Help selecting a new rifle

[Seanm]

Good morning!

I am new to rifle / long range shooting and I am using this as a way to get closer to my father who was in the military. I am looking to get a rifle that I can grow with, starting out getting use to closer ranges but eventually pushing out to 800+ yards ( threw a number out there ). I'm looking for more precision and less for hunting.
That being said, I have done my homework and have narrowed down my selection to 4 rifles:

1. Winchester XPC
2. Tikka T3x Tac A1
3. Ruger Precision Rifle
4. Savage Arms10/110 BA Stealth Evolution

I wanted to see what opinions / experience the community here had towards the referenced rifles. I know people may be biased or have favorites. All 3 seem to be solid guns but i'm looking at this as a long term investment so im over thinking this. So far I am leaning towards the T3x Tac A1.

I am also not sure which caliber to go with but I am leaning towards 6.5 creedmoor. It really doesn't seem like there's a wrong choice though creedmoor seems to be more forgiving for someone inexperienced.

Thank you for your help

 

[patriot07]

Tikka T3x Tac A1 will do everything you want to do. So will the Tikka CTR at half the price.

Don't know much about the Winchester, but I'm sure the Savage and RPR will both shoot just fine. The RPR won't be quite as smooth, and maybe not quite as accurate as the Tikka. The Savage won't be as smooth and is prone to feeding/ejection/extraction issues. But they're both plenty accurate for an entry-level precision shooting rifle.

You don't have to spend $1k+ to get the performance you want. Personally, if I was going to spend what the Tikka Tac A1 costs, I'd consider the PVA John Hancock. The Tikka CTR really is the best value in precision shooting. It's an awesome rifle. But you won't be disappointed if you decide to go with the Tac either. I'm just way more of a cheapskate than that.

 

[patriot07]

I just looked again and if you can get the Tac for around $1500 (which it seems you can), then I remove any objections. That's a heck of a rifle for that price. CTR is still an awesome gun and an awesome value, but so is the Tac.

 

[Eadle]

I second the Tikka TacA1. I have a ruger precision in 6.5 and a 308 Tikka CTR. They both are excellent shooters but if I got to do it all over again with what is available today, I would do the TAcA1 in 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[tnbowhunter]

+ 1 for Tikka in 6.5 creedmoor

 

[DarrinW]

I have a savage stealth and the action, to me, seems sloppy. It took a lot to break in the cocking mechanism where it wouldn't want to roll the rifle over on Bolt lift. And it seems sloppy with the bolt all the way back in my opinion, especially compared to my remington. But it shoots very well as far as accuracy goes.

A friend of mine has a Tac A1. Super accurate but shes had some issues. The flat rail makes you have to mount the scope very high, and its a flat 0 MOA to boot. Make sure you have plenty of adjustment or a unimount that you an get 20 MOA because they doent sell one for the rifle. At least my friend hasnt been able to source one. Oh, and the mags for the Tikka are proprietary if that matters to you.

 

[patriot07]

A friend of mine has a Tac A1. Super accurate but shes had some issues. The flat rail makes you have to mount the scope very high, and its a flat 0 MOA to boot. Make sure you have plenty of adjustment or a unimount that you an get 20 MOA because they doent sell one for the rifle. At least my friend hasnt been able to source one. Oh, and the mags for the Tikka are proprietary if that matters to you.

Hadn't thought about that. That's a major issue. This alone might push me to the CTR and then whatever aftermarket chassis you like.

 

[fdkay]

The Tikka is a fine rifle. Nice, smooth action, accurate rifle.
HOWEVER.
With the RPR, you have the options of upgrading the barrel yourself (easy to swap barrels).
I have an RPR Gen 1 for work. It shoots amazingly well and is very well designed.

