and the AMG is made completely here at Vortex headquaters but the reticle that is made in Germany and UK.
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