Help Me Improve. How to Get More Precise?

[J. W.]

I want to add some precision to my reloading, and I read the sticky, watched a lot of YouTube videos, etc, but I wanted to get some opinions on equipment and techniques here. I’m not brand new to reloading, but there’s a lot I don’t know and I’m trying to improve.

A good load for me right now is around 0.6 MOA shot at 100 yds (5 round group). I don’t compete, I just hunt and shoot for fun, but I think I have a couple of rifles that could shoot under that, and I’d like to see if my groups are being limited by my reloads or by the rifle. Plus, I do want to eventually build out a precision rifle, and it’d be good to have a solid foundation in the reloading department already.

Current equipment is very basic stuff. A Rock Chucker IV, standard die sets from RCBS and Hornady, Lyman hand-crank trimmer, RCBS hand priming tool, RCBS Chargemaster Lite. I’m using a Hornady bullet comparator to get CBTO lengths.

I’ve been using segregated brass of various common makes, and I think probably buying some Lapua or other high quality brass would be step 1.

What I don’t know about is what is the best equipment and technique to resize consistently, with a high degree of fidelity to the chamber dimensions, while having consistent neck tension and concentricity. Bushing dies? Standard dies with the expander ball removed, followed up with a mandrel die? Do micrometer sizing dies make consistent shoulder bump easier? Obviously I’d say sizing is the area where I have the most questions.

Also, is all of that a waste of time if I don’t already own an annealer? Should that be my 1st purchase? I don’t mind throwing something like Remington brass away once it’s toast, so I’ve never bothered annealing. Obviously Lapua/Alpha/Petersen would be brass I’d like to get more loadings out of.

For seating, I think I’d like to go to a micrometer die and stay on the single stage press.

Any suggestions on equipment, brands, techniques, books, videos, etc? Trying to learn but there’s a lot of noise mixed in with the good info.

TIA.

 

[simonp]

What caliber are you shooting? What components are you using?

You could spend a fortune on new equipment which may or may not be necessary - have seen folks post on forums getting good groups using the equipment you have.

 

[Bacarrat]

There are so many ways to skin the cat on this. Every reloader has their own way of reloading. Basic equipment will work. But a chrono has helped me out the most in terms of identifying which loads to further tune. I usually go with the loads that give me the lowest SD/ES and tune the seating depths from there. There are other ways of tuning the load like the OCW and Satterlee method as well.

 

[J. W.]

What caliber are you shooting? What components are you using?

.308 Win: RP brass, 168gr Berger VLD Hunting, CCI magnum LRP, Varget/H4895/8308XBR.
6.5 Grendel: Starline brass, 123gr Hornady SST, CCI SRP, same powders as above.

There are so many ways to skin the cat on this. Every reloader has their own way of reloading. Basic equipment will work. But a chrono has helped me out the most in terms of identifying which loads to further tune. I usually go with the loads that give me the lowest SD/ES and tune the seating depths from there. There are other ways of tuning the load like the OCW and Satterlee method as well.

I do not have a chronograph, but can borrow one. I plan to get one ASAP.

 

[simonp]

A chrono and setting neck tension certainly helped me out a ton, in narrowing down which loads to pursue further.

 

[30cal user]

its like everything else in life......create a thorough process and take notes and put time and effort into it, use the internet to assist you, but create your own process with only changing one variable at a time.......with out going broke or getting divorced

get one good set of calipers and measure everything for the most consistancy possible for sizing/headspace, neck tension, case length, and a good scale for powder measuring

 

[OREGUN]

In my opinion, neck tension and seating depth make a real difference. CONSISTENCY is critical. Start with tier one brass: Alpha or Lapua. Use tier one bullets: Berger or if you are fancy, something like the hand made vapor trails. Talk to some benchrest guys about the current trends in primers. Quality comes and goes. When I started, some guys swore by Federal GMM but the benchrest dudes all used Wolf. Then it was CCI. Tier one components will be the most consistent inside each lot and then lot to lot as well. The rest is up to you.