Don't discount the Howa Chassis Rifle. They are dandy rifles and I would consider one of those before the savage.
The only one that doesn't have any history is the Winchester, the other three have well deserved, good reputations (the Howa does as well)

 

[Phil G]

Of the 4 choices, I own a Gen 1 Ruger RPR and it has been a very accurate rifle. It is easily a sub MOA rifle with factory Hornady 140 ammo. The ease of getting a replacement barrel when the original needs replacing is attractive. My factory trigger is surprisingly good for a factory rifle. The stock is easily adjustable. I have been very pleased with the rifle, especially for the price.

Phil G

 

[MarinePMI]

I'm kind of the opinion that the RPR's "barrel replacement" selling point is moot these days with Tikka pre-fits available.

Don't get me wrong, the RPR's are a lot of gun for the money, they just don't have the same fit and finish that the Tikka's do. I also wouldn't call the Tac mags "proprietary", they're just "Tikka" mags that are used across several platforms. AI mags are similar, but copied more due to their availability at the time DBM's became all the rage. With all the Tikka CTRs, Sako TRG's and TacA1's now (and never mind the huge contract to the Canadian government) finding mags (and pricing) has improved.

 

[Bender]

Bergara, RPR, Tikka, pick the one you like the best. They all shoot. Get as much scope as you can afford. SWFA fixed 10x at $300 is the barest minimum. But an excellent scope. I’ll always have one. But if you are deciding between $2000 rifle and a $500 scope? I would get $1000 rifle and put a $1500 scope on it instead. The bergara and RPR can both be had under $1000 in 6.5 Creedmoor. Don’t even overthink the caliber. Just do a 6.5 Creedmoor and be done with it, End of discussion.

 

[patriot07]

Bergara, RPR, Tikka, pick the one you like the best. They all shoot. Get as much scope as you can afford. SWFA fixed 10x at $300 is the barest minimum. But an excellent scope. I’ll always have one. But if you are deciding between $2000 rifle and a $500 scope? I would get $1000 rifle and put a $1500 scope on it instead. The bergara and RPR can both be had under $1000 in 6.5 Creedmoor. Don’t even overthink the caliber. Just do a 6.5 Creedmoor and be done with it, End of discussion.

All good advice. I have a Tikka CTR 6.5 creedmoor with an SWFA 5-20 HD. Just an all-around reliable setup that doesn't give me much fuss.

 

[W54/XM-388]

6.5 Creedmoor for sure, unless you specifically need another caliber.
In the $1k range, if you want the more chassis type rifle, the RPR is excellent, if you want a lighter more sporting/hunting style, the Tikka CTR is an excellent choice.

 

[Wildfire1550]

some great deals on the ruger going on right now

 

[ThePretzel]

The Savage is the budget offering of the bunch, and unfortunately it does show (though all in ways that won't matter for accuracy). The bolt will be rough and a little bit sticky in spots until you wear it in properly (took me a couple days of just running the bolt while reading to get my Savage action smooth-ish). That said, they almost always shoot small holes (my $250 12FV shoots .6 MOA at 400 yards with American Gunner).

Savage actions do have more frequent extraction/ejection problems though. Whenever I go to the range I usually have it happen once or twice where I extract the round and it's left just sitting on top of my blind mag in front of the bolt instead of ejecting properly out of the action. I haven't ever had a failure to extract, but failure to eject is a problem that happens maybe 1 in every 100 rounds for me.

The RPR is a very popular choice, and for good reason. It's a solid offering at a good price point. Accepts standard AI CS pattern mags and generally will shoot sub-MOA with whatever you throw at it. It won't be quite as refined or smooth as the Tikka (though it is slightly lighter), but it will effectively do the same thing the Tikka can do.

The Tikka likely won't really have much accuracy advantage over the other two, but it will be the smoothest action and overall the most refined gun of the bunch. If you don't mind dropping the extra cash, you'll appreciate the improvements that come with it in the trigger and action (and they do include a nicer pistol grip out of the box, but those change easily). The downside is the proprietary mags, so you can't share with or borrow from other shooters unless they also have the Tikka.

All 3 of those rifles will work and shoot well, just depends on how much you want to spend for it to be a "nice" gun really.

