Hey guys, I’m brand new to this. Would anybody care to look at my very first test results ? I fired 3 strings of shots, 1 at each target with about a minute between each shot. The ambient temperature spiked from 80 to 98 during the test, would that explain the vertical difference between each string of shots? I was thinking #7,8,9 and 10,11,12 might be worth looking into? My shooting wasn’t that great today, it was miserably hot, I was getting eaten by fire ants and there the mirage was severe. All groups could have been tighter if the conditions were little better. Also, do you see any pressure signs on my brass? The bolt lift on my CZ 550 is always kind of heavy due to very stiff firing mechanism spring. Any advice and opinions are appreciated!
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Help newbie find a node!
- Thread starter locash78
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I would agree with your #7,8,9 choice and suggest the #12,13 load.
The brass looks fine to me. What bullet are you using?
The brass looks fine to me. What bullet are you using?
Brass looks fine to me. I agree you should revisit 11-13 with #11 being the obvious winner for today. Vertical stringing can be caused by several variables. What powder are you using? If it’s a temp stable powder, the difference in ambient temp wouldn’t cause that much of an impact shift. More likely do to velocity variations and barrel harmonics in my opinion with what little info I have. How quickly did you run through it? Was the barrel getting too hot? Like I said, several things to consider. I would suggest posting your full load so everyone has more info to work with.
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Also, while FC brass will work for a while while you are learning the ropes, you might want to consider trying a high quality brass eventually. Better consistency in brass thickness and volume, among other things, can play a significant part in consistency down range.
I would also start using 175gr SMKs and look in here for good loads. I bet most will outperform you. If you look through i bet you will see a lot of people using similar charges https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/308-winchester.135/
Nodes aren't real
And that test doesn't tell you anything besides the rifle/shooter/ammo combo shoots 1moa
And that test doesn't tell you anything besides the rifle/shooter/ammo combo shoots 1moa
The concept of velocity nodes relies solely on tiny sample sizes which yield utterly misleading "data."
This Hornady podcast gets deep into the weeds about sample sizes and what you can learn from appropriately-sized samples. It's pretty interesting. This is episode #50. There's a followup in #52.
This Hornady podcast gets deep into the weeds about sample sizes and what you can learn from appropriately-sized samples. It's pretty interesting. This is episode #50. There's a followup in #52.
Pick a speed I want for cartridge/barrel length/projectile weight
Load them up around .060" off the lands
Shoot that till barrel dies. Same load/ammo likely works in the next barrel
There's a reason 98% of guns can shoot factory Berger/FGMM/even hornady into 1/2" groups. Reloading just allows for better ES/SD assuming you have the workflow and brass to allow it.
Reloading also let's a shitload of people overthink something and dive way too deep into the habits of the vocal few who have a track record of good F Class/BR scores and knew "best"
One of your original questions was if the ambient temp change while you were shooting would have a large enough impact to see the vertical stringing you had during your test. Short answer... No. Varget is very temp stable.
I don't think that there is zero validity to the node idea as many people utilize that line of thought during their load development but I do agree that its not a major contributing factor. At least its not something that I have ever put too much weight behind. Consistency is key across the board. Harmonics are what they are. That was apparent in your test today. Clearly 1 charge shot better than the others. Does that mean that you found your magic number? Possibly, but more testing is needed. Some rifles will love certain variations of a load while other rifles hate it. Find a load that works for your rifle and fine tune your components and process to ensure consistency from there. Neck tension, brass thickness, brass volume, charge weight, seating depth... All these things contribute the repeatable results.
Let me clarify. As you'll learn in the podcast I linked, "velocity nodes" disappear with increased sample size. No single powder charge is going to yield better extreme velocity spreads than others.
So, pick a velocity. Moderate velocity for a given powder is often better in terms of "inherent" accuracy. I have zero experience/expertise with .308, but I'm sure there are "known standard" good loads for it - like, for example, 41 grains of H4350 plus or minus a few tenths is usually optimal for 140-grain bullets in 6.5CM.
