Help me!! Rem 700 ungouping.

[7mmVertigo]

hey guys just got back from the desert with my 22-250 rem 700 shooting commercial loads nothing special. 3 weeks ago I was tac driving out to 150+ and now im ungrouping at 100yrds. What exactly is happening is all my shots are LOW LEFT. (keep in mind im using quality vortex pst optics with one piece base and good rings) okay easy adjustment right? 2 clicks up 1 click right... Next shot about 4inches right and an inch low. Now granted my barrel was heating up and in the sun we were experiencing about 100 degrees today. rifle was cleaned prior to storage last time out and the barrel has seen about 600-750 rounds (all commercial) it cant be this scope I literally have only shot this scope maybe 50-75 rounds. It could be I supposed but im hoping you guys can shine some light for me, is it time for a new barrel? was the barrel too hot? is it my brand new optics? please any body with any input would be appreciated.

Also my body shot it a couple times and it is shooting high for him. I just don't know. the gun is about 7 years old but I haven't even hit 1000 rounds yet on it. I did look down the barrel (unloaded and bolt out) and the rifling appears to be intact. thanks again for your time.

scott

 

[Captain Kirk]

Hard to say with limited info, all we can give you is "armchair diagnostics" at best. Here is a list of what it could be;
1. loose base or rings
2. carbon ring built up just in front of the chamber
3. damaged muzzle crown
4. loose action screw(s)
5. optics (least likely)
6. barrel shot out (not likely)

 

[demolitionman]

check scope mounts, base mounts, action screws

 

[nickforney]

How many shots did you shoot today? When you cleaned last did you remove the copper from the barrel? I have had issues in the past when I did a full clean on a barrel taking all the copper out with a quality solvent that my next shots would be sporadic until the rifling is fouled again. Could be any number of the things captain kirk mentioned but it might have simply been that you cleaned it. The first shots may have fouled the barrel back to where you wanted it and you had already started chasing the round.

More info on what you cleaned and then I would say check your base and rings. It is possible the optic was damaged in some way and is slipping but its more likely that you simply have something loose.

 

[RanchhandTCR]

Do you still have the orinal stock, when I use to live in az, my groups would go to hell with the heat on the stock.

 

[7mmVertigo]

Just to answer a few of the questions posed to me... I appreciate all the input. I checked all mounting aspects of the rings, bases, and action lugs to make sure the entire assembly is solid... its rock solid. Yes im still using the factory stock (with plans on upgrading soon). Yes last time I cleaned her out I used hoppes solvent and several runs with a good boresnake. so im sure I got everything out. let me throw this out there. my budy is an awesome reloader. he and I developed a load for this gun and have only shot 1 5x round group. (they where a sub moa group) now this ammo im having problems with lately is Winchester white box 55 grain varmit. and shooting this first so Im not wasting the money I bought it with and im saving the brass to reload with. does any of this have any impact on performance?

 

[Killshot44]

Changing from handloads to factory will of course result in differing points of impact.

Throw the Hoppes and boresnake in the trashcan or give it to someone with an AK. Buy a proper rod, boreguide, jags and patches along with a cleaner for carbon and one for copper - odd are the grooves are filthy.

You say you and a buddy "developed a load" but you've only shot one 5-shot group? If so you haven't done you're work yet.

Before your 2nd post I'd say scope failure. Run a Box Test.

 

[kylongshot]

id say you cleaned it too good and the barrel shoots better fouled. My gun shoots better dirty too and i only clean it when my accuracy falls off

 

[scudzuki]

So if I understand, you are shooting cheap ammunition and getting lousy results, whereas in the past you shot handloads developed for the rifle with good accuracy, and you are wondering where the problem lies?

There's a reason we spend extra money for match ammo or develop handloads for our rifles; because lower quality ammo is not as accurate.

My buddy shot a bunch of white box Winchester .308 and saved the brass to reload it. After FL resizing it I discovered that the wall thickness at the case mouth was visibly non-uniform and we scrapped it; it was not even worth reloading.