 

[Potss]

I don't think anyone would disagree that most of the accuracy of a rifle is in the barrel and chamber and that neither the Tikka nor Bergara Premier nor Savage nor Ruger actions hold back the accuracy of a barrel. I don't think anyone would disagree that while the stock barrels on all of the rifles mentioned in the OP and ITT (especially the stainless) are great, you can buy an even greater probability of better accuracy with the very high end cut barrels like Bartlein, Krieger, Hawk Hill, Rock Creek etc. With that in mind:

1.) Buy any Tikka T3x with a .308 bolt face for around $500 (can get for less used, can sell barrel and stock to recoup some $$).

2.) Buy KRG Bravo Stock for around $390.

3.) Buy PVA Pre-fit Cut Rock Creek for $550 in desired length.

Combine the above, end up with the nicest action short of a full custom, and a barrel that is at least as good as any other top tier barrel. For ~$1450 max, I don't think you can buy more accuracy for the money.

 

[Seanm]

First I wanted to start by saying thank you for all the information.

I have decided to go with the Tikka T3X Tac A1. Though I Dont doubt the custom build might be the better choice long term I figure this is plenty good for starting point.

I have just 2 more questions in regards to this gun.

1. Will the flat 0 moa rail really be that much of an issue longer range? The scopes I am debating between are the Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 or the HD AMG. If it will be that much of an issue or worth changing it out now if there is some after market 20 moa available?

2. It seems like barrel replacement isnt as much of an issue anymore but will I really run into needing to do this that much sooner with this gun at 6.5 creedmoore vs 762?

Thank you everyone for you help again.

 

[MarinePMI]

1. Should be fine, I run a flat rail with a Gen II Razor/6.5CM and have no problems.

2. It is shorter of a life than a .308, but it is still around 2500-3000 rds. For most, that is a lot of ammo. Barrel life shouldn't really be a consideration (IMHO), since barrels are just a consumable item in this game. You have plenty of time to squirrel away some cash for a new barrel. Better yet, buy a new one as soon as possible and put it in the safe. It's peace of mind when you have a spare sitting in the safe if/when your current barrel goes south.

JMTCW...

 

[ThePretzel]

1. Will the flat 0 moa rail really be that much of an issue longer range? The scopes I am debating between are the Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 or the HD AMG. If it will be that much of an issue or worth changing it out now if there is some after market 20 moa available?

Depends on how far you want to shoot, honestly, and whether you are ok with holding over. If you want to shoot at a mile you're going to need a 20 MOA rail to have a chance at doing it without holding over (adds 5.8 mils, and my 6.5 Creedmoor has a hold between 15 and 19 mils from 0 for 1 mile depending on the load).

The Razor HD Gen 2 has 36 mils of adjustment so you could theoretically get somewhere between 15 and 17 mils of elevation with a 0 MOA rail, but with a 20 MOA rail you would likely be able to adjust the rifle somewhere near 21-23 mils above your zero (which is about the elevation needed to shoot a mile with factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo).

With the Razor HD Gen 2 you could even safely use a 40 MOA rail and still be able to zero your rifle without problems (40 MOA = 11.63 mils) if you wanted to extend your scope's range even further. That said, even my hottest and heaviest 6.5 Creedmoor loads drop subsonic at 2,200 yards and that's if I shoot 150 SMK's at 2875 fps (possible with RL-16, no flattening of primers in Lapua brass) at a density altitude of around 5000-6000 feet where I'm at. The 40 MOA base would mean you could dial a total of around 27-29 mils up from your zero on your Gen 2 Razor, which would let you basically shoot with the crosshairs zeroed for whatever distance your 6.5 could realistically reach.

2. It seems like barrel replacement isnt as much of an issue anymore but will I really run into needing to do this that much sooner with this gun at 6.5 creedmoore vs 762?

