Help, my 5.56 reloads suck

[SPRword]

Ok gents, hoping some of the experts here can help me. I got into reloading a little bit ago to try and bring down the cost associated with shooting my 308’s. I found some early success with my MK316 clone loads, and figured since I already had the press and a ton of old brass, I might as well try my hand at some 5.56 loading.

To begin with - I am not looking for match grade accuracy here, just decent range ammo and something to store away. I’m using mixed headstamp 5.56 brass, 55gr Armscor bullets, Remington SRB primers, and Ramshot TAC powder, all loaded to 2.25 COAL to match M193. I’ve tried quite a few different charge weights between 24.5 and 26 grs and honestly I’m pretty disgusted with my results. I have not been able to get a single 5 shot group, suppresses or unsuppressed, through any rifle or barrel (all of which are very decent - Geissele, Rainier CHF/CL Mountain, Colt SOCOM, etc) to measure less than 3.3 MOA. Most are between 4-5 MOA.

What am I missing here? Are these Armscor bullets just that bad? They were certainly cheap, but 4-5 minutes seems terrible to me. I haven’t crimped any of them, but that’s the next variable for me to test. I’m also planning on trying to bring my OAL back in to the book minimum of 2.20 after running it all the way out to 2.26 with no improvement. For context, my Rainier barrel shoots 2.7 minute groups with M193, .75 minute groups with MK262 and about 1 minute with some cheap 77gr Reman loads.

I’m just looking for a decent range load that will print 2-2.75 MOA groups like M193 will and that will come close to it in terms of velocity. Is that too much to ask for from mixed brass and cheap bullets? If not, is it this TAC powder? The lack of a crimp? Appreciate any advice you guys have. If these don’t print I can always chew them up at the 25 yard line, but it would be nice to make something decent with the rest of these bullets and brass.

 

[simonp]

Never tried armscor bullets so that may be the issue.......

I load Hornady 55's in mixed HS Lake City brass, CCI 400's and using either AR Comp or one of the two Shooters World powders for AR / 5.56 I can get loads that shoot 1" MOA at 100. I am shooting out of WOA barrels.

 

[smoothy8500]

What am I missing here? Are these Armscor bullets just that bad?

Well, yeah. Sometimes it's just one barrel doesn't like them, but in your case, all the (good) barrels don't like them. No sense in trying other powders in the hope of finding a magic combo.

Hornady are probably the most consistent fmj performers.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Junk bullets make junk ammo

 

[diggler1833]

the fact that you are having abysmal results with multiple barrels is pretty telling.

Ditch the Armscor bullets until you find a proven load in the other barrels, and then you can try swapping the bullets back...but I'm pretty sure the results will go back too.

Shooting the cheapest of the cheapest bullets and powder is only going to exacerbate poor consistency in results (TAC isn't helping the situation).

Best of luck.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I have several excellent loads with TAC with 3 different bullets. TAC isn't the issue. The crappy bullets with mixed brass is the issue, and 90% of that crap is the bullets.

 

[sheepdog697]

I would say armscor are probably one if the lowest quality bullets you can buy... try hornady 55gr and see how that does

 

[simonp]

I would say armscor are probably one if the lowest quality bullets you can buy... try hornady 55gr and see how that does

Agreed
Tac is or can be great depending on bullet & barrel.

Armsocor and privi partisan tips are the lowest of the low.

But some boxes of different higher grade 55’s and see how they shoot.

 

[SPRword]

At least I’m not going crazy. I guess the remaining bullets I have can get burned up on steel and I can try some Hornady 55’s with the left over brass. I was hoping I could whip up an M193 equivalent load for less than what reman ammo costs, but that might not be in the cards. With the cost for even cheap components like this, it’s almost not worth reloading 5.56 unless it’s the heavier stuff. Maybe that’s a better use of my left over brass anyway.

 

[.505gibbs]

25.5 grains of H335 is the go to for 55 grain 556 ammo. Always had good luck with Tac and 77 smk’s

 

[Bmghunter]

I read mix headstamp brass. Try shooting groups using the same headstamp brass. Just separate out your reloads by headstamp and shoot them together. Mix headstamp is the first problem, maybe biggest?

 

[tekmann2377]

I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the results using some better bullets. You also try some other heavier bullets (IE Hornady 75 BTHP) along with the Hornady 55's, since TAC is suitable for those as well. Both the SP and FMJ-BT shoot pretty well for cheap bullets.