So, I seat on an arbor press using chamber style seating dies. I like the feel of of a smaller lever handle (rock chucker allows a ton of force to go unfelt) and the ability to add a pressure dial to show me the relative force required to seat. Bushing dies and mandrels in various sizes allow for subtle changes in neck tension. Either way, I consider mandrelling the neck to be essential for consistency. The interior of the neck after tumbling but before seating needs to be considered too. If you wet tumble to absolute spotless clean brass, you will need to lube the necks before seating. I dry tumble (always for the same time, remember consistency) and let the carbon left in the neck act as the lube. However you do it, seating pressure, ie neck tension should be consistent as a result of your process.

In terms of sizing, you need to find a process that’s consistent. Pay attention to lube. More or less will make a difference. I like alcohol and lanolin the best of all the ones I’ve tried. You don’t need $600 dies but you can do some things like have a die cut from your fired brass that will be closer to your actual chamber shape and size. High quality, non-bushing full length dies like those made by Whidden or Warner tool, have become the standard for precision (think f-class) but guys did great with bushing dies for a long time and they do allow a little more flexibility as you work out how you want the necks to be treated. The concentricity as a result of sizing is very much up for debate. Some people swear it’s the most important factor, others say it doesn’t matter much. Personally I’ve used whidden custom and Redding bushing dies for a long time, I recently splurged on a SAC sizing/mandrelling combo die that seems to be really good.

You should be annealing. Buy an AMP. Remember, you want consistency. Every piece the same. You can’t get that without annealing.


You can weight sort or volume sort or whatever as much as you have time and components for but charge weight consistency, and neck tension, followed by seating depth are the places you can make real gains without losing your mind. It takes a lot of time and effort to go from .6 to .4 and 100 times more to go from .4 to .2. And only you can decide what you have interest in accomplishing.

Don’t blow your face off.

 

[straightshooter1]

.308 Win: RP brass, 168gr Berger VLD Hunting, CCI magnum LRP, Varget/H4895/8308XBR.
6.5 Grendel: Starline brass, 123gr Hornady SST, CCI SRP, same powders as above.


I do not have a chronograph, but can borrow one. I plan to get one ASAP.

A good chronograph is going to tell you how well you're reloading is being done. So yeah, I'd say that's a high priority.

The components you use are very important, starting with the barrel. If the barrel in only capable of .6 MOA, all your effort in reloading isn't going to improve that. Next, bullet selection; high grade target bullets rather than hunting bullets will make a significant difference. Then, finding and using the right powder and bullet combo for the barrel you're using. As far as brass goes, you can get RP brass to work well, but it'll take a lot of brass prep work; like sorting and preping them into a batch that is as uniform as possible. A lot of time and effort can be saved regarding your brass by simply buying quality brass.

The above can make much more difference than any change in reloading equipment you might have. Better reloading equipment can make small changes where the above can make huge differences.

 

[OREGUN]

Also, your question about a click adjustable, sizing die doesn’t make sense. The click adjustable nature of the die shouldn’t make consistency any better. It should just make it easier to adjust. The consistency comes from your process. Is all the brass from the same lot? Are you lubing the brass pieces the same way? Are you annealing? Those things will affect consistency. How your sizing die adjusts should only make it easier to adjust not easier to be more consistent. If the click adjustable mechanism changes its consistency, you should pitch it and get something else.

Case sizing in my view, is fairly far down on the list of things to worry about when you’re trying to improve your reloading. You just need to be consistent. Take a Once fired piece of brass and throw it in your rifle. You should feel a slight bit of resistance on bolt close. Assuming you do, measure the case and bump the shoulder back by two thousandths as measured with your Hornady tool. Try chambering it again. Repeat until you feel the resistance go away. Assuming you’ve been using a reasonably small interval in the changes, say two or three thousandths, you can stop right there and use that setting for your sizing die. I doubt you can find a measurable difference on target between cases that have been bumped 1, 2, 3 or even 4 thousandths back. Once you’ve done that, though, every single piece of brass that comes out of your sizing die should measure exactly the same length within whatever +\- you can measure to.

