Help me with MOA

goodgorilla

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 16, 2013
425
1
Lecanto, FL
I have a Nikon prostaff scope on my 22. I zero'd the thing to 50 yards and literally shot off the bullseye. On the scope for those who are not familiar, has several circles that represent crosshairs for further distance. The first circle is 75 yards, 2nd is 100, 3rd is 125 etc. When I took the rifle out to 100 yards, I used the second circle, then the shot group was 4 moa low. I adjusted the scope up 4moa, then the next group was 4 moa high. I have a few guesses to what happened here:

1 - The cartridges fired of lower speed than that of the ones used to make the scope reticle. But then why would adjusting the scope for 4 moa yield 8?

2 - Perhaps a combination of 1 and a difference in environmental conditions.

3 - After adjusting the scope, 4 moa up doesn't translate using the 2nd dot. This is the dumbest idea I have.

Edit: Hey! Check out what I found!

Adjustment Click Value: 1/4" @ 50 yards (1/2 MOA @ 100 yards)

So I shot 4 moa low, my click values have 1/2 value instead of 1/4th. So I should have clicked up 8 clicks instead of 16 to get 4 moa. Kick ass. But I should remember that when I move from 50 to 100 yards I need to click up 8.
 
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Instead of changing the scope "zero" just figure out your bullet drop and use the BDC circles. Here's what you need! Just look up your scope & plug in the load you shoot. My Nikon P-22 uses this system, so a 50 yard "zero" means the bottom circle works at 100 yards (actually not exact, but close enough).

http://spoton.nikonsportoptics.com/spoton/spoton.html

I don't think my bullets were selectable in the program. I was thinking about experimenting with the other dots in the reticle instead of changing with clicks. My guess was the bottom dot would have been to far. There is a good chance I will be shooting again this weekend to check it out.
 
Agreed, the bdc reticle a are worthless, unless you give a scope manufacturer your exact ballistic sheet, bullet, weight, speed, and so on and have them dial in the bdc, but then your stuck with a one load dedicated rifle, and when the rifle is used in different conditions your bdc went from being right on to close, and close isn't good enough
 
He isn't using a mildot. He's using that crap pie plate open hole'd BDC reticle.

If you want to make holds...get a mildot or milling type reticle with target turrets. Then you can do either holds or dial corrections.

That's what they are for. BDC have no clue what round you are using or how fast its going with your particular rifle. So how in any way can it do what it claims (thoughtless holdover corrections) out of the box? Answer= it can't.

I am building a 7mm rem mag rifle that will be using a mil dot SWFA 5-20 scope, but I don't know what a target turret is. I know what turrets are though.
 
Any mil-dot scope won't be "calibrated" to your specific round, unless you are just plain lucky. That's why the Nikon P-22 isn't correctly calibrated to your specific brand of 22 ammo. The only way you can be sure is to test your load against a known distance and compare the drop on your scope to the actual drop on paper. This requires a known distance, velocity, bullet and other things all working well.

A target turret can be machined (laser-etched actually) to tailor your specific load, velocity, bullet b-c, etc. etc. etc. to its calibrated knobs, so at a given range you will be able to "dial in" each shooting solution with precision. This is still not a be-all end-all, because you still need to calculate the range as a function of wind drift & bullet drop if the distance is different than what the calibration is for that knob.

That's why a lot of people who hunt will sight in 2" high at 100 yards (just an example) so they can use a standard hold out to a known point-blank range. The bullet will be on exactly at only one specific range, but in the real world, 2" above the point of aim, or 2" below point of aim is still a clean kill on an elk.

It just depends on what you're doing. Target shooting for a group or score, or long range shooting, demands a higher degree of precision & accuracy than plinking at close ranges with a 22. So the real answer is, as usual, it just depends....
 
A target turret can be machined (laser-etched actually) to tailor your specific load, velocity, bullet b-c, etc. etc. etc. to its calibrated knobs, so at a given range you will be able to "dial in" each shooting solution with precision. This is still not a be-all end-all, because you still need to calculate the range as a function of wind drift & bullet drop if the distance is different than what the calibration is for that knob.