Joe

 

[7mmVertigo]

Hey everyone i appreciate the input and taking time with me. I'm gonna run a box test at a range and ill post my results. Take care and safe shooting.


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[demolitionman]

Winchester White Box shoots sub moa in my families3 different 22-250's. It was teh 45 grain stuff. If your barrel is a 1/12 the white box 45grainers should shoot moa...it does in my Savage bvss, my brothers fvss and my dads Browning Abolt, all 12 twists. If scope checks out fine, you might have a barrell that likes it dirty...

 

[JGorski]

Changing from handloads to factory will of course result in differing points of impact.

Throw the Hoppes and boresnake in the trashcan or give it to someone with an AK. Buy a proper rod, boreguide, jags and patches along with a cleaner for carbon and one for copper - odd are the grooves are filthy.

There's nothing wrong with Hoppes, I use it in my 6 Creed Bartlein, cleans everything out of that barrel, Frank Green from Bartlein suggested it so it's good enough for me. Id have your buddy load some of his finest fodder and go shooting.

 

[nickforney]

id say you cleaned it too good and the barrel shoots better fouled. My gun shoots better dirty too and i only clean it when my accuracy falls off

I guess many barrels if not most are that way. Im no expert but I was always taught that you want to shoot your barrel fouled. Its one thing to take the carbon out because the carbon is accumulating and that is what pits your barrel. But the copper in the grooves isn't really hurting anything and you can wait until you see a loss in accuracy to clean that out. But you need to fire a few shots to foul to get back to where you want to be.

Switching ammo should be a no brainer that you are going to have shifts in poi. I also don't have a problem with hoppes 9 but saying you put hoppes in it then used a bore snake is a no no. I would like to hear some peoples idea on what the much better solvent is.

 

[Sharpsman]

" it cant be this scope I literally have only shot this scope maybe 50-75 rounds"

Oh...is that so? Dude...ya need to rethink that statement! And then get the copper fouling out of the bore!

 

[nickforney]

I think that statement is a bit much. Maybe yes he needs to use a good brush and patch system with a good solvent to get the copper out. After that though I don't think that is really an important point. Im definitely not the pro but who know more about it than me have taught me that getting the copper out of the barrel isn't that key. At this point when he has been using hoppes and a boresnake yes he does need to get the copper out completely and start over but in general I don't think it is as big of a deal. He has already said that he checked the rings and base and everything is solid. I think it is more of a fact that he is expecting accuracy and constancy from mixed rounds and mixed barrel conditions. It would be one thing to clean the barrel of all copper and expect the same general poi or to change rounds and expect the same basic grouping even if not the same poi but changing so many factors should be expected to see strange results. I had a friend and coach who always said if you are uncertain of the results of a group just shoot more rounds. I think this fits this problem change of barrel condition fps and round simply means fire more shots to foul the barrel and hopefully get it back to a shoot position you like the change in FPS and round weight simply regroups and then move it.

 

[40xs]

I don't know why manufacturers are still making 22-250 barrels with 1-14 twists but they are unless you have special ordered one different. I have reasonably good evidence that your gun is 1-14 twist. they are only good for 50 gr. range bullets. I tried to sight in a friends gun for him with 62 gr. rounds and it was useless. So, what grain are you trying to shoot? Also, it could be that your barrel is approaching it's life's end as 22-250 is a fairly "hot" round, just saying maybe! Try lighter bullets and see how they fly for comparison.

 

[7mmVertigo]

Can you guys enlighten me a bit on why bore snakes are not popular with the hide? This is the first time I've heard anything negative about them. Just looking for some insight before I dump my entire gun cleaning box and start over. As far as bullet weight 40xs I'm shooting the 55gr white box. Thanks again for your time.


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[demolitionman]

Can you guys enlighten me a bit on why bore snakes are not popular with the hide? This is the first time I've heard anything negative about them. Just looking for some insight before I dump my entire gun cleaning box and start over. As far as bullet weight 40xs I'm shooting the 55gr white box. Thanks again for your time.