Results on target are ultimately the indicator of your reloading process success. A chronograph is nice but if you only have $1000 to spend there are other places to spend it. If you’re looking for ways to spend money, the Andy-scan is about the coolest chronograph I’ve ever seen. It’s way better than the labradar and handy as a shirt pocket in all the ways the others just aren’t.

 

[simonp]

Personally, if it was me, I would first start out with some new brass either Lapua or Starline depending on your budget and whether these are gas or bolt guns and some better tips, SMK or Berger - see what difference that makes.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Personally, if it was me, I would first start out with some new brass either Lapua or Starline depending on your budget and whether these are gas or bolt guns and some better tips, SMK or Berger - see what difference that makes.

Tips?
I'm assuming you mean bullets or projectiles...

Some guys around here call them heads.
I have no idea why.

That would be like calling primers go bangy whatsits.

 

[simonp]

Tips?
I'm assuming you mean bullets or projectiles...

Some guys around here call them heads.
I have no idea why.

That would be like calling primers go bangy whatsits.

Yes tips = bullets or projectiles

 

[max1840]

My advice to you is get a chronograph to record velocities, standard deviation and extreme spread. This will go a long way in evaluating the consistency of your handloads. From this point you can fine tune your handloads via neck bushings and expanders to affect your standard deviations and spreads. I would then add annealing however you wish to accomplish it. There are a number of ways to do it, some more affordable than others but you can decide that when you get there. Just so you know, .6 MOA for 5 rounds is a good group and when you get to the point of shooting this regularly you can start spending money to try to reduce it a tenth or 2.

Good luck and take your time in evaluating what you next step (purchase) should be.

 

[Baron23]

like calling primers "go bangy whatsits".

You mean they aren't???

LOL

 

[J. W.]

Buy an AMP.

Ouch. Might take me a while to work up to that purchase. I was thinking of maybe an ugly annealer or something DIY. Are those bad options? I know the AMP is king, but it’s hard for me to let go of $1600 and I don’t even own a rifle that cost that much.

your question about a click adjustable, sizing die doesn’t make sense. The click adjustable nature of the die shouldn’t make consistency any better. It should just make it easier to adjust.

Would it make it easier for me to dial in an exact amount of bump every time? That’s what I had in mind, but I may not have worded it very well.

 

[Bacarrat]

Annealing isn't a necessity. But it's nice to have though. It wasn't really even popular until maybe 10 or so years ago. And there have been plenty of people shooting small ass groups before annealing was so mainstream..... Doesn't mean I'm going to sell my AMP though.

 

[OREGUN]

Ouch. Might take me a while to work up to that purchase. I was thinking of maybe an ugly annealer or something DIY. Are those bad options? I know the AMP is king, but it’s hard for me to let go of $1600 and I don’t even own a rifle that cost that much.

Would it make it easier for me to dial in an exact amount of bump every time? That’s what I had in mind, but I may not have worded it very well.

The extra cost of click adjustable sizers has never appealed to me, personally. I just don’t think it’s that hard to adjust the lock ring in the traditional way and it only needs to be adjusted once for the life of a rifle barrel. But yes, theoretically, it should be as easy as clicking a few times and checking a case or two.

The AMP is expensive. I guess for me it’s the exact opposite of the sizer situation. I would happily pay the extra to have the simplicity and repeatability of the AMP instead of trying to figure out a flame fired solution. You should see if a buddy or a range member near you has one. It’s one of those pieces of equipment that lends itself to community use…low frequency, no consumption. Bring me a six pack of beer and you can do as much annealing as you want while we drink it.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Yes tips = bullets or projectiles

I know.

 

[Mike Casselton]

You mean they aren't???

LOL

Caps.