That sounds nice, but can you use a ballistic calculator with the custom turrets? Like if your solution says you need to make 4 clicks, the 4 standard clicks would be different from the custom turret clicks? I really don't know what I am talking about, but that was my only doubt about the custom turrets.
 
What I meant was exposed turrets such as competition style or tactical turrets not a BDC style turret.

Any one BDC turret or reticle is a flawed system. Nobody wants to carry 10-20 different turret heads for every possible atmo condition they are shooting in.

Instead of hoping and searching for a way to have your equipment think for you, learn to do it right the way.

Learn to make sight adjustments and learn to how atmospherics affect trajectory.


Its not that hard.

Using a Mildot reticle with MIL (milradian) adjustments - YouTube

Using a Mildot reticle with MOA adjustments - YouTube

I was planning on using that system with my 7 mag, but it didn't occur to me that I could work on the technique with the .22 I may have to exchange out my Nikon scope and regurgitate the money for the Ballistics calculator. I'm having trouble finding a rimfire scope with mil dots. Do I put a centerfire scope on the .22? Maybe I could put my SWFA scope on it.

Found a rimfire with mildot, never heard of the brand though.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/72...ve-mil-dot-reticle-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding

This one looks good
http://www.opticsplanet.com/mueller-optics-4-5-14x-40mm-ao-all-purpose-tactical-riflescope.html

Only thing that concerns me is that the reticles are mil dot, but the turrets are MOA. Oh look, there it is on the 2nd video.
 
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Mildot hold overs

GG
I have posted this here before. I keep a copy of this in a football Quarterback play pad that is on my wrist, and also a 1/2 copy inside my Butler Creek cap....a trick from "the old days"
You can do this with no problem, using Word and JBM
This is for Wolf Match, but it works with everything...
This is .22 with a 50 yard zero.

dEMPJl.jpg
 
And you can "old school" it with MILDOT with MOA turrets...center of one mildot to another is approx 3.6 inches at 100 yards....round up to 4" for rimfire, it won't matter....out to 200 yards....and make your adjustments accordingly
 
Bro
Go to SWFA, get yourself a used Super Sniper with MRAD or MILDOT, the same price, but better quality.

I havn't found any rimfire SWFA SS yet. I'll look around some more, I think the parallax is pretty important at short ranges because I will probably be shooting varmints with it sometime. I am still undecided about getting a mildot scope for the rifle, but I'm like 80 % sure that I will be getting one.
 
yeah i agree with BDC reticle / turret stuff not being worth too much when shooting paper or small targets (critters). on large game with centerfires going for a 6-8" vital area, they have some credence for a more humane harvest than the poke and hope method alot of "hunters" use without actually practicing it before the season, or don't want to take the time to know or try all the mechanical / ballistic tools available to them.

midots and a SFP optic works well, but you still have to remember or note what dot to use on whatever magnification, reverse of what hold on what dot or in between on any magnification with a FFP.

but whatever way you go, you HAVE to shoot it to make sure. just because it says 1/4 or 1/2 at a particular distance doesn't really mean it truely is. arm chairing it using graphs and charts gets you in the neighborhood, but still isn't 100% when you want to get it home. then the weather changes (like DFOOSKING noted) and it all changes - i run 3 different dope data "brackets" and change the scope stickies and front page data book page accordingly - 1 for winter 25-45 degrees and 30% hum., 1 for spring and fall 45-65 degrees 60% hum., 1 for summer 66-86 degrees 80% hum, which gives me a decent amount of coverage for 4 season shooting / hunting. it's not perfect, but covers the general weather conditions for my area within the propper season.

there's also the masking tape / sharpie or label maker method of making your own custom turret. another reason high profile turrets are nice to have.
 
depends on how you look ballistic calculators and zeros, so i'm going with this:

to me there is no such thing as a true zero, once something is zeroed, it's zeroed but it's only zeroed for a certain "snapshot" if you will of distance and environmental condition. when an environmental changes, the POI (or zero) will change.

