Rifle Scopes Help Me Spend My Scope Money (4500 budget)

[mrobles3808]

Hello Hide Members,

I'm looking to outfit my AIAT with one top tier optic -- buy once cry once type deal. The nice thing about consolidating to one platform is I have been able to free up funds for one optic. I will be using the rifle for mainly target shooting, steel, paper, and hopefully PRS style matches soon.

I've have been doing a lot of research and my head is about to explode with the options available and I want to make the right "best" decision with this amount of money.

My priorities:

1. Tracking/Repeatability
2. Glass/Resolution
3. Warranty - I want to know I am going to be backed in case the scope fails. Cost of repair if I happen to bust the optic in a fluke accident etc....
4. Variable Range: up to 25x


I love NF optics and their reputation. Unfortunately I have falling out of love with their reticles and looking elsewhere.

Here is my short list of scopes I'm interested in and please feel free to steer me otherwise if you think I should be considering something different.

1. Schmidt Bender PM2 5-25 Gen2 XR (Is QC consistent now?)
2. Kahles Gen 3 SKMR (Tracking? How have these been?)
3. Minox zp5 MR-4
4. Tangent Theta Gen2

It's not necessary I spend all the funds, but I'm not opposed to it either. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[dinmax82]

All those scopes will be close. It really does come down to reticle choice and how spendy you want to be.

I have the TT because of the tooless zero feature. My other go to is the Vortex, I don't see myself spending more for the other scopes you mentioned unless they have a feature I just have to have.

That said I will probably sell one of mine when the SB 5-45 comes out, if ever.

 

[Stag556]

I'll preface my post with this... I've never used the scopes you listed. Why post then, right?! Lol. I only post to add the Vortex Razor Gen 2 to your list. Tracking on mine (I own 2 and I'm not sponsored by anyone so I have no bias) has been great and no matter what range I shoot, I always return right where I need to be. I can not compare glass so I won't comment on a comparison but I feel the Vortex glass is up there in the realm of the big names on this scope. The warranty is obviously great through them and I've never had to use it but you'll never buy another one no matter what you do to it, it will always be replaced. And lastly it hits your power range being 4.5-27.

The largest complaint (not mine though) is the weight but I didn't see you list that as a concern. Either way, good luck with the decision.


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[Fursniper]

About the only scope that covers your 4 points of interest completely (at least to my knowledge) is Vortex, specifically your warrany concerns related to a fluke accident. Drop your rifle down a
mountainside and bust it in half, back over it with your pickup, etc you're pretty much covered. I'm pretty sure the other scope companies would refuse a free repair (replacement) under those circumstances. I haven't had the privilege of looking through the TT or minox but I have the other two & the gen II razor would hold its own up against them at least 95% worth anyway. I currently shoot out to 2000 yards with one and am quite satisfied with the glass and performance. Having said that, if you want the best irregardless of cost, get a TT and don't worry about the warranty.

 

[CShooter92]

Although I don't have the experience that many other shooters here have, I recently picked up a Vortex AMG and absolutely love it. The glass is great. It seems to track very well (I haven't had it out too much to really test it out). Vortex Warranty speaks for itself. It only goes up to 24x but figured you might consider it since it is very close to that 25x you're looking for.

I debated between the AMG and the Gen2 Razor for awhile and what made me decide on the AMG was the weight difference. I realize this is going on an AI so weight might not be an issue for you but it's something to consider. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

 

[canezach]

Look for WJM's Middleweight Scope Evaluation. He compared the Minox, Vortex AMG, Kahles (I don't remember which gen he used), and a S&B. That might give you a little insight into what each scope brings to the table. I can't comment on the others, but I own a Gen 2 Razor and a Minox ZP5.

So far, I absolutely love my Minox. While there are more important factors to me, such as tracking, reliability, ease of removing parallax, eyebox generosity, reticle choices, etc., I think the first thing we all notice is the image quality of the glass, and the Minox has arguably the best glass I've ever looked through, including S&B. Mechanically, the Minox tracks true. I cannot offer an opinion on reliability yet, nor have I used their warranty. The Minox warranty is supposed to extend only to the original owner, but I've heard/read others say Minox has honored the warranty even if you aren't the original owner. The ZP5 is offered in 5-25, so it offers you plenty of magnification. Honestly, I don't think I spend much time at 25x. Aside from zeroing and any shooting for groups, I'm usually in the 12 to 16 range for matches. If you live near Colorado Springs, I'll be more than happy to let you send some rounds downrange through my scope.