Barrel life on a .308 can be anywhere from 5,000 rounds to 9,000 rounds depending on what you shoot and the conditions you shoot in. Barrel life on a 6.5 Creedmoor is generally around 2,500-3,500 rounds depending on the same factors. Like MarinePMI mentioned, barrels are generally considered to be a consumable in the same way your ammo is a consumable when shooting.

A Tikka pre-fit from Criterion would run you about $475 with a threaded muzzle and requires no gunsmithing to install it. If you assume a low end of only 2,500 rounds of barrel life, then you're still only shooting $0.19 of barrel with each round that goes through it. If you start to hand load ammunition (assuming you aren't already), you'll save much more than 19 cents per shot.

For reference on 6.5 Creedmoor barrel life, I'm currently running a Christensen TFM with the stock barrel on it in 6.5 Creedmoor. It has about 2,000 rounds of factory Federal and Hornady ammo through the barrel, and then another 1,000 rounds of stupid hot loads through the barrel (123 SMK's at 3110 fps, 147 ELD-M's at 2900, 150 SMK's at 2875-2900, 122 Warner Tools at 3200+) because I found out about the wonderful thing that is RL-16. Even with 3,000 rounds on it, with 1,000 of them being really harsh on the barrel, I have no problems with throat erosion (can still load 147's to touch the lands if I want while fitting inside mag length) and accuracy is still generally better than half-MOA with no noticeable change from when it was new.

Depending on how much you shoot, you may go through a barrel a year. Most of the people shooting PRS go through 1-2 barrels per year, depending on how much practice and load development they do plus the number of matches they shoot (200 rounds per national match time 3-10 matches plus 100 rounds per club match times 0-20 matches).

 

[Coffee is for closers]

I don't think anyone would disagree that most of the accuracy of a rifle is in the barrel and chamber and that neither the Tikka nor Bergara Premier nor Savage nor Ruger actions hold back the accuracy of a barrel. I don't think anyone would disagree that while the stock barrels on all of the rifles mentioned in the OP and ITT (especially the stainless) are great, you can buy an even greater probability of better accuracy with the very high end cut barrels like Bartlein, Krieger, Hawk Hill, Rock Creek etc. With that in mind:

1.) Buy any Tikka T3x with a .308 bolt face for around $500 (can get for less used, can sell barrel and stock to recoup some $$).

2.) Buy KRG Bravo Stock for around $390.

3.) Buy PVA Pre-fit Cut Rock Creek for $550 in desired length.

Combine the above, end up with the nicest action short of a full custom, and a barrel that is at least as good as any other top tier barrel. For ~$1450 max, I don't think you can buy more accuracy for the money.

Would/could you do the same for a 6.5 creedmore? Anyone else have similar ideas for a semi custom build???

 

[Potss]

Would/could you do the same for a 6.5 creedmore? Anyone else have similar ideas for a semi custom build???

Yes, anything that shares the .308 bolt face, including 6.5CM.

 

[NateVA]

Get the Tikka CTR and throw it in a chassis of your choice. That's by far the best option.

 

[Coffee is for closers]

Thanks so much Nate!! No Need to change anything else? Here is my dilemma, Tikka being a jerk of a company is now forcing retailers to gouge the customers....I don't like that. I know lots of people here don't like savage but I hunt with an Axis and have never had ejector problems. I use it in hunting class shooting comps and had no problems and the new Savage Evolution seems to be pretty nice with 5r rifling, magpul gen 3 stock, 20 moa rail and blueprinted. The post I quoted earlier was awesome because it told how to build and kept the price reasonable. But now every Tikka is literaly at least 200 bucks more

 

[MarinePMI]

Better look at Eurooptics...they're having a sale on Tikkas...and $200 more is still a good deal when compared to a Savage.

 

[ThePretzel]

Would/could you do the same for a 6.5 creedmore? Anyone else have similar ideas for a semi custom build???

Like @Potss mentioned, anything with a .308 bolt face will work for that.