Trying to get bad bullets to shoot is an exercise in futility. Of the primer, case, powder, and bullet as the components of ammo, bullets are without a doubt the most important component for accuracy.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Honestly, don't try anything else with those bullets, just get some 75gr BTHP hornady and I bet you see a massive improvement. As has been said, there's some other Hornady 55gr and such that should also do well but the 75bthp is an inexpensive bullet that always performs well with 223. If you are looking for speed and lighter weight go with the 55gr. It's just not worth messing with the crappy bullets. Use em for a pistol set up to blast with at 25 yards like you said or just chunk em. With powder and primers being so expensive now, it's not worth messing with crap bullets

 

[BipThatInstance]

The Armscor bullets suck ass, I had the same issues in the past.

I'm still pulling down from a 5K case of Hornady 55gr FMJBT w/ C blems from Misdsouth and don't have those issues.

To be sure Id dial that COAL to min, and use consistent head stamps. Weigh and measure out batches of the bullets too. You may be able to salvage a decent load. Do a batch crimped too

Id have a control 10 shot group with some m193 garbage clone, if nothing else to get the barrels warmed up a bit.

I don't use TAC for 556/223, I use H335 with 22.5gr but TAC wouldnt be the issue here. Still, to be sure, order some Barnes, Bergers or Hornady pills to try out a load of them

Any issues persisting beyond elimination of shitty variables and bad pills is either on you or the barrels.

 

[Basic user]

Yea, get rid of both the bullets and the brass BUT, if you have access to a high end scale, try this - weight batch 15 bullets to the tightest tolerance you can get them to with this scale, then, take 15 cases of the same headstamp (year, make, model) and load a load ladder in 3 round groups, beginning with the lowest charge weight in your manual, working up in .3 grain increments. I say 15 cases in .3 gr. increments so as to not waste time and components screwing around with 50 round batches, only to find the entire load ladder sucked dick.
Load those up using your best effort (weigh EVERY charge, measure EVERY base to ogive [obviously within coal mag length) and see what happens. Make sure your barrel's cleaned to bare metal with no fouling or copper. Make sure to load a few barrel foulers along with that batch.
Assume a good firing position, warm up the barrel with the foulers, then shoot for record, recording your results. ONE of those groups should at least print you around a 1.25" group or thereabouts if you do your job. If this happens, you know it was one or more of your reloading practices, or it was the massive variance in your brass or projectiles. Or possibly your scale.

What powder scale, dies, and calipers are you using? Are you measuring one round out of the seating die until it's right, then not measuring any more?

 

[Jgault]

I use Tac with 5.56 and 308 with good results with hornady and Speer bullets, I’ve never used Armscor 223 but I did use their 9mm once and that was enough for me, I would trust factory seconds from Zimbabwe before I use Armscor again.

 

[ZA206]

I'd recommend trying the Hornady 55 Spire Point Boat Tail (SPBT) bullet with cannelure, P/N 2266.

It's basically the same price as their 55 FMJ, but is significantly more accurate and more useful. My standard load (mixed brass) using TAC is 26.2 grains, COL = 2.185"-ish (case mouth is about 1/3 the way up the cannelure). This load is quite accurate in all of my AR rifles (Proof, Bartlein, Faxon, White Oak & PSA Jakl) considering it's mixed brass. Velocity is about 3100 fps out of my 20" Bartlein.

You'll be shocked at how much better your groups are using this bullet over the sorry Armscor bullets (they are terrible).

 

[sheepdog697]

I'd recommend trying the Hornady 55 Spire Point Boat Tail (SPBT) bullet with cannelure, P/N 2266.

It's basically the same price as their 55 FMJ, but is significantly more accurate and more useful. My standard load (mixed brass) using TAC is 26.2 grains, COL = 2.185"-ish (case mouth is about 1/3 the way up the cannelure). This load is quite accurate in all of my AR rifles (Proof, Bartlein, Faxon, White Oak & PSA Jakl) considering it's mixed brass. Velocity is about 3100 fps out of my 20" Bartlein.

You'll be shocked at how much better your groups are using this bullet over the sorry Armscor bullets (they are terrible).

These are the ones I use along with the 55gr vmax in mixed grass and the accuracy is really impressive. I load these bullets with h335 though.

Either way, +1 on the Hornady 55 Spire Point Boat Tail (SPBT) bullet

 

[ZA206]

The 55 Vmax + 25.0 gr of TAC and wolf SRP's are one of my best loads. Crazy accurate.