Like others are saying, look into the Gen 2 Razor as well. Locking turrets and the ability to get a true zero are some added bonuses, plus you can pick one up for well under the other scopes you mentioned. The glass in the Razor is excellent. It might not be Minox, S&B, or TT level, but it is still better than 99% of the scopes on the market. The Vortex warranty is well known and their tracking is excellent. 4.5 to 27 gives you the magnification you're looking for.

 

[Kadams1563]

If he has his mind set on a $4k scope then he won't be happy with the Vortex due to him always thinking he could have bought more.

My decision was easy. I got the gen II razor for $1600 to my door.

So yea I didn't have these problems lol.


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[Covertnoob5]

In my experience I've had scopes similar to what you're looking at (S&B, TT, NF, Vortex, etc.) and the best, most robust, not going to break no matter how many times I spin it, turret feel is FAR and away my TT. Having said that I've never felt a minox or khales. I'm sure they're great, but I can't imagine anything being better than the TT feel.

My biggest gripe with TT is the complete and utter lack of reticles. I have the gen2xr and want to use the scope more than I do, but that reticle is just too thin for me (for reference my favorite reticle is the EBR-7). I'm considering getting it swapped to the gen 2 mil dot. In the S&B I love the MSR and I wish I could get it in my TT. Then it would truly be my favorite scope.
May I make a suggestion to include a Vortex gen2 or if weight is a concern the AMG?
Glass on both of those are up there with NF and S&B to my eyes. Only lacking to my TT.
Vortex has the best warranty in the business bar none and will go above and beyond for you. I've used them twice and both times it was a very pleasant experience. In addition, being that they are in Wisconsin and the turn around time is great. When I had a Gen 1 Razor I dropped it and bent the ocular as well as the mag ring. They had it back to me in 4 days. To me that was very very impressive.


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[Fursniper]

If he has his mind set on a $4k scope then he won't be happy with the Vortex due to him always thinking he could have bought more.

My decision was easy. I got the gen II razor for $1600 to my door.

So yea I didn't have these problems lol.


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Now I hate you.........

 

[bogeybrown]

I have several scopes in the $4k realm and after owning a genII Razor will never (famous last words) spend more for another scope. If weight isn't an issue they are the tits. The TT users swear by them, so if you feel like another $1500-2k gets you something then check them out, but I'm done spending that kind of money unnecessarily.

 

[gpo1956]

Pretty easy for me. Either the S&B or the TT. Haven't used the Minox, but have heard really ggod things about it. the Kahles would be big no for me. Push me and I'd have to buy the S&B.
For me, it's the ONE to have. I just really like them.

 

[hk dave]

I have several scopes in the $4k realm and after owning a genII Razor will never (famous last words) spend more for another scope. If weight isn't an issue they are the tits. The TT users swear by them, so if you feel like another $1500-2k gets you something then check them out, but I'm done spending that kind of money unnecessarily.

I'm kind of on the same boat. With the Razor Gen II and NF 5-25 F1, I found myself finding it really difficult to spend an extra $1500 on something else. I am often tempted by a TT, but given their reticles, I never bit. I just don't see a reason yet to spend more.

Which is great... because it'll make manufacturers step up their game. ;D

 

[beenjammin]

We will all have our opinions, but For Me:


1. Schmidt Bender PM2 5-25 Gen2 XR (Is QC consistent now?) MY CHOICE #2 - Jerry R in VA, Holds its value very well, proven track record... its a Schmidt
2. Kahles Gen 3 SKMR (Tracking? How have these been?) ------- Tracking tests were astonishing on the humbler
3. Minox zp5 MR-4 MY CHOICE #1 - Clear as crystal, crisp turrets, no tunneling, good reticle choices, TX service center, but ZP5 is still new
4. Tangent Theta Gen2 --------------- Great scope, but to me not 1500 better to me, bad resale market if you want to try something else might cost you, poor reticle options. better know this is the scope you want and stick with it.
5. Nightforce ----------- Great scope, great CS and service center, holds its value, BUT I HATE the ZERO STOP... Way overly complicated compared to everyone else.
6. Vortex Razor Gen II -------- Great Scope and warranty, Wonderful tracking, Bronze color only, Big ass turrets and heavy, ( AMG comes in black though)

others... USO and Leupold... just not for me....