Come on, every gangsta knows that.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Ouch. Might take me a while to work up to that purchase. I was thinking of maybe an ugly annealer or something DIY. Are those bad options? I know the AMP is king, but it’s hard for me to let go of $1600 and I don’t even own a rifle that cost that much.

Would it make it easier for me to dial in an exact amount of bump every time? That’s what I had in mind, but I may not have worded it very well.

Once you set your dies they are pretty much good to go.
Lock the lock ring and put a witness mark on the die and the lock ring.

 

[Baron23]

The extra cost of click adjustable sizers has never appealed to me, personally.

At one time I bought a set of the Whidden click adjustable die rings for use on a Redding FL die. I believe that they work the same as if you bought the full die with the click rings. That is, there is nothing inherent to the Whidden die that would make the rings work better, as far as I could see.

I fucking hated them. First, they only adjust upward from flat...right, the inner ring can screw downward and raise the die up but of course can't go in the opposite direction from flat. And...now of course I'm no expert....though that has never held me back from holding strong opinions haha....I don't like how they locked or more to the point, didn't lock well.

This was a while ago...really beyond the event horizon of my 70 y.o. memory! haha

I far prefer the Horandy split rings with the locking screw tangential to the ring. Those I can lock good and hard, they have nice flats for a wrench, and I run a single stage press and have found when the die is screwed back in that its damn close to where it was when I pulled it.

Frankly, I need a turret press...I dislike screwing around trying to get a FL die set perfectly (and yes, I'm an anal perfectionist and easily frustrated...made for a hard life! LOL).

Cheers

 

[J. W.]

Once you set your dies they are pretty much good to go.
Lock the lock ring and put a witness mark on the die and the lock ring.

Well, on .308 I'm loading for an M14 and a bolt gun with the same dies. Maybe I just need to buy each a dedicated set of dies for each rifle.

 

[spife7980]

Well, on .308 I'm loading for an M14 and a bolt gun with the same dies. Maybe I just need to buy each a dedicated set of dies for each rifle.

That’s what I do. A sizer per rifle and a seater with micrometer top to be shared.
(Though check the measurements and see if they don’t conveniently match close enough first)

 

[OREGUN]

Well, on .308 I'm loading for an M14 and a bolt gun with the same dies. Maybe I just need to buy each a dedicated set of dies for each rifle.

You could get a fancy die for the bolt gun if ultimate consistency is what you are after. If you’re trying to do multiple chambers with the same die, then yes, click adjustable would be easier.…because of the need to go back and forth.

 

[Aftermath]

Well, on .308 I'm loading for an M14 and a bolt gun with the same dies. Maybe I just need to buy each a dedicated set of dies for each rifle.

Definitely.

 

[MarkyMark007]

this forum is full retarded. every second post here is about nodes and expencive equipement, which you dont need. most people here can't outshoot ammo made from Lee dies, so...

 

[supercorndogs]

^^^^^^^^^The very moron who told the owner of Bartlein barrels he was lying about not having "special barrels" for sponsored shooters.

The very moron who told the owner of ZCO their scopes weren't made where he said.

Every time you post I am mostly surprised you were able to find your keyboard. Although I know its possible you just threw a tantrum until your mom came down to the basement and found it for you.

 

[Doom]

First off, before you set out to spend money on upgrading your reloading equipment you should probably take stock of your situation. You've given us a lot of information but nothing on the rifles. You state you think the rifles might shoot better but is that realistic? Are the rifles six and a half pound sporter barreled rifles with piller bedded stocks or 9 lb heavy barreled varmint rifles with aluminum bedding blocks. The former is probably not going to be a 1/2 MOA 5 shot rifle consistently while the other is much more likely fit that description. Are you shooting a rifle with a 5 b trigger or a 2 to 2-1/2 lb trigger? What is your setup? Prone, off a bench, sandbag, bipod?