point of impact changes with changing conditions. so a zero at say 50Y 1 day at 30 deg will not have the same POI the next day if there is a dramatic change in environmentals whether temperature, humidity, or elevation above sea level. you are still zeroed at a certain environmental metric, just not being able to hit the same spot with the new environmental change as the baseline has changed.

the calculator will not / can't predict your zero for the changing conditions, but will predict your bullet drop and such based on the changed condition.

you can sort of manipulate it a little giving you some sort if zero compensation, instead of punching in 50Y for a zero, use 48Y or 52Y (for example) if the amount of difference equals that in real data. in other words, if during summer temps you are hitting perfectly at 50Y, perhaps in the fall or spring you may be hitting lower by a small margin. bring the target in until you hit the spot perfectly, whatever that measurement is, that's the new zero to use in your calculator. but again, there is some actual shooting and real data to be collected, like the old adage states "garbage in, garbage out".

in the previous example of "seasonal dope brackets" i know i have to adjust my POI (or "rezero" if you will) 4 times a year. it's only a relatively slight change at closer distances, but further downrange at 100+ yards it could mean an inch or two or more. from there, once "re-zeroed" (adjustment on the optic made on previous data from years before) then that is where the ballistic calculators come into play. it's almost like going from one ammo that is a certain FPS then changing to another with a different FPS - your zero and drop data will change.

i don't know what the weather is your way, but if it's the average winter conditions and before the next season gets here, zero your rifle / optic at 50Y (or where ever). note it. run your calculator, note the adjustments needed

in whatever you consider the average spring condition, "rezero" at the same distance, note the changes made to get to your "new" zero for the new season, run your calculator, note the adjustments needed for bullet drop for the new season.

in whatever you consider the average summer condition, "rezero" at the same distance, note the changes made to get to your "new" zero for the new season, run your calculator, note the adjustments needed for bullet drop for the new season.

for autumn, i've found it is sort of equal to spring as far as environmentals go, so i reuse the spring data after confirming it in autumn.

now your set for every year, every season thereafter, only having to make a few clicks of adjustments in elevation here and there to compensate for seasonal changes, just as long as you don't change ammos, scope, or anything else. while out there getting baselines each season, might as well get data on a different ammo too.

i've recently and finally have got a smartphone, i bought ballistic AE, and love it not so much for the ballistic calculators as much as for the rangefinding / leading / and rifle profiles that can be pulled up using actual data adjustments then applied to the gizmos on the screen. i can save a certain rifle profile ( i chose to create the same rifle ammo combo but with the 3 seasonal dope brackets mention earlier). whatever the conditions are, i simply "rezero" my optic a few clicks following my notes for the season or change of ammo used, then pull up the data for the seasonal profile. for 20.00 Ballistic AE is definitely worth having at your fingertips if you have a smartphone.

or use JBM, make your charts and print it out, and stick in a data book.

either way the only way to really know what's going on is to spend the time behind the trigger at actual distances and environmental conditions, writing it down, and using the actual data.

i've found that whether it's rim or centerfires, i may only use a ballistic calculator only once or twice just to get a rough idea, then use real field data the rest of the way. maybe i'll use the calculator for a distance in between two distances (say 75 and 100Y of real data) to get me an estimate of where my bullet may hit for 85 Y.

for even more accurate calculating, you have to know what your FPS actually are too. for instance using the SPOT ON for CCI SV 40gr, it's using 1070 FPS, through a chrony my real data it's going 1022 FPS through my rifle, and during the summer season. may not make all that much difference at 50Y, but 100+ i'd probably miss a 2" target relying on the calculator for BDC in the reticle. maybe not by much and it'd be in the neighborhood, but still not "spot on".

don't get hung up on depending on the calculators, or BDC turrets, or BDC reticles as gospel, you have to have trigger time.
 
wow that's a long post. I should probably finish reading it now. I bet you could write a book. I guess I will just write questions as they come to me while reading.