 

[WhoIsPat]

Every barrel likes something different but I've had really good luck with Arm or Ally branded 55gr fmj, mixed headstamp brass, and H335 for plinking and surprisingly its just barely makes submoa at 100yds

 

[Shoots 700's]

Crappy bullets give crappy results

 

[SPRword]

Appreciate all the insight fellas. I’m going to run out tomorrow and see if somewhere local has some of the 55gr Hornadys in stock and give them a try. If they work ok I’ll put in an order for more.

After all I’m hearing here and elsewhere, these Armscor bullets seem to be the issue. Lesson learned, sometimes there is such a thing as a bullet too cheap for plinking. As an aside, I did try putting a crimp on a few loaded rounds that I had left over and the results were basically identical, which is to say terrible. I’ll blast through what I have left and then it’s time to move on!

 

[misser]

my favored 55gr bullet is the sierra hpbt 1390 with 4320 but you cant get that any more and reloader 15 and you cant get that any more

 

[JerkyFreak]

Batch your brass by headstamp at least and trim all to the same length, or else you may still get poor results even with good bullets.

If you want to try your crappy bullets again, take a selection of your brass (>20 cases) that are all the same headstamp, amount of times fired and all trimmed to the same length. Use a powder charge halfway between min and max. Seat the bullets to the cannelure (crimping groove). Apply a moderate crimp.

At the very least this should give you reasonable plinking ammo; i.e. minute-of-beer-can at 50 yards.

 

[shawn.r2020]

Agree with sorting headstamps, and better projectile. Best advice is investing in a good chrono, personaly, having one showed just how varying my velocities were before sorting... getting just that under better control made a dramatic difference in my loads and shot to shot consistency.

 

[smoothy8500]

Suggested sorting head stamps with crappy bullets and expecting better results…..

 

[ZA206]

OP….

While the Armscor bullets may give crap groups at 100 yards off of a bench, they should be fine for training/drills with a red dot. Not every load needs to be near 1 MOA, it all depends on the use. In that same line of thought, I’d advise against someone doing red dot/carbine CQB training with expensive Bergers or Lapua bullets, as it’s a total waste of money.

 

[Rocketvapor]

4-5 MOA?
I'm gonna assume 100yds?

 

[misser]

4-5 MOA?
I'm gonna assume 100yds?

he must be shooting a mini 14

 

[SPRword]

4-5 MOA?
I'm gonna assume 100yds?

Correct, 100 yards.

 

[misser]

Well keep trying. Me same powder same bullet at 100 yd .the only thing different was the neck trenchion

 

[SPRword]

Well keep trying. Me same powder same bullet at 100 yd .the only thing different was the neck trenchion

That’s pretty impressive. When you say same bullet and powder, do you mean the same for all three groups or the same ones that I am using?

 

[xsn10s]

I've had good results with TAC. But you have to be careful with it during the summer months as the pressures can spike. My guess is the mixed brass and the bullets could be the issue. If you are going to stick with the brass you have trim all of it to the same length.

 

[Basic user]

At this point, I dont see any scientific evidence that it's all because of the bullets only. There are several things wrong with this load, and no one has attempted to pick out the individual factors one by one. I hear a TON of "it's because you're not using lapua cases with berger bullets and br primers." statements when people attempt to analyze loads, yet I see a lot of REALLY impressive groups out there with less than stellar components (not berger/lapua).

Case in point. I pulled down 60 GARBAGE 80's era Yugo M49 8mm rounds, and with those 60 bullets I cleaned the asphalt off of them, weight batched the closest into six, five round groups down to I think a half a grain or so with my A&D fx120i scale, brushed the necks clean of all the asphalt, and reloaded them all with the factory brass/primers starting with a really low load of that factory flake powder, and I'll be damned if one of those loads (forget which charge weight) printed a .8 something group out of my old 50's era Yugo M48 with scope. And that was with me not really driving that rifle correctly as the bench positions at my range leave a little something to be desired. I know .8" groups are nothing high speed, but for THOSE absolute garbage rounds, and that old crappy non free floated war club, I was pretty impressed. Because of that, I can't be fully sure those Fillipino bullets are that much worse than these old Yugo surplus bullets.
That's why we need to know what powder scale he's using, how he's measuring his completed rounds, and his tolerances. I have buddies that complain about their hand load groups out of relatively decent rifles, and I find out they're using a beat up hornady pocket scale from like 25 years ago to weigh their charges. We need more information.
Worse case scenario, send me some of your bullets and cases, and I'll load a ladder and test it in my White Oak barreled AR, and see what I could come up with. I will say this though; I have indeed already experimented with a mixed case brand load ladder in that rifle to see what it would do, and I couldn't get any of that ladder to print under 1.25 inches no matter what I did, and that rifle can shoot in the .3s at a hundred with a good load very easily.