For the 308 I would suggest you purchase a box of Federal Gold Metal Match with 168 Sierra Match King ammunition. This is a universally accepted test ammunition for the 308 and if it shoots sub 1/2 MOA you will know the rifle is capable. I would also suggest you consider changing your bullet to the 168 SMK unless you are looking to shoot beyond 700-800 yds. I would also invest in some Lapua brass or similar quality brass. It seems expensive but its uniformity is what you pay for. It setdom varies by more than +/- 1 gr while cheaper brass will often vary by 2 to 3 times that. Use that for your precision loads.

Of the powders you have concentrate on the Varget or 8208 for the bolt gun. These powders should be a little more accurate than the 4895 (use for the M14).

I don't know if the Chargemaster Lite can be programed like the 1500 was but if it is don't try and load too fast. This causes variations in your loads.

 

[MarkyMark007]

The very moron who told the owner of ZCO their scopes weren't made where he said.

i was wrong only about that.

but about better and worst barrels; only retarded american consumer thinks that every barrel is the same. and nobody else on this planet!!

 

[supercorndogs]

Yea that why we pay the same for anyones blank, huh....

 

[Mike Casselton]

Well, on .308 I'm loading for an M14 and a bolt gun with the same dies. Maybe I just need to buy each a dedicated set of dies for each rifle.

Skips die shims could be your friend.

 

[Doom]

this forum is full retarded. every second post here is about nodes and expencive equipement, which you dont need. most people here can't outshoot ammo made from Lee dies, so...

Yep we're fully retard and like it that way so you would be better served on a more elite forum with your own kind. We are obviously too stupid for you to be spending your valuable time and talents here.

 

[OREGUN]

Well, we made it 25 posts until someone jumped out with the “you can’t shoot that good anyway” trope.

.308 isn’t traditionally a small group record setter but that doesn’t mean homey can’t refine his process, evaluate whether his equipment is efficiently providing the best results, reduce variability by using top quality components, experiment with both known-great powders and whatever else’s he wants to try, or consider whether different barrel, trigger, chamber, stock, rest, bag, or bipod changes might be needed to go from his .6” group to something smaller. So far, that’s what’s been suggested. And, personally, I think it might take all of that to make consistent, reliable improvement. But that’s the thing: we don’t know that he’s capable of or what effort he might be willing to put into being better. So…007…you aren’t helping, or even on the right track in this particular thread.

@J. W. If you want really serious group shooting advice from a group that set records instead of typed-sniper, mean-spirited nonsense, you should head over to accurateshooter.com

 

[supercorndogs]

Skips die shims could be your friend.

OR Redding comp shell holders.

 

[diggler1833]

Several members have already stated this: Thorough process and consistency are key.

I still use an RCBS Rock Chucker press, beam scale, and hand/manual tools. I feel like I give up nothing in accuracy...HOWEVER, my process is a lot more time consuming. For some, that time is worth a lot of money.

 

[Mike Casselton]

OR Redding comp shell holders.

Yepper

 

[J. W.]

@Doom , info on rifles:
The rifle that I think has the most room for improvement is a Ruger American Predator in a Magpul stock (I think I can hear the laughter right now from the competition guys , it’s ok, I don’t mind). It consistently prints sub MOA groups with multiple different charge weights in both 8208XBR and Varget. I lightened the trigger as light as it will adjust, which is probably 2-2.5 lb. The rifle probably weighs around 10-11 lbs in its current state with scope, stock, mag, and suppressor. If I’m testing loads, I typically shoot either from a Caldwell sled or from front and rear bags. I know it’s an “entry level” bolt action rifle, but I would like to see if it’s capable of more, so I want to make sure my reloads are not the bottleneck in the equation. I also have an AR or two that might benefit from more precise hand loading, but I’m mostly interested in the Ruger right now. If it doesn’t improve, that’s cool, it’s plenty precise enough for the kind of hunting we do, which is why I bought it to begin with. I enjoy reloading anyway and I’m always looking to improve. I enjoy it enough that even I f these rifles don’t have the resolution to see any improvements in my loads, I will eventually move up to something better, either a better barrel or a whole new rifle.

But that’s the thing: we don’t know that he’s capable of or what effort he might be willing to put into being better.