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Its not if, its a matter of when....when you get a bore snake stuck in your barrel, you will then see why I refuse to ever let one near my guns. A jag and a patch do all the work for me now. Bore snake= never again.

 

[Mac21]

Pertaining to the "Why no boresnake" question, one of our premium local bullet manufacturers here, GS Custom bullets, claims that he has observed that a high percentage of bores with oval aberrations have been as a result of the use of boresnakes. Any comments?

Thanks,

Mac

PS. Sorry for the hijack

 

[Frank]

A 1-14 twist 22-250 will shoot 52/53 grain bullets very well. It will also shoot short(flat base) 55's just fine. Even some 55 boat tail bullets. The Sierra plastic tip seem to be the worst 55s in a 14 twist. A factory 22-250 barrel can foul very fast. Shot fast in hot weather can make it even worse. If every thing mechanical is tight, then we're down to scope or barrel. A little copper won't hurt but a lot will. Add in a carbon ring and now bullet jackets start getting damaged and pressures rise quit a bit. I'd move the scope to a know good shooting rifle to eliminate it as a problem and then I'd get busy cleaning the copper and carbon out of the barrel. Good luck with your 22-250.

 

[JGorski]

Can you guys enlighten me a bit on why bore snakes are not popular with the hide? This is the first time I've heard anything negative about them. Just looking for some insight before I dump my entire gun cleaning box and start over. As far as bullet weight 40xs I'm shooting the 55gr white box. Thanks again for your time.


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Never used it buy my son does, he's in the Marines, guess it's a quick way of cleaning the bore, I like the ole solvent patch technique myself.

 

[Jedi]

I suggest that maybe you left ammo out in heat if sun
that will do some crazy things to your grouping
Also i would suggest bedding rifle and complete cleaning with something way stronger than hoppes
There have been several comparison threads on different solvents, that can point you in right direction
Let the solvent work, i,m not a barrel scrubber. Give the solvent time to do its thing, mostly i soak mine over night.
Never leave your ammo out in direct heat of sun, thats just asking for issues

 

[Red_Beard]

Just something to take a look at, but make sure your rings are torqued to 15in/lbs. I have heard other cases where over torquing on a PST can cause irregular POI shifts.

 

[Willyz_54]

I had a similar issue last summer in AZ with groups opening up. It turned out to be that what was a nice tight tolerance bedding job with free float in the cooler temps turned into a barrel getting slapped by the stock (mcm A3) from the extreme heat with every shot. I had the barrel channel opened up, and gave it a good cleaning and was back to sub MOA after a few fouler shots the next time out.

 

[7mmVertigo]

Hey thanks everyone for the input. No worries on the hijack I don't mind just glad to be getting some help. Frank I took what you said and I'm gonna run with it. Ill be setting up some time at range and see exactly where the problem lies.

Thanks for all your input safe shooting


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[7mmVertigo]

Okay so here's my break down. I went a head paid roughly 125.00 for quality cleaning products and dumped the bore snakes. One piece hoppes rod nice brush and jag set and went to town on the 250. I wanted to thank everyone for advising me to dump the snakes. I could not believe how much fowling and copper I was getting out of my barrel. Literally 43 cotton squares with good brushing technique and top I notch bore cleaner before I started seeing clean patches. Couldn't believe it! All this time snakes not doing shit for my barrel. Any way can't wait to take her back out and send some lead! Ill update y'all as to the performance change or lack there of. Again thank you to the hide! I love this forum!

Safe shooting

Scott


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[JesseSB]

Sounds like a good start and investment. Thanks for the update.

 

[classicshooter]

Torque check all your screws.

 

[garandman]

So if I understand, you are shooting cheap ammunition and getting lousy results, whereas in the past you shot handloads developed for the rifle with good accuracy, and you are wondering where the problem lies?

Joe

LOL....that's sub-MoA.....

WWB is blasting ammo only. Even the military (which with my tax dollars can afford the best in the world) only uses WWB for suppressive fire... I count myself lucky when it doesn't "keyhole"...

 

[TRTAC]

Its amazing what a good cleaning regiment will do for a gun. good luck!