Some of the popular calibers with that bolt face include:
- 6.5/6 Creedmoor
- 6x47/6.5x47 Lapua
- 6BR/BRA/BRX/Dasher
- 6XC
- .260
- .243
- 7mm-08
- .22-250
- .22BR/Creedmoor/22x47 (new wildcats)
- 6.5x55 (depending on the specific action and what brand of brass you use, works best in a CRF action or with non-Lapua brass if you use a .308 bolt)
- .280
- .270
- 30-06
- .284
- 6.5x284

Etc etc. The list goes on quite a long ways, so you've got a lot of possibilities. Many non-magnum cartridges (besides .223 or other popular AR calibers like Grendel or Valkyrie) use the same bolt face as the .308, which is rather convenient.

 

[Coffee is for closers]

Better look at Eurooptics...they're having a sale on Tikkas...and $200 more is still a good deal when compared to a Savage.

What about the Bergara vs tikka?

 

[MarinePMI]

While many here have had no problems with them, I have two close friends that have seen some that were not what I would call a good value (guns had to be taken back because the accuracy out of them was horrible). Not sure if they had bad barrels or what, but they were replaced; the replacements seemed acceptable.

This being the case, I give a nod towards Tikka. Bergara may work out the QC kinks, but for now Tikka (IME) has better QC and aftermarket support. I'd think the question would more wisely be, Howa versus Tikka (currently).

 

[308pirate]

I'd think the question would more wisely be, Howa versus Tikka (currently).

They are both insanely good factory rifles. Howas give up nothing to any other rifle in terms of accuracy or quality of manufacture. Their bolts are silky smooth after a very short break in period, and improve from there. With correct lubrication on the cocking piece, my well broken in 308's bolt lift is crazy easy.

To say that Tikkas have a better aftermarket is a matter of degree. Howas have plenty of it I can find anything I would need in stock and chassis options, DBMs, triggers, scope mounting, muzzle devices, etc.

I haven't had any Tikkas (though I've fondled a few) but I have owned Sako rifles in the past so I do have a personal frame of reference to make the comparison.

 

[308pirate]

Here's a few ideas on building a semi-custom Howa 1500

24" heavy barreled action in 6.5 Creedmoor from Brownells: $462 (blued) to $530 (FDE cerakote)

Chassis options:

• KRG Bravo $439
• Accurate Mag Sport-Tact Lite with Accurate Mag fixed stock $545
• Accurate Mag Sport-Tact Lite with MDT SRS V5 stock and MDT carbine to fixed stock adapter $764
• Accurate Sport-Tact Lite with Luth AR stock (duplicates the Howa Chassis RIfle) $560
• Accurate Sport-Tact Lite without stock (add whatever else you like) $425
• Masterpiece Arms BA chassis: $1049

 

[Coffee is for closers]

Here's a few ideas on building a semi-custom Howa 1500

24" heavy barreled action in 6.5 Creedmoor from Brownells: $462 (blued) to $530 (FDE cerakote)

Chassis options:

• KRG Bravo $439
• Accurate Mag Sport-Tact Lite with Accurate Mag fixed stock $545
• Accurate Mag Sport-Tact Lite with MDT SRS V5 stock and MDT carbine to fixed stock adapter $764
• Accurate Sport-Tact Lite with Luth AR stock (duplicates the Howa Chassis RIfle) $560
• Accurate Sport-Tact Lite without stock (add whatever else you like) $425
• Masterpiece Arms BA chassis: $1049

Thank you for taking the time to write that for me!

 

[Quarter Horse]

Seanm, the O MOA rail is not an issue if you use Burris rings with inserts. The Signature Z rings will give you up to 20 MOA of cant. The new XTR Signature rings can provide as much 40 MOA.

 

[Coffee is for closers]

Thank you for taking the time to write that for me!

WHat is the least expensive Howa that I can purchase to build onto?

 

[stello1001]

WHat is the least expensive Howa that I can purchase to build onto?