Thanks. So as far as where I’m at in terms of ability, I’ve been shooting my whole life, but not a ton of long range. It’s rare to find a place to shoot past 300 yds around here. That said, I’m an experienced enough shooter that, with my equipment, my shooting ability shouldn’t be the bottleneck if shooting off a bench at 100 yds. Now at distances where wind calls become really important, it’d be a different story.

 

[M4Jocky]

@Doom , info on rifles:
The rifle that I think has the most room for improvement is a Ruger American Predator in a Magpul stock (I think I can hear the laughter right now from the competition guys , it’s ok, I don’t mind). It consistently prints sub MOA groups with multiple different charge weights in both 8208XBR and Varget. I lightened the trigger as light as it will adjust, which is probably 2-2.5 lb. The rifle probably weighs around 10-11 lbs in its current state with scope, stock, mag, and suppressor. If I’m testing loads, I typically shoot either from a Caldwell sled or from front and rear bags. I know it’s an “entry level” bolt action rifle, but I would like to see if it’s capable of more, so I want to make sure my reloads are not the bottleneck in the equation. I also have an AR or two that might benefit from more precise hand loading, but I’m mostly interested in the Ruger right now. If it doesn’t improve, that’s cool, it’s plenty precise enough for the kind of hunting we do, which is why I bought it to begin with. I enjoy reloading anyway and I’m always looking to improve. I enjoy it enough that even I f these rifles don’t have the resolution to see any improvements in my loads, I will eventually move up to something better, either a better barrel or a whole new rifle.


Thanks. So as far as where I’m at in terms of ability, I’ve been shooting my whole life, but not a ton of long range. It’s rare to find a place to shoot past 300 yds around here. That said, I’m an experienced enough shooter that, with my equipment, my shooting ability shouldn’t be the bottleneck if shooting off a bench at 100 yds. Now at distances where wind calls become really important, it’d be a different story.

Hi Orygun, I reside in the same state as you west of Cascades and indeed it is a challenge to reach out to a flat 300m. HolyCr@p! So much technical info on this forum. I think I need to find the forum of “BlastersHide”

 

[High Desert duck]

@J. W.
The first thing that I think will shrink your groups is using high quality brass. If you’re using Winchester or the like you’ll need to volume/weight sort then cull. Try and make sure they are all the same lot. Also on your .308 load you might benefit from going to regular LRP instead of the magnums.

I had a hard time getting those particular bergers to shoot well myself so maybe while working up the learning curve try a good forgiving target bullet (Berger hybrid, Hornady eld, Sierra TMK.) That’ll take another possible variable out.

Equipment wise the stuff you have is good enough. But I would definitely add a chronograph. It can tell you a lot, but don’t rely on it for the whole truth. (It can show a load is bad but not necessarily that a load is good without large sample sizes.)
I would not spend my money on an AMP annealer at this stage in your reloading career. It won’t shrink your groups more than good brass. Just make sure the cases all have roughly the same number of loadings. If you decide to mandrel then I would go to a bushing or custom neck die. The standard sizer will create a lot of neck sizing and increase work hardening when you mandrel (the same as the expander ball is doing now.) I use a bushing die and go down .004 less than loaded ammo, and then mandrel up .002 under loaded (turning mandrel)

I don’t remember if you said you were bumping shoulders or completely resizing but if you’re not read up on how to bump the shoulder. It’ll help with extending brass life as well as accuracy.

 

[J. W.]

The first thing that I think will shrink your groups is using high quality brass.

Yeah, I went ahead and bought some Lapua, but I haven’t loaded it yet. Also bought some 21st Century mandrels and their die.
I think my next project will be building an induction annealer.

