Saw some pictures in another thread and the Harrell looks pretty adjustable and to have “clicks”. Also looked at the EC2. What do you have and would you get it again? Will put on a tikka t1x and a cz457 when I can find a threaded barrel for it.
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Help me go down the tuner rabbit hole
- Thread starter USMC22
- Start date
They add weight to the front if you need it. They can help a good ammo lot, be better. It’s just another piece to have to worry about. I’m not sold on it’s repeatability. I’ve found reducing variables helps consistency. I have one on a CZ457 Lilja barrel.
My vudoo has one. I’m not sold on it all. The new rimx im putting together won’t have one.
F class comps are set ranges, no? OP is asking about 22LR T1X. Not BR material.
Just know that if you get one you will be doing a lot of testing. The proper way is not this 2 or 3 shots and move on deal. 22 ammo has so much inherent variance that it’s hard to see if the tuner is changing anything. Go look at the 6x5 thread… are all the groups .4 +/- .05. Nope. Many vary .2”. So when you change the tuner and you see a slight increase in accuracy that is most likely just statistics coming in to play. It will take a lot of shooting to verify the correct setting. Oh wait now it’s winter and the setting has changed…..
I will note the barrels I’ve tried the tuner on are MTU profile… maybe it’s easier to see something with a lighter profile.
I will note the barrels I’ve tried the tuner on are MTU profile… maybe it’s easier to see something with a lighter profile.
For 22LR PRS shooting, they are snake oil charms. They look nice though. Rimfire ammo consistency is the wildcard. Add short par times, wind, and multiple positions/stage, and tuners are a Gucci handbag in a 1978 single wide trailer.
A couple of things to know about Harrell vs EC:
(Edit: I saw a difference of 25% or so from "worst" settings to "best" settings with the EC tuner.)
The photos below are with RWS R100 ammo, which has shown a 15-shot ES of 15fps. I held straight up on paster for all shots, no attempted wind correction.
(Another edit: I dislike photos of one 5-shot group. I want to see 10, 20, 30 shots in aggregate. But, with this RWS ammo at $.42 per round shipped, I'm being stingy with it. These were first attempts at 200-400 yards. The two 400-yard groups were awful in the wind and ok in calm condition.)
- Harrell tuners extend out past the muzzle. EC tuners extend back from the muzzle to facilitate use of a brake (usually on centerfire rifles, of course).
- Harrell tuners clamp on the muzzle - no threading needed, but the muzzle diameter needs to be included when ordering. EC tuners have a bizarre .850x24 thread profile so they can sell you a 1/2x28 or 5/8x24 adapter.
- A buddy of mine machined a 1/2x28 adapter to which he clamped the Harrell tuner so he could screw the thing on&off his threaded muzzles.
- I just had my Vudoo rebarreled; the muzzle was threaded .850x24 so the EC v.1 tuner screws on with no adapter.
- I tried a Harrell tuner on my Vudoo with original Ace barrel (19" Kukri) and on my now-departed CZ-455 "Tacticool" with 16" barrel. After nearly two boxes of Center-X, I couldn't make the Harrell do anything pro or con with the Vudoo. But it made a very significant positive difference with the CZ.
- I had the EC v.1 tuner installed at Vudoo as part of the rebarreling (22" Bartlein, MTU). This tuner absolutely makes a difference. The barrel is pretty well broken in now with something over 500 rounds on it and I have settings that seem to work with the Lapua/SK and RWS labels I have on hand. I tune at 100 yards on an indoor range.
- Settings seem to be associated with velocity, which makes sense. With the EC, my setting "20" is best so far with Center-X, Standard+, R50, etc. with velocities in the 1085fps range. "16" looks optimal for the faster R100 ammo; will be interesting to see if this carries over to SK Long Range Match.
- I also have a KSS tuner which I've tried on multiple centerfire rifles and on my RimX... this tuner is a bit lighter than Harrell or EC and doesn't seem to be as effective. However, @Rob01 has enjoyed good success with the tuner and factory ammo.
(Edit: I saw a difference of 25% or so from "worst" settings to "best" settings with the EC tuner.)
The photos below are with RWS R100 ammo, which has shown a 15-shot ES of 15fps. I held straight up on paster for all shots, no attempted wind correction.
(Another edit: I dislike photos of one 5-shot group. I want to see 10, 20, 30 shots in aggregate. But, with this RWS ammo at $.42 per round shipped, I'm being stingy with it. These were first attempts at 200-400 yards. The two 400-yard groups were awful in the wind and ok in calm condition.)
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First off, if your barrels are accurate, why not have one or both threaded and try a tuner, you can always sell. I have bought 4 EC V2's, the 2 that I still own seem to work.