If cheapest is what you have in mind, you'll have to settle for .308. The 6.5s are a bit more expensive.

rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/barreled-receivers/1500-308-win-20-heavy-barreled-action-prod94606.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=howa&avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=Salezz1zzClearance&psize

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...short-action-varmint-barrel-channel-synthetic

This setup would be a really great start. The stock also has an aluminum bedding block so you can drop in the barreled action and shoot it.

What else or what more could you ask for?

 

[Coffee is for closers]

If cheapest is what you have in mind, you'll have to settle for .308. The 6.5s are a bit more expensive.

rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/barreled-receivers/1500-308-win-20-heavy-barreled-action-prod94606.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=howa&avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=Salezz1zzClearance&psize

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...short-action-varmint-barrel-channel-synthetic

This setup would be a really great start. The stock also has an aluminum bedding block so you can drop in the barreled action and shoot it.

What else or what more could you ask for?

I'm sorry I wasn't real clear on that. I meant which model of howa action could I buy to then put in one of the chassis you recommended earlier.

 

[CUBUFF89]

+1 on the Tikka T3X TAC A1 in 6.5CM. I mounted a Razor Gen II on it and have right at 15 mrad of elevation adjustment. That has easily taken me out to 1200 yds so far. If a 20 moa rail were easily swappable that would be great, but it's just not an option that I can find at present. But I really haven't needed it so far.

Accuracy is outstanding and the adjustability and flexibility of the chassis is a big plus. With the pic rail on the handguard you do have to mount the scope pretty high but the cheekpiece raises so a proper cheek weld is still possible. I got mine for $1500 and think it was a real value for an out of the box rifle.

 

[wemmd]

Not sure if this message really belongs here so bear with me please. I am a novice at this stuff and am trying to decide on a budget minded purchase of a long range rifle. I am considering rifles chambered in creedmoor 6.5 vs 224 valkyrie. Is one round much better than the other? What 'bang for the buck" optic would you recommend? The ranges that I will likely be shooting in would be about 300-600 yds but may travel now and then for longer distance shooting. Finally, I have ruger 10/22 takedown rife with a Bushnell AR/22 rimfire 2-7x x32mm scope. Is that worth using for practice? If yes, what changes would you recommend? Thanks!

 

[Bender]

Not sure if this message really belongs here so bear with me please. I am a novice at this stuff and am trying to decide on a budget minded purchase of a long range rifle. I am considering rifles chambered in creedmoor 6.5 vs 224 valkyrie. Is one round much better than the other? What 'bang for the buck" optic would you recommend? The ranges that I will likely be shooting in would be about 300-600 yds but may travel now and then for longer distance shooting. Finally, I have ruger 10/22 takedown rife with a Bushnell AR/22 rimfire 2-7x x32mm scope. Is that worth using for practice? If yes, what changes would you recommend? Thanks!

You could start your own thread. But anyway, depends on your uses. But if only target at 300-600yds, I would say the .224 Valkyrie would be great. But either caliber is great. Read and read more. Welcome to the Hide.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I remember this rabbit hole.

That Howa in the video above is badass. Sub moa guarantee. I wish I'd seen it before I made my decision. I'm a sucker FDE. Especially at $1000. You can put a decent scope on it, buy ammo and be shooting for under $2000

 

[patriot07]

Not sure if this message really belongs here so bear with me please. I am a novice at this stuff and am trying to decide on a budget minded purchase of a long range rifle. I am considering rifles chambered in creedmoor 6.5 vs 224 valkyrie. Is one round much better than the other? What 'bang for the buck" optic would you recommend? The ranges that I will likely be shooting in would be about 300-600 yds but may travel now and then for longer distance shooting. Finally, I have ruger 10/22 takedown rife with a Bushnell AR/22 rimfire 2-7x x32mm scope. Is that worth using for practice? If yes, what changes would you recommend? Thanks!

I personally wouldn't use the 10/22 for practice. Use your main rifle so you can learn how it acts in different situations. Trying to make a 22 act like a 6.5 or 224V isn't really all that applicable IMHO.