7. Also Swarovski has the X5 and Hendsoldt but I dont have any experience here.

 

[AMAC79]

With that budget I would grab a S&B, but my choice would be the 5-20 Ultra Short. I have a Kahles Gen 3 with SKMR2 on my AT and it tracks perfectly, but I have seen several that did have issues.

I'm also a huge fan of my Gen 2 Razor, for myself and most people it is really hard to justify spending the extra $$ once you've spent some time behind one. If you got a Gen 2 Razor you could use the rest of your scope budget to buy 3 chambered barrels for your AI!

 

[FourT6and2]

I've used all the scopes listed, except Minox. I went with Tangent Theta and I'm glad I did. Been using it for about a year now. And I'll be getting another one soon for a second rifle.

 

[NukeMMC]

Been behind most you listed and the higher end ones have great glass, but to me, not worth the extra $1500-2000. Get the ATACR 5-25 or 7-35, the G2 Razor 4.5-27 or the AMG. The reticles sit perfectly on the boundary of simplicity versus utility and the money save goes toward ammo, components, match fees/travel.

 

[Nik H]

I have a few tier ones including the S&B 5-25, Khales, NF and I shoot an AT as well.

Love my S&B over all others for exactly the reasons you cite.

Thought about the TT as it looks like a quality product but didn't want to be an early adopter. I'd like to see some longevity in the company.

 

[flyright]

I've shot behind all of these with the exception of the Minox. My last purchase (month ago) came down to S&B, TT, Razor, Beast, or ATACR. I could not find a good reason for more than 25-27 power given mirage and usefulness at the 1200 meter max that I shoot. I ended up with my second ATACR 5-25x56 - 2nd most affordable and, in fact, I was prepared to spend 4-5 grand because I really wanted "the best" for my upcoming SRS A1. The ATACR has served me well on another of my precision rifles and I couldn't find a good reason to switch having used the others on some of my friends' rifles. I apologize in advance - I like the Mil R illuminated reticle. It is pretty cool for low light hog hunting and works well for punching paper. Just my .02...

 

[DetroitRearView]

Longtime NF user here, have owned te 5-20 Ultra Short, Kahles, Vortex Gen 2 3-18, 4.5-27 etc...but the absolute repeatability of NF keeps me using those for my primary rifles. ATACR MIL-R F1 on my AXMC, 2.5-10x32 MIL-R on my Blaser R8 300 win (saddle rifle/pack @ 10k')

For me, although the ZS is more complicated that TT and others it doesn't matter as my vertical zero on my AXMC 338L, 300N and 6.5CM are within .1 mil and the windage I simply turn left or right as required, entirely repeatable as I switch barrels.

Yes, I love SB glass but reticles not so much and for me the Turrets were less than desirable in the field. I would constantly over dial come back under dial etc in cold/glove kill the elk now conditions...hence the ATACR or the ultra simple but reliable NXS gets the job done with very tactile clicks.

 

[CSTactical]

Give Mike a call at 916.670.1103 and he can help you pick the right scope for you.

 

[Mute]

My own experience probably tracks closest to beenjammin's, though I'd put S&B as my number one choice. I'd probably place Hensoldt up in the top 3 as well, at least with the 4-16x that I had, with the NH1 reticle. TT scopes really works great, but reticle choice is non-existent and I really, really don't like the Gen XR reticle, YMMV. I've had great experience with the Kahles Gen 3s myself, but their lack of presence at SHOT Show this year has me concerned about their commitment to the U.S. market. Regardless, I don't think there is really a bad choice in your list.

I will add that for the S&B, I prefer the DT turrets over the LT/MTC turrets.

 

[ICU22250]

No experience with the higher end Schmidt or TT, but I love my gen 2 Razor 4.5-27 and my ATACR F1 4-16.. Great glass and are spot on with tracking and CS is great, if need be... I think when you start going above those kind of optics, the 2-2,500 dollar optics you really need to look at the extra coin spent vs what your actually getting that's actually that much better.. To each his own, good luck with your tough decision..

 

[mrobles3808]

Thank you all for your reviews and recommendations. Today I narrowed my search to the Schmidt and Bender and Minox ZP5. After having a mental debate for hours on end, I cracked and decided to take the Minox route. Thank you Mike (CS Tactical) for your help and patience.