 

[MarkyMark007]

i see that you follow stupid advices and not smart ones. you dont need fancy reloading equipement to produce good ammo. like mandrells, annealer, bushings... but get comparator to measure shoulder bump - headspace.

if you want to shoot better, you must practice. time spend in reloading room is the least benefitial.

but the most important thing is to get best components.
GET: best brass (lapua, norma, rws, peterson...), good old tangent bullets from best producers (lapua, berger, sierra) - not VLD hunting bullets, best primers (BR or GM). powder is ok, but vihtavuori or reloading swiss is better.

shoot at least 10 shots per group, better 15. and if you are still in 0,6 MOA range, you are DONE.

but if you realod for hunting, than maybe your group is good right now.

 

[LR1845]

@J. W. so your shooting a $550 dollar hunting rifle and getting 1/2-3/4moa groups at 100yds with your hand loads using mediocre components and equipment correct?

IMHO that's pretty damn good and is probable about as good as its going to get with that rifle....can you squeeze a bit more out of your current set up? Maybe...BUT should you spend thousands of dollars to get that TINY BIT out of a $550 dollar hunting rifle? OR would you be better served taking that same money and investing in a better rifle? I mean your using cheap equipment and components and getting a cheap rifle to shoot pretty damn good groups.

 

[NH4X]

@J. W. and all new to handloading or not new. I suggest buying the book " Handloading For Competition " by Glen Zediker ,if one can be found . Its some of the best money I've spent .Learned a lot . I'm a better handloader ,having read it and following his advice . "Top Grade Ammo " also by Glen........haven't read it ,but " shooting buddy " says it's more of a " beginners " version of the first mentioned book. These books ( along with his others ) were self published by Glen.He passed a few years ago.......if you can find them,buy them......don't know if Glenn's sons will continue to publish them.

In the rabbit hole of handloading ,there many different ways to "skin the cat" ,the end result is a naked pussy ......some want a good tight,just right fit ,others settle for two dollar whore loose.........learn the difference ,then adjust accordingly to ones' wants,needs, desires. A tight group starts at/ on the loading bench. Enjoy the trip.

 

[Mike Casselton]

@J. W.



I'd recommend ditching the lead sled.

They are horrible for allowing consistent recoil.

Yes, they work to prevent you from being battered, but they hurt your group sizes.

Get a solid bipod and a really good rear bag. Your groups should immediately improve.

For an all purpose bag, I'd recommend a waxed Schmedium. It's very solid as a rear bag and is also ideal for positional shooting used up front.

 

[nick338]

i see that you follow stupid advices and not smart ones. you dont need fancy reloading equipement to produce good ammo. like mandrells, annealer, bushings... but get comparator to measure shoulder bump - headspace.

if you want to shoot better, you must practice. time spend in reloading room is the least benefitial.

but the most important thing is to get best components.
GET: best brass (lapua, norma, rws, peterson...), good old tangent bullets from best producers (lapua, berger, sierra) - not VLD hunting bullets, best primers (BR or GM). powder is ok, but vihtavuori or reloading swiss is better.

shoot at least 10 shots per group, better 15. and if you are still in 0,6 MOA range, you are DONE.

but if you realod for hunting, than maybe your group is good right now.

There's a difference between good ammo and ammo that shoots good at long distance and you would be wise to know the difference.

Shooting more makes you a better shooter, learning what works and what doesn't in the reloading room requires trial and error with quality equipment and if it didn't make a difference match shooters, elr, bench rest, etc wouldn't spend hrs fine tuning their process.

And if you're shooting 10-15 shot groups to verify .6 MOA at 100 yards, not only are you wasting time and money but it doesn't tell you shit about how the load performs at distance.

Good luck with tangent ogive bullets in a world dominated by VLD and Hybrid ogives.

 

[J. W.]

i see that you follow stupid advices and not smart ones.

???
I got the mandrels and die because I can use them on other .30 cal stuff, too, so it seemed like a useful purchase to me to ensure consistent neck tension. I’m thinking about an annealer because Lapua brass is about $130-$140 per 100. I’d like to get as much life out of it as possible with it being that price. $200-$300 invested in a homemade induction annealer ought to pay for itself by extending brass life in pretty short order, no?