As for which caliber, I'd personally go with the 6.5 CM. 224V will go through barrels faster and has less match ammo available if you wanted to hold off on reloading. Either cartridge is plenty for under 600 yards or even out to 1,000. But the 6.5 just does everything so easily.

Also, loading up the 6.5 is stupid easy - just get a 140 ELD-M loaded .030 off the lands with a 210M primer and somewhere between 42 and 43 grains of H-4350 and call it a day. There's no need to hot rod anything at the ranges you're talking about.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

A biggest benifit of 308 is ammo. You can find cheaper ammo and more of it. Maybe the widest variety of any caliber. mil surplus for .30 cents per round if your shooting steel at a few hundred yards works fine. whereas 6.5 is mostly all match ammo at $1 a round. If you want to shoot a lot of 6.5 you will definately want to reload. An added cost if you dont already.

 

[ThePretzel]

A biggest benifit of 308 is ammo. You can find cheaper ammo and more of it. Maybe the widest variety of any caliber. mil surplus for .30 cents per round if your shooting steel at a few hundred yards works fine. whereas 6.5 is mostly all match ammo at $1 a round. If you want to shoot a lot of 6.5 you will definately want to reload. An added cost if you dont already.

Hornady American Gunner periodically goes on sale for $0.50/round and is actually good quality. I haven't yet found a rifle that didn't shoot MOA or better with that ammo, and my Savage actually really likes it (shoots between 1/2 and 3/4 MOA in 5-shot groups depending on the day, I'd call it 3/4 MOA ammo in that gun).

Mil surplus .308 is lucky to shoot 2 MOA on a good day, and is not useful for any real practice or improvement once a shooter is capable of printing groups smaller than that with better ammo. It "works", but it won't make anyone a better shooter because you don't know if you missed at 400 yards because you didn't hold proper wind or because the ammo was shooting 4 inches or more off from where you were aiming. It's good if you just want to have some fun shooting at large plates, but not good for any real improvement.

If you want to shoot accurately you're stuck with the same tried and true ammunition choices such as FGMM or Hornady Match. I haven't heard the same good things about the .308 American Gunner as the 6.5 Creed, but it is out there and the same price if you don't mind using pretty light 155gr bullets.

As far as finding more of it, 6.5 Creedmoor is widely available just about anywhere in the US. It's popular enough now that even Walmart carries it.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

All true.

Just saying, it's something to consider depending on what your doing. 308 is still fairly accurate out to a good distance and cheaper to shoot. If your goal is longer and/or more accurate than a 6.5 no question at the cost of $1 a shot..

ringing gongs past 500 with cheap steel Russian ammo from my AR is still loads of fun.

 

[Steel head]

A biggest benifit of 308 is ammo. You can find cheaper ammo and more of it. Maybe the widest variety of any caliber. mil surplus for .30 cents per round if your shooting steel at a few hundred yards works fine. whereas 6.5 is mostly all match ammo at $1 a round. If you want to shoot a lot of 6.5 you will definately want to reload. An added cost if you dont already.

I my area quality 6.5 Creedmoor is more plentiful and no more expensive than 308.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I my area quality 6.5 Creedmoor is more plentiful and no more expensive than 308.

As is the case in most areas. No debate there.
How much is the least expensive 6.5 vs the least expensive .308?
In some circumstances the lesser may work just fine. Just like say a 223 would be compared to 308. Not really an option with 6.5cm, your shooting $1 Bill's regardless if your shooting cans under 100yd or targets over 1000yd.

Quality vs quantity

 

[ThePretzel]

As is the case in most areas. No debate there.
How much is the least expensive 6.5 vs the least expensive .308?
In some circumstances the lesser may work just fine. Just like say a 223 would be compared to 308. Not really an option with 6.5cm, your shooting $1 Bill's regardless if your shooting cans under 100yd or targets over 1000yd.