 

[Terminator2]

I've never used the scope you've mentioned but have use Hensoldt, Zeiss and currently have the Vortex Razor gen 2 4.5-27x56. The Vortex has every feature I can think of, is built like a tank, and has great glass, though not quite as good as the Hensoldt. You might like to check this review by PRB...it shows what the pros are using in competition....and those guys don't like to lose.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/18/best-tactical-scopes-and-reticles/ Best of luck in your quest.

 

[1badbarrel]

Another for tt525

 

[gr8fuldoug]

There's lots of great options available.

Leupold will be releasing their new Mark 8 in April so you may wish to take a peek, https://www.leupold.com/tactical/sco...8-riflescopes/ and decide if this works for you

In the "You don't really need to spend nearly that much" area there's the Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 EBR-2C MRAD

Please always feel free to give us a call and pick our brains.

OH, called Blaser (the new distributor for Minox) and they said the new Minox zp5 MR-4 is not in stock and they do not have a date of arrival (which is probably why they do not even show it in the dealer price book at this time)

Thank you for your continued support.
If there is anything else that I can assist you with please let me know.
Doug
Camera Land
720 Old Bethpage Road
Old Bethpage, NY 11804
516-217-1000, 212-753-5128
Please visit our web site @ www.cameralandny.com
Long Islands Largest Camera and Sports Optics Superstore

Please visit www.PelagicOutfitters.com for your Fishing Tackle needs

 

[Glassaholic]

Thank you for sharing about the Leupold Doug. I started a thread on the Scout forum about US Optics and feeling a bit underwhelmed with their "new" offerings this year with their new B series that really just looks like some minor tweaks to the same scopes they've had for years. But I must admit that when it comes to overpriced and underwhelming Leupold pretty much owns the market. I've always been on the fence with Leupold, cheering for them as a US manufacturer and hoping they would make something I'd really be interested in, but they always seem to manage to disappoint, and the "new" Mark 8 looks like it disappoints once again. How nice that they are now offering it in 34mm tube instead of (or rather along with) the now rare 35mm flavor, really don't like those M5B2 turrets on the illuminated version - why not offer the M5C2 turrets on both?, if both 3.5-25 scopes are equal (other than illumination) and I did my math right, the premium for illumination is a measly $1690 (I could probably buy a better scope for the premium Leupold is asking just for illumination!), they still have the illumination tumor instead of inline with the parallax, they kind of mention an upgrade to the lens system but I've always been unimpressed with Leupold's glass quality for the price you pay, still charging a heck of a premium for Horus reticles and even their own TMR reticle has a $215 price bump over a standard mil-dot! Oh, and you get all these mediocre features for the wonderful price of $5000+!!! What the heck Leupold, you're not Schmidt & Bender and even Schmidt has dropped their prices. I'm sure there will be many Leupold fans out there who will defend their honor, but I just don't understand Leupold's strategy, they seem to be in the dark ages regarding design but in their own blind arrogance they think they make the best scopes in the world and therefore charge more than anybody else. Granted their street prices are a bit less than MSRP, but even with their generous LEO/Mil discount (about the only thing going in their favor, but they should extend this deal to Veterans as well) these scopes are still way above the average compared to other scopes in this class. Sorry for my rant, I usually try to keep my cool but when I went to the link Doug provided and saw that the scopes still look pretty much the same but come with an even higher price premium I was shocked to say the least.

 

[David Sauer]

Was at a 4 day LR course in October where we shot out to 1600 at all times of the day. Early morning to well after dark (taped glow sticks to targets in pitch black). There was a lot of great scopes on the line. Gen. II Razors, NF 5-25, S&B, Leupold Mark 6 and Mark 4 (no Mark 8), USO, and 1 Sig Tango 6 and I got a chance to look through all of them. When it got dark enough that every other scope was no longer usable the Leupolds were still going strong. It was amazing. It was significantly brighter through the scope than with the naked eye. The Vortex was actually one of the first to become too dark to use and the weight difference on two ideticle rifles one with a Mark 6 3-18 the other with the Razor was very noticeable. I've never owned a Leupold before, but after that I sold all of my Vortex scopes and ordered a Mark 8 3.5-25 non-illuminated.