Though I do think on my Vudoo 22" MTU, that the ammo is tuned and not the barrel. I had hell with getting it to work, a switch to faster ammo seemed to do the trick. Luckily, I had bought a case of this Lapua Long Range and don't shoot the gun that much.
Now I did thread 2- 20" Kidd barrels and put V2's on them, I am still scratching my head as to why I did it. Both rifles shot excellent, and I wasn't asking a lot from them, they were just a means for the wife and I to have blasters that could hit small targets.
One afternoon trying to get one up and going, I bet I shot 400 rds. And the 2 shot method was out, any time I made an adjustment, the first shot was errant, if I removed the horizontal, the vertical was strung out, remove the vertical, now the horizontal was a train wreck. At a couple junctions, I thought I may have had it tuned, tested it with 5 shot groups, that didn't work so well. When I got home, spun both them off the Kidd's, cut the threads off and had the barrels recrowned. Sold both tuners.
I just bought another Rim X, I will try a Harrells this go, M24 contour barrel, but clamping something on a barrel seem hokey to me.
Though I do think on my Vudoo 22" MTU, that the ammo is tuned and not the barrel. I had hell with getting it to work, a switch to faster ammo seemed to do the trick. Luckily, I had bought a case of this Lapua Long Range and don't shoot the gun that much.
Now I did thread 2- 20" Kidd barrels and put V2's on them, I am still scratching my head as to why I did it. Both rifles shot excellent, and I wasn't asking a lot from them, they were just a means for the wife and I to have blasters that could hit small targets.
One afternoon trying to get one up and going, I bet I shot 400 rds. And the 2 shot method was out, any time I made an adjustment, the first shot was errant, if I removed the horizontal, the vertical was strung out, remove the vertical, now the horizontal was a train wreck. At a couple junctions, I thought I may have had it tuned, tested it with 5 shot groups, that didn't work so well. When I got home, spun both them off the Kidd's, cut the threads off and had the barrels recrowned. Sold both tuners.
I just bought another Rim X, I will try a Harrells this go, M24 contour barrel, but clamping something on a barrel seem hokey to me.
Curious what would you be testing? setting a tuner is not a magical art. if you understand that setting a tuner is about finding the optimum bullet exit timing out of the barrel. That optimum exit timing is the highest POI with your best lot of ammo.
One of the constant issues I read on the forums about using a tuner is that of using inconsistent ammo. you can't just use any random lot when you are first trying to find the best tuner setting.
On barrel profiles using a lighter or more flexible profile are a bit easier to find a setting, and it goes back to what I said about highest bullet exit meaning the barrel pointing up not down.
on your comment on the proper way to tune here is an example tuning a factory barreled Anschutz 1413 in a factory stock. in one tuning session (Jan. 2019) I found a setting of 90 and it still is at that setting. in Feb. 2019 at Lapua in Mesa this rifle shot a 11.86mm 10-shot group with the same CX I tuned with. 4 years now the tuner is still at 90 and being shot against Vudoos and custom BR rifles. the current owner still reports he is doing very well with the rifle. an example 100 yd. target 3 shots same tuner setting of 90 but with a different lot of CX.
Two things that are important with setting a tuner 1: Consistent ammo 2: a rifle capable of being tuned. requirement 1 is a no compromise without it you will be chasing your tail. number 2 if compromised, at best you may end up with a rifle that shoots really good sometimes and at other times mediocre.
Lee
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Yes, F-Open is centerfire and what I was eluding to, but in all shooting disciplines, even PRS, where most all guns, ammo and gear are nearly equal between the competitors, not using a tuner is leaving a performance advantage on the table you are not going to have if you don't use one and your competitors are. There is too much documented proof, both in video form and other means validating they work, they repeat and win matches....
As technology and rifles improve, people will keep upping their game. In CF, target sizes have continually gone down as bullets have improved that have a higher BC, reloading has gotten better with people running very low single digit SDs, and rifles capable of shooting consistently 1/2moa.
I think rimfire in the PRS setting will also get here as mainstream access to rifles that can consistently shoot smaller and smaller groups happen. A few years ago, the standard target size at 200 yards was like 6-8", and today it's 4". I can see sometime in the future it'll be 3", and then 2.5". That is a combination of ammo, rifle, and tuner. You can choose what you want to leave on the table.
I've done all sorts of tuners, and when I first started it was following the Benchrest crowd of tuning and all their mathematics with Purdy formula and positive compensation. I understand that theory in terms of timing the barrel with a weight at the end of the rifle so that the slower rounds can leave the barrel at a higher point and the faster rounds at a lower point. This should in theory reduce your vertical spread.
All of the well known Benchrest tuners are basically all that.. 2.5-3" past the barrel, have adjustable weights you can add on, etc. Holeshot and Harrell's are very popular tuners in that crowd.