I've briefly looked over a ballistic program and it asks for questions like target distance, muzzle velocity, ring height, environmental conditions, zero distance. The zero distance gets me because that was taken probably at different environmental conditions than the one your going to calculating currently. Like you could have zero'd the rifle in rainy cold weather, then you want to shoot the rifle in the desert using the zero distance that was taken in a completely different environment. I'm not even sure how to ask the question, but you can see where I am going with this.

edit: I see that's where your going with the post.

Thanks for the information, I'll start using it pretty soon, but I'm not sure where to start. I should probably start with my mildot master. Sorry for using to many 'I's, but I almost forgot to mention that I have spent a few thousand on reloading equipment which I'll tailor some loads for the 7mag. It's gonna be fun.
 
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I havn't found any rimfire SWFA SS yet. I'll look around some more, I think the parallax is pretty important at short ranges because I will probably be shooting varmints with it sometime. I am still undecided about getting a mildot scope for the rifle, but I'm like 80 % sure that I will be getting one.


Like what was just said in another thread, don't get all hung up on a "rimfire" optic. Just get an optic! MILDOT or MRAD works with everything from rimfire to the USS New Jersey's 16" guns!
Also, what I did not say before is, most everyone here's rimfires are "trainers". You train how you fight, or compete, or hunt. So, get the same type system that is as close as possible to the same workings as your centerfire. If you have a MILDOT on your centerfire, get that. If you have a Duplex, get that. Then you will be consistant in both disciplines.
 
depends on how you look ballistic calculators and zeros, so i'm going with this:

to me there is no such thing as a true zero, once something is zeroed, it's zeroed but it's only zeroed for a certain "snapshot" if you will of distance and environmental condition. when an environmental changes, the POI (or zero) will change.

point of impact changes with changing conditions. so a zero at say 50Y 1 day at 30 deg will not have the same POI the next day if there is a dramatic change in environmentals whether temperature, humidity, or elevation above sea level. you are still zeroed at a certain environmental metric, just not being able to hit the same spot with the new environmental change as the baseline has changed.

the calculator will not / can't predict your zero for the changing conditions, but will predict your bullet drop and such based on the changed condition.

you can sort of manipulate it a little giving you some sort if zero compensation, instead of punching in 50Y for a zero, use 48Y or 52Y (for example) if the amount of difference equals that in real data. in other words, if during summer temps you are hitting perfectly at 50Y, perhaps in the fall or spring you may be hitting lower by a small margin. bring the target in until you hit the spot perfectly, whatever that measurement is, that's the new zero to use in your calculator. but again, there is some actual shooting and real data to be collected, like the old adage states "garbage in, garbage out".

in the previous example of "seasonal dope brackets" i know i have to adjust my POI (or "rezero" if you will) 4 times a year. it's only a relatively slight change at closer distances, but further downrange at 100+ yards it could mean an inch or two or more. from there, once "re-zeroed" (adjustment on the optic made on previous data from years before) then that is where the ballistic calculators come into play. it's almost like going from one ammo that is a certain FPS then changing to another with a different FPS - your zero and drop data will change.

i don't know what the weather is your way, but if it's the average winter conditions and before the next season gets here, zero your rifle / optic at 50Y (or where ever). note it. run your calculator, note the adjustments needed

in whatever you consider the average spring condition, "rezero" at the same distance, note the changes made to get to your "new" zero for the new season, run your calculator, note the adjustments needed for bullet drop for the new season.

in whatever you consider the average summer condition, "rezero" at the same distance, note the changes made to get to your "new" zero for the new season, run your calculator, note the adjustments needed for bullet drop for the new season.

for autumn, i've found it is sort of equal to spring as far as environmentals go, so i reuse the spring data after confirming it in autumn.

now your set for every year, every season thereafter, only having to make a few clicks of adjustments in elevation here and there to compensate for seasonal changes, just as long as you don't change ammos, scope, or anything else. while out there getting baselines each season, might as well get data on a different ammo too.