Then play with seating depth to achieve optimum accuracy. Berger Bullets has a technical article that gets into seating depth and, if I recall, suggests depth test increments of a couple hundredths of an inch (e.g., .020, .040, .060... ). I've always found my best accuracy for .223, 6.5CM and 6BR at or near .060" off the lands, although a couple of my match buddies usually find closer to the lands works best for them (.020-.040). I don't chase the lands (change seating depth as throat erodes) and I don't think they do either.
Good luck as you get sucked into the reloading rabbit hole.
More testing for sure, as long as he's chasing accuracy ("accuracy node") and not a tight extreme spread ("velocity node"). In my early days of precision rifle handloading, I did initial testing looking for accuracy AND low ES/SD. I found that I might get a 5-round sample with a 5fps ES... and the next 5-round group of the identical load had a 35fps spread.
Now, I might play with charge weight early on when I build a new rifle or try a new caliber, but mostly I look here on SH for known good/safe loads for a caliber and work from there with seating depth.
Heh. Or chuck the centerfires in the safe and enjoy my .22s....
There is a known load between 43 and 43.5 gr with FC brass. There is also a one at 44.2-44.5 but the lower is usually wider and easier on the brass. You should be getting around 2620-2650 fps on the lower node. I don't shoot Varget but IMR4064 and the loads are usually about the same. My 168SMK is 43.2 gr 4064 so your 7,8,9 is in the range. You didn't mention if you shot this round robin or not. If you did it typically opens up the groups a little. I would not go to the higher node with 168 SMK as it won't by you much more distance on that bullet. If you need to shoot beyond 700-800yds then go with the 169 or 175 Matchkings.
A word on this method. It is about both accuracy and precision and leans to accuracy, that is a repeatable load that is not sensitive changes in component lots. It may or may not give the smallest groups. As for statistics, in a 308 size load it will usually show a consistent POI over 2 or 3 increments (assuming .3 gr increments) so it is based on 6-9 shots and not 3. As with any test, you should repeat it to verify. In this case I would load 43.2,43.4 and 43.6 and see what you get.
A word on this method. It is about both accuracy and precision and leans to accuracy, that is a repeatable load that is not sensitive changes in component lots. It may or may not give the smallest groups. As for statistics, in a 308 size load it will usually show a consistent POI over 2 or 3 increments (assuming .3 gr increments) so it is based on 6-9 shots and not 3. As with any test, you should repeat it to verify. In this case I would load 43.2,43.4 and 43.6 and see what you get.
I agree with you and I will definitely retest the 43gr node as this is more of a 600y, show off at the range load. I do have a box of 175SMK to see if I can develop a 1000y load. I did shoot my test round robin but for the 3rd round the mirage, ants crawling up my pants and borderline heat stroke definitely played a role. You can see on the black target that was a group I shot at the end of the test with FGMM that group was quite larger than my sight in group with the same ammo which was around 1/2”.So the test helped me narrow things down but definitely more testing is needed to confirm. I was just happy that all my first ever handloads went Bang! and I got few groups that were as good as FGMM on that day. Thank you for your feedback!
This. OCW has nothing to do with the "velocity node" methid peopel were touting a couple years ago as the new thing in load development. Nodes as laid out in OCW exist. Diffrent powder charges will shoot to diffrent POI. More so with some cartridges than others it would seem. Seems most of the 6br variants shoot about any charge to the same POI.
Heh. Unless you were born before the end of the Korean War, you're younger than me....
I have --some-- experience with .308.... mostly out of my son's National Match M1A with factory ammo.... and a fondly-remembered interaction with an M60 as a grade-schooler at an Armed Forces Day observance (although blanks really don't count). By the time I got interested in precision rifle six years ago after decades of NSSA skeet competition, the 6.5CM was the hot ticket and I was quite content to avoid .30 caliber recoil into my worn-out spine.
Good brass ( lapua or alpha( ..good powder ( varget, h4350, RL, VV) ..good bullet( berger).
Jump it .030-.100 and load for velocity. Once you find a velocity you want you can stop there or play with seating depth/tuner.
Hard to make something that doesn't shoot sub 1/2 moa