In the non benchrest world we have a lot of tuners like EC, ATS that are at the muzzle, and extend out very minimally, like 1/4-1/2". I see some effects with the tuner, but it doesn't have the range of adjustment / weight that a Harrell's provides.
I think for the next few years, the benefit a tuner provides is probably not going to make/break any PRS matches, but I think when the average gear for all competitors goes up and the matches get more challenging and the targets get smaller and smaller, there probably will be a place for them on all rifles.
I think rimfire in the PRS setting will also get here as mainstream access to rifles that can consistently shoot smaller and smaller groups happen. A few years ago, the standard target size at 200 yards was like 6-8", and today it's 4". I can see sometime in the future it'll be 3", and then 2.5". That is a combination of ammo, rifle, and tuner. You can choose what you want to leave on the table.
I've done all sorts of tuners, and when I first started it was following the Benchrest crowd of tuning and all their mathematics with Purdy formula and positive compensation. I understand that theory in terms of timing the barrel with a weight at the end of the rifle so that the slower rounds can leave the barrel at a higher point and the faster rounds at a lower point. This should in theory reduce your vertical spread.
All of the well known Benchrest tuners are basically all that.. 2.5-3" past the barrel, have adjustable weights you can add on, etc. Holeshot and Harrell's are very popular tuners in that crowd.
In the non benchrest world we have a lot of tuners like EC, ATS that are at the muzzle, and extend out very minimally, like 1/4-1/2". I see some effects with the tuner, but it doesn't have the range of adjustment / weight that a Harrell's provides.
I think for the next few years, the benefit a tuner provides is probably not going to make/break any PRS matches, but I think when the average gear for all competitors goes up and the matches get more challenging and the targets get smaller and smaller, there probably will be a place for them on all rifles.
You’d be testing if your setting was repeatable. As I stated it’s not simple due to the fact there is so much variance in rimfire ammo (even good ammo). I’m not saying they don’t work. I’m saying they aren’t all that and probably more trouble than they are worth (in the prs rimfire setting). Bryan litz did a test with them recently and that stirred the pot big time lol.
Now shoot the same tune at 100, 150, 200, and 250. It shouldn’t have to be adjusted, no? Now do the same thing from a kneeling position off a step ladder. See what I’m talking about?
Tuner settings in red. 295-300 works, 325 and 260, very close on tuner, are NFG.
Harrell's tuner on a 1965 Remington 40XB with the factory barrel.
What would be needed group size for a consistent hit at 250yds.? also, what size is the target at 250 yds. I understand what you are saying. but if you had a rifle that is capable of shooting consistent sub-0.500 groups at 100yds. shouldn't it do good at 250+
Maybe I am misunderstanding PRS & NRL I thought hits and not group size is how it is shot.
Lee
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Anyone who can shoot 22LR consistently into 0.5moa at 100 will quickly become the shooter to beat in any discipline. As soon as anyone can show that consistently I will spend the $$. Even BR struggles to keep a 10 shot group average of 1 MOA@100 with 22LR.
This is where the tuner can help. the rifle that shot this group was tuned at 50yds. 7 years ago tuner has never been adjusted since. the lot that was used for the 50 shots was the first time it was shot in the rifle. granted this is a BR rifle but what I learned if the rifle is tuned. shooting at 100yds. it is all about the ammo and of course the shooter to call the condition.
FYI, the barrel on this rifle has at the time this was shot probably over 70K rounds through it, if not more. if this rifle can do it, I don't see why others couldn't either.
Lee
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Another good example that tuners will work.
Tuner settings in red. 295-300 works, 325 and 260, very close on tuner, are NFG.
Harrell's tuner on a 1965 Remington 40XB with the factory barrel.
Lee
If you are shooting for groups at 250 yards, does target size matter? You have the rifle and capabilities to find this out on your own. I have found that ammo at 50 yards may be terrible father out.
But sub 1/2 moa groups at 100 are damn right impressive!
Maybe to terrain feature, the range I frequent, I can shoot far better groups at 250 than I can at 200, It may be me, the rifle, the ammo, or the fact that my tuner is set to be better at longer distances.
What I have found if the rifle is tuned at 50yds. and you have a lot of ammo that can shoot sub.0.150 that lot should do good at 100yds. beyond that I don't see why the same lot wouldn't do well.
Lee
Positive compensation, where faster rounds and slower rounds line up it doesn't compensate so much that the slower round is going to be able to be above the faster round. So at 50/100 yards you're just shrinking groups. Smaller groups at 100 means smaller groups at 200,300,400.