i've recently and finally have got a smartphone, i bought ballistic AE, and love it not so much for the ballistic calculators as much as for the rangefinding / leading / and rifle profiles that can be pulled up using actual data adjustments then applied to the gizmos on the screen. i can save a certain rifle profile ( i chose to create the same rifle ammo combo but with the 3 seasonal dope brackets mention earlier). whatever the conditions are, i simply "rezero" my optic a few clicks following my notes for the season or change of ammo used, then pull up the data for the seasonal profile. for 20.00 Ballistic AE is definitely worth having at your fingertips if you have a smartphone.

or use JBM, make your charts and print it out, and stick in a data book.

either way the only way to really know what's going on is to spend the time behind the trigger at actual distances and environmental conditions, writing it down, and using the actual data.

i've found that whether it's rim or centerfires, i may only use a ballistic calculator only once or twice just to get a rough idea, then use real field data the rest of the way. maybe i'll use the calculator for a distance in between two distances (say 75 and 100Y of real data) to get me an estimate of where my bullet may hit for 85 Y.

for even more accurate calculating, you have to know what your FPS actually are too. for instance using the SPOT ON for CCI SV 40gr, it's using 1070 FPS, through a chrony my real data it's going 1022 FPS through my rifle, and during the summer season. may not make all that much difference at 50Y, but 100+ i'd probably miss a 2" target relying on the calculator for BDC in the reticle. maybe not by much and it'd be in the neighborhood, but still not "spot on".

don't get hung up on depending on the calculators, or BDC turrets, or BDC reticles as gospel, you have to have trigger time.

Everything TOP said is 100%. He's The Man....but I will boil it down to one thing, as I am an old infantryman, and follow the knuckle dragging method of teaching....
For every 20 degree drop or increase in temperature from your zero day....add or subtract respectively, one MOA. Simple.
That will hit a 40 Inch torso at 1000 yards.....
 
Like what was just said in another thread, don't get all hung up on a "rimfire" optic. Just get an optic! MILDOT or MRAD works with everything from rimfire to the USS New Jersey's 16" guns!
Also, what I did not say before is, most everyone here's rimfires are "trainers". You train how you fight, or compete, or hunt. So, get the same type system that is as close as possible to the same workings as your centerfire. If you have a MILDOT on your centerfire, get that. If you have a Duplex, get that. Then you will be consistant in both disciplines.

I understand now, I have a BSA 4-14 mil/mil coming in the mail to replace my Nikon prostaff. I understand the difference between a rimfire and a centerfire scope, but I didn't know that a some centerfire scopes do everything the rimfire can and better. I thought the short range parallax was exclusively for the rimfire scopes, I got educated today on many subjects on the forums today, it's been very enlightening thanks to you guys.
 
If you have a scope with MILDOT or other "marked" reticles, check the software program located at Hawke Optics. Hawke Optics | BRC Really works well, even if you have to use manufacturer velocity and ballistic coefficient info. Really easy to range and quickly get on target. Even prints out a scope labels. I only buy MILDOT or "marked" reticled scopes.
 
I understand now, I have a BSA 4-14 mil/mil coming in the mail to replace my Nikon prostaff. I understand the difference between a rimfire and a centerfire scope, but I didn't know that a some centerfire scopes do everything the rimfire can and better. I thought the short range parallax was exclusively for the rimfire scopes, I got educated today on many subjects on the forums today, it's been very enlightening thanks to you guys.

Bro, we've all been there once....no denying!
 
Here's an update if anyone was curious.
1. I sold the Nikon prostaff
2. The BSA FFP came in the mail and I will be installing it shortly
3. I started learning about the mildot using this video series
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAbaBYZa8iI
4. I ordered the Kesterl 4500 with applied ballistics + blue tooth.

Seems like stuff is coming along, I haven't watched the whole mildot class series, but I got to the part about range estimation and found that really interesting. I have a range finder, but I'm going to try and learn to do it with the scope first. Lastly but doesn't have much to do with what I wrote here is that I have a magneto chronograph incase you wanted to give advice for that.

Edit: I put the scope on my 10/22 but haven't used it yet. As soon as I opened the box I got the feeling the Nikon was a piece of garbage by comparison.
 
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BDC reticles are simply a bad idea, for a multitude of reasons. I'm not talking about the ACOG BTW, it's awesome.