IMHO that's pretty damn good and is probable about as good as it’s going to get with that rifle....can you squeeze a bit more out of your current set up? Maybe...BUT should you spend thousands of dollars to get that TINY BIT out of a $550 dollar hunting rifle? OR would you be better served taking that same money and investing in a better rifle? I mean you’re using cheap equipment and components and getting a cheap rifle to shoot pretty damn good groups.

You are probably right. FWIW, I absolutely would love to build or buy a better rifle. I just thought I might could wring a little more out of this one.
Maybe not. I’m ok either way.

I'd recommend ditching the lead sled.

They are horrible for allowing consistent recoil.

Yes, they work to prevent you from being battered, but they hurt your group sizes.

Get a solid bipod and a really good rear bag. Your groups should immediately improve.

For an all purpose bag, I'd recommend a waxed Schmedium. It's very solid as a rear bag and is also ideal for positional shooting used up front.

Thank you for that. I did not know that about the sleds opening groups up.

 

[Baron23]

???
I got the mandrels and die because I can use them on other .30 cal stuff, too, so it seemed like a useful purchase to me to ensure consistent neck tension. I’m thinking about an annealer because Lapua brass is about $130-$140 per 100. I’d like to get as much life out of it as possible with it being that price. $200-$300 invested in a homemade induction annealer ought to pay for itself by extending brass life in pretty short order, no?


You are probably right. FWIW, I absolutely would love to build or buy a better rifle. I just thought I might could wring a little more out of this one.
Maybe not. I’m ok either way.


Thank you for that. I did not know that about the sleds opening groups up.

Here's some free advise (and prob worth no more than that! haha).....don't listen to a thing MarkyMark007 says.

Cheers

 

[MarkyMark007]

???
I got the mandrels and die because I can use them on other .30 cal stuff, too, so it seemed like a useful purchase to me to ensure consistent neck tension. I’m thinking about an annealer because Lapua brass is about $130-$140 per 100. I’d like to get as much life out of it as possible with it being that price. $200-$300 invested in a homemade induction annealer ought to pay for itself by extending brass life in pretty short order, no?

about annealing you are right about longer brass life.
I was just saying that annealing will not get you better PRECISION.

but mandrells are useless step. it is this decade when everybody is saying that manderlls are the best for precision. like previous decade was neck sizing and runout... but both is proven to be useless.

Good luck with tangent ogive bullets in a world dominated by VLD and Hybrid ogives.

when you have cheap hunting rifle and want to have best precision is good advice to use tangent bullets. certenly NOT vld.
and short bench rest bullets are not VLD design.

 

[nick338]

about annealing you are right about longer brass life.
I was just saying that annealing will not get you better PRECISION.

but mandrells are useless step. it is this decade when everybody is saying that manderlls are the best for precision. like previous decade was neck sizing and runout... but both is proven to be useless.



when you have cheap hunting rifle and want to have best precision is good advice to use tangent bullets. certenly NOT vld.
and short bench rest bullets are not VLD design.

Did you just assume he just had a cheap hunting rifle? He stated he eventually wants to get into precision shooting and wanted to learn how to make his loads better.
Close range bench rest shooters are probably not using VLD bullets but I promise you they aren't following your advice on the equipment they're using for reloading.

 

[High Desert duck]

@J. W. Don’t get too hung up on the annealing. It’s good it’s useful but it’s not going to shrink your 100 groups by .2. I personally got lapua brass with 15+ firings and no neck problems. I have a buddy that shot a bunch before everyone annealed and he went 20 or so loads on his 6x47 lapua without annealing. There are still good he still has them m, just stopped shooting them we he changed cartridges. They were also shooting in the .4s regularly before he moved to the BR.

It will help with your SDs, but that won’t really show up until 800+ if you have a good load and good reloading practices.

In other words TLDR don’t worry about your lapua brass life spend your time and money shrinking your groups and no working on your loads and techniques. Once you’re shooting smaller groups then go the annealer route. It’s a luxury item.