 

[misser]

That’s pretty impressive. When you say same bullet and powder, do you mean the same for all three groups or the same ones that I am using?

The only thing different was the neck trenchion

 

[xsn10s]

Here's my targets, the paper is at 100 yards, the steel is at 550 yards. Just a standard 20" AR I assembled with a Colt lightweight 1-7" barrel. Winchester brass, TAC, and WSR primers. The 53gr VMAX's group better. I'd try it with all the same brass. If it doesn't group better then try a different bullet.

 

[tomme boy]

Armscor ammo is JUNK. Get some Hornady fmj or their sp55gr bullets. They are usually the same price. I can get 1" with my bolt gun easy with both and TAC.

 

[SPRword]

Update for you guys. I tried sorting some of the rounds I had loaded by headstamp and took it out to the range today. I pulled off a 3.8 MOA group unsuppressed and a 2.7 MOA group suppressed. Still not good, but a little better I guess. I’m going to finish this batch of bullets as I have a bunch of them left, but I am swearing off Armscor after this!

 

[rdinak]

Suggest trying the 69 RMR jhp. 24 grains of TAC.

this shoots well in a number of different rifles for me.

 

[redbullitt]

Known bullets would help for sure. Get a box of smks in there and the change may be notable lol.

Sort brass too if you're bored and wanna tighten up there.

If not we can look elsewhere for issue!

 

[SPRword]

Well I think I put the final nail in the Armscor coffin today. I went out and bought some 55gr Hornady FMJ’s like some of you suggested and took them out to the range today. I kept everything else about the load the same. Mixed brass, 26gr tac, same Rem BR small primers, same seating depth, same crimp. Results are as follows.

Rainier Arms Mountain Series CHF/CL, Mid Length
Unsuppressed 5 Shot Group - 1.32 MOA
Surefire RC2 5 Shot Group - 1.24 MOA

Colt SOCOM, Carbine Length
Unsuppressed 5 Shot Group - 2.46 MOA
SUREFIRE RC2 5 Shot Group - 1.11 MOA

I think it’s safe to say that my issue was the Armscor bullets. I was very pleased with the above results, especially since the goal was to make some cheap blasting ammo at or near 5.56 Pressure levels that can hang with factory offerings. I was also happy to see both groups tighten up a bit with the suppressor. It was an expensive can so I’m glad to see that it’s at least not hurting my groups. The Hornady’s are a penny or two more per bullet, but the accuracy improvement is so drastic that switching to them is a no brainer. I appreciate all the help here guys. If I hadn’t asked I’d have been chasing those Armscor bullets for ages.

 

[smoothy8500]

Amazing how Hornady fmj and mixed brass shoot so well.

 

[Cody S]

my advice would be to try the cheap hornady bullets of whatever flavor that peaks your interest. hornady are as cheap as I'll go and expect decent results.

 

[Former Cav]

hang on to some of that TAC powder for when you move to the 6.5 Grendel.
27.2 to 27.8 grains of TAC, CCI #41 primers, and 108 Lupua Scenar bullet in Starline brass works great. Got the recipe from a lady over on 65GrendelDOTcom. I went through the same ladder $hit that you did and could never get a good group. VARGET works next best for me but you can't get enough in the case to move over 2350 FPS.
With the Scenars..
FACTORY NEMO 120 Gr FMJ BT

H 2596 Low 2515 Avg 2567 Ext Sprd 81 SD 32.8 Not that tight of a group either

TAC by Ramshot powder 27.8 and 27.2 108 Gr Scenar LUpua bullet

27.2 Gr TAC H 2467 L 2336 AVG 2401 Ext SPRD 131 SD 92 cover 4 with a Quarter last one opened up

27.7 Gr TAC H 2452 L 2425 AVG 2438 Ext Sprd 26 SD 13.1 ß all 5 bullets you could cover with a dime!

2.221 overall length. CCI 41 starline brass 2nd firing cut to 1.510 Palmetto armory rifle w/ 1 in 8 twist SS

Timney Trigger drop in 3 pound pull