Conventional scope manufactures nevertheless produce scopes with their various BDC reticle notions since the concept is appealing to novice shooters. Thing is, the buyers of such a concept will not likely learn how to use it any more than they would be aroused to learn MOA, mils, angle shooting, etc.
 
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Yes, a range finder.

The idea behind using mildots isn't range finding. At least not anymore in the traditional sense of day to day shooting. People get this notion that "they use those dots for ranging a target". Maybe back in the 80's it was but now LRF's capable of acquiring a range a mile cost $500.

Hold-overs, hold-offs, holds for corrections and leads on movers...these are what a milling type reticle is for.

And then waaaaaaay waaaaay down at the bottom of the list is ranging targets. Mainly learned as a backup if the LRF goes down or environmental conditions like fog or heavy snow defeat the laser. Obviously in those conditions just seeing targets will be problematic. Mil-ranging especially at extended distances has +/- factor dependent on how good you are at eyeballing the measurement or even how well your particular scope's reticle is set up. Not to mention if the target's size is unknown or angled in your visual perception.

Mil-ranging as I said is a backup. An average LRF will flat out smoke anyone especially in terms of consistency over range let speed in acquiring the number.

DFOO.
Also, follow up shots.
 
Not to mention if the target's size is unknown or angled in your visual perception.

After watching the first video on the mildot class I posted earlier, I think it's possible to estimate a target's size using the mil dots. In the first video you see this triangle where 1 mil = 3.6" at 100 yards, 7.2" at 200 yards etc. Say you see a target 100 yards out which looked 1/2 mil, then that means they are 1/2 X 3.6" = 1.8 inches. But then again, you'd have to guess at the range so the whole thing would still be a guess. Pardon me if this is basic, I'm a beginner. Also, if I guessed the range, would their size not matter?
 
On another thread I started talking about this subject more. If you have a guessed size of an object you are firing at, you still will not use the translated mil value of inches. You plug in the estimated height into the equation, measure the height of the object in mils and that will give a range. It gets confusing because what if you wanted to find the height of something? You would have to have a given range or a guessed range in which both cases one would not use the mil translation to inches. I don't know why the mil translation to inches based on yards was covered in the video I watched, it really doesn't have anything to do with anything other being a technicality. About using the dope and firing, I don't know anything about dopes yet. I recently bought a chrono and kestrel/ballistic calculator to help me make them.

Like you said before if you miss, your still going to be thinking in terms of mils and not inches.
 
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Honestly, though, I had my RF crap out on my many days. Also, RFs are worthless in areas like Northern Europe in the winter, or even here in the US, or any rainy or snowy day. At the NTC, on a hot day we just kept them in the ruck and went old school. TRPs, range cards and sketches pre- during and post hides all using MILDOTs. Still have a giant list of everything we measured. We looked like a bunch of idiots at Benning one day walking around with tape measure's!
I know that is way out of the purpose of this forum, but I am very old school, don't even own a Iphone. I have seen tech die....
It is not a bad skill to have. Doof is right, RF, tactically are the way to go. But you always need a backup plan. And in line with this forum, will someone want to spend the $300.00 to $1500.00 for a good RF? Or buy another CZ 455 PT or better yet a 40X?
 
It is not a bad skill to have. Doof is right, RF, tactically are the way to go. But you always need a backup plan. And in line with this forum, will someone want to spend the $300.00 to $1500.00 for a good RF? Or buy another CZ 455 PT or better yet a 40X?

I went with the RF instead of a better scope. I kind of drool at the vortex ii scope that can zoom out to 27, but my swfa 5-20 can get the job done right. I need to start learning about dopes.
 
You don't need to spend more than $500 for a capable LRF.

Bushnell 1600 ARC are sub $500 and they capable to range vehicles/buildings at a mile.

And its a pretty weak argument that you can't afford another 455PT or 40X and ammo and not be able to afford a basic golfing distances capable LRF let alone one good for centerfire Long Range shooting.

That's an inability to wait/save for the moment you can afford it.

455pt or 40x? What are you talking about? Are those spotting scopes? I have a leica range finder.