2 MOA milsurp ammo, regardless of the distance you shoot at, is never going to "work just fine" when it comes to improving your shooting skills. It will help a rank beginner improve for a short period of time, but will hold back the majority of shooters especially if long range shooting is their goal.

Since OP also wants to push to shoot 800+ yards that milsurp is going to struggle even harder since they won't be able to hit even a 12" plate consistently with no wind at that distance (the SD's on that ammo is garbage too).

As mentioned before, with 6.5 Creedmoor you're not shooting $1 bills, you're only shooting an extra 2 dimes compared to the cheap and shit .308 ammo. The least expensive 6.5 Creedmoor is only 20 cents more than the cheapest mil surp .308, and it shoots a hell of a lot better.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

I'm not comparing 2moa milsurp 308 to match 6.5. you guys are missing my point.

 

[ThePretzel]

I'm not comparing 2moa milsurp 308 to match 6.5. you guys are missing my point.

I'm comparing milsurp 308, the $0.30/round option you keep talking about, to the $0.50/round American Gunner that shoots MOA or better in the majority of guns. You're missing the point, in that you think accurate .308 is cheaper than accurate 6.5 Creedmoor. American Gunner shoots well in most guns and is the same price between .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor, but has a poor bullet for long range shooting in the .308 variant and a good high-BC option in the 6.5 Creedmoor variant.

There's also low-BC but still better than milsurp accuracy 6.5 Creedmoor ammo available from Sellier and Bellot any day of the week for less than $0.60/round, if you don't want to wait for sales on the American Gunner. The American Gunner 6.5 Creedmoor is still only $0.68/round without any sales if you order 2 cans of it (400 rounds) from LAX Ammo.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Lucky you, here in Commifornia we can't order ammo online and shop around for the best sales. so I'm comparing common retail which is at best .80 for 6.5cm, again lucky for you if you can get it cheaper.

If all I need is 1moa, a 1 moa 308 at .40 cents allows me to shoot twice as much as as a 1 moa 6.5cm at .80 cents.

Sometimes 2moa is more than enough and .25 cheap milsurp ammo allows me to shoot even more.

Again if high levels of precision and longer range is wanted 6.5cm without a doubt.


Hell if cost wasn't a factor I'd be shooting 338LM

 

[ThePretzel]

Lucky you, here in Commifornia we can't order ammo online and shop around for the best sales. so I'm comparing common retail which is at best .80 for 6.5cm, again lucky for you if you can get it cheaper.

California has Sportsman's Warehouse. Sportsman's Warehouse does sales on the 6.5 Creedmoor American Gunner for $0.50/round multiple times a year. It's not $0.80/round "at best", even in that terrible state.

If all I need is 1moa, a 1 moa 308 at .40 cents allows me to shoot twice as much as as a 1 moa 6.5cm at .80 cents.

Sometimes 2moa is more than enough and .25 cheap milsurp ammo allows me to shoot even more.

Ignoring the fact that you keep changing the price of milsurp to be lower as your posts go on (originally you claimed it was $0.30/round), I'm very curious to see what .308 ammo you're buying that's 1 MOA in most guns for $0.40/round, because the cheapest .308 ammunition I know of that I would classify as 1 MOA in most guns is again the same American Gunner ammunition as in the 6.5 Creedmoor.

2 MOA milsurp is only more than enough at 800 yards if you're shooting at 30" gongs. It's important to remember what the OP said about what they want out of the rifle, and why what you're advocating for is a terrible decision for the purpose outlined for the rifle by the OP.

I am new to rifle / long range shooting and I am using this as a way to get closer to my father who was in the military. I am looking to get a rifle that I can grow with, starting out getting use to closer ranges but eventually pushing out to 800+ yards ( threw a number out there ). I'm looking for more precision and less for hunting.

Someone looking specifically for precision is not going to be even close to satisfied with 2 MOA milsurp ammunition at any range.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Tomayto Tomahto

??

Sorry @Seanm for derailing your thread.