I will say this, I don't believe 100% positive compensation is achievable. I do believe you can get a slower round to have a higher POI then a faster round by timing the bullet's exit from the barrel.
if you look at it in the simplest terms, logically a barrel will have a natural sag therefore a faster bullet should exit at a lower point of the barrel's upward movement. and a slower bullet will exit at a higher point of the upward movement. timing/finding the exit point so both fast and slow will be timed within a small enough window to have POI be near same as much as possible is what you want in a tuned rifle.
Lee
I think that tuners can be useful in some barrel/cartridge configurations. But with .22 and a straight taper barrel of .800+ I don't think they are helping much, at least not in the way I have seen many people test. Most of what people see in the differences between different tuner settings on those configs are just the random dispersions of small group sizes. If you are not comparing at bare minimum 20 round groups between tuner settings you are getting shit data and being mislead while wasting money and time.
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If your PRS rifle/ammo is precise enough for your game without a tuner - don't use one (i.e. 1.200" Bartlien). But if you are needing more precision from your system, and have the time, patience and available ammo(!), you can almost always improve rimfire precision with a tuner. Think about it - would the difference between .4 and .6 MOA precision never make a difference in PRS? (And if you are shooting UL BR, you are not going to be top competitive without a tuner and a tuned rifle. (BTW - I shoot PRS and UL BR.)
As for screw-on vs. clamp-on, ask any top tier gunsmith or barrelmaker what happens to the bore diameter when you remove metal . . .
As for screw-on vs. clamp-on, ask any top tier gunsmith or barrelmaker what happens to the bore diameter when you remove metal . . .
The only time I seen tuners not really help is when the barrel was not capable of maintaining the accuracy. both times they were damaged factory barrels.
barrel profile has some influence on how a tuner will be applied and mainly what I seen is how heavy the tuner will need to be. shooting 20 shots between adjustments is not necessary I use 3 shots and only shoot the 3rd shot if the first two are touching each other. only after a setting looks promising do I shot more and at that setting I will also shoot different lots to confirm the setting is good. for me a setting needs to be able to shoot random decent to good lots into the same group.
20 shot group after finding the tuner setting using only 3 shots between setting adjustments. barrel 3G BM .900. same rifle with a .850 barrel two different lots, tuner setting again found using 3 shot method. tuner target that was shot and how the 25-setting shot during the session. you will note I shot the two 5-shots group the following day after I decided the 25 setting was what I believed to be correct.
these are examples of using just 3 shots to confirm between each setting adjustment works.
the last target is testing the tuner setting before my first trip to the Lapau center in Mesa this was in 2016. currently it would be impossible to check your rifle before going to test at the centers this way since you won't be able to find any test lots. the results I got at the center 12.14mm @50m 18.58mm @100m. I left with nearly 4 cases of this lot that was the good old days!
Lee
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I think it can be done with a threaded barrel. but the approach will need to be like how they counter bore sporter barrels. otherwise, as you pointed out you can have issues with the bore at the muzzle.
Lee
The only issue with removing material from the end of the barrel is ones that are made with button rifling, cut rifling barrels are not affected by material being removed. Watch the Eric Cortina podcast with Frank Green from Bartlien barrels, Frank discusses this in great detail....
And I would venture to say that issue is more with the 1/2-28 threading and not if you got it threaded 5/8-24 or especially not with a 1.2" threaded to 1" for the ECV2 tuner. Those leave a lot more meat at the muzzle.
They said that they wouldn't go shallower than 3/4", which is why their tuners are .85-.875.
Yeah, that just makes sense to take the least amount of material off of a hammer forged style barrel....the billet 416 stainless barrels with cut rifling don't have those issues because that type of rifling doesn't induce stress into the barrels like a button cut rifled barrel has...Plus, on the 1.250" diameter barrels that they use, it's pointless to thread the barrel down to 1/2", especially with a large bullet diameter like a .30 caliber.
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I have 2 EC V2 tuners on my 2 Bergara B14R. The main thing about a tuner, is they will tune in your lot of ammo, then the next lot, then the next lot. I have tuned in 3 lots of SK Long Range, one after the other as I ran out.
Start tuning at 50 yds, Take the best and move on out. I shoot long range 22 lr. I moved to 200yds and fine tune for vertical. Get a EC V2 for the Tikka and a Harrell for the CZ.
I've often thought about that very thing, but the weird thread pitch and expensive adapter always steer me away. It shoots really well as is, and that's $250 worth of ammo instead.
Doubt the OP will have a 1.200" barrel on his Tikka, and for sure not the 457 (action not strong enough). Why not get a clamp-on (compresses the end of the barrel like a choke???) Harrell's machined tuner and avoid the issue entirely. BTW - have you personally measured the muzzle of any barrels that have been threaded, or are you just going by internet videos, which NEVER present a view favorable to the creator? (Personally - I don't care one way or the other.)
