Night Vision Help with LE night vision please

[INgunner54]

Looking for advice from those of you that utilize night vision. I was asked by one of my higher ups after an aar for a job the other day if I had night vision capabilities for my rifle. He asked because the situation ended just before dusk, but could have easily gone later into the night before a resolution happened.

When I told him I didn't, he asked me to do some research and get some pricing to submit a proposal. I know jack shit about night vision so I thought I'd start here and ask where to go to find answers on what would be best for our purposes.

Some of my questions are: Would I be better suited with thermal or N.V.?

Is it better to have a stand alone observation device, or something that goes on the rifle where I can still use the scope?

Our operating environment varies quite a bit with anything from tight urban neighborhoods to pretty open farm land, and anything in between really. If in the city I'm typically looking at ranges of 100 and in, but out in the county areas it's not uncommon to be 500yds from what I'm watching due to lack of cover/concealment options.

I'm typically utilized for observation, secondary to overwatch for the rest of the team. Any advice for a good jumping off point would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[Killswitch Engage]

ymmv here but....having absolute positive ID for engagement is a major necessity for LE. you're not getting that with pretty much any thermal out there especially beyond 100yd. not enough where in a stress situation i think you would be 110% on ID through thermal image.

a clip on nv device is what you want. pvs-22 really stands out well for LE work with variable power second focal plane scope. when you dial the magnification back you are able to retain a full size reticle versus a tiny reticle on a FFP scope. A small thermal for detection and a pvs-14 or such for observation. overwatch on a rifle for extended periods of time with a nv device sucks.

 

[_Windrider_]

Didn’t we do this already in the LE only forum? If you don’t have access PM lowlight and he will square you away. Pretty sure we just had this exact discussion

 

[_Windrider_]

We did do it. This is double posted. Thought it looked familiar.

 

[INgunner54]

Yes I posted in the le specific forum then here as well. If that's not kosher my apologies, I can take it down.

 

[_Windrider_]

Yes I posted in the le specific forum then here as well. If that's not kosher my apologies, I can take it down.

no. I was just confused. i was like I know I saw this already

 

[INgunner54]

Right on. Where is a reputable place to start looking into options for a clip on? From what I see TNVC has a pretty solid reputation.

 

[_Windrider_]

Right on. Where is a reputable place to start looking into options for a clip on? From what I see TNVC has a pretty solid reputation.

There are a lot of options and vendors here. @Surgeon_Shooter can help. @SkyScrapin as well I believe dabbles in NV. TNVC like you said. Maybe @Terry Cross has some feedback for you as well to get you squared away.

 

[Burdy]

Looking for advice from those of you that utilize night vision. I was asked by one of my higher ups after an aar for a job the other day if I had night vision capabilities for my rifle. He asked because the situation ended just before dusk, but could have easily gone later into the night before a resolution happened.

When I told him I didn't, he asked me to do some research and get some pricing to submit a proposal. I know jack shit about night vision so I thought I'd start here and ask where to go to find answers on what would be best for our purposes.

Some of my questions are: Would I be better suited with thermal or N.V.?

Is it better to have a stand alone observation device, or something that goes on the rifle where I can still use the scope?

Our operating environment varies quite a bit with anything from tight urban neighborhoods to pretty open farm land, and anything in between really. If in the city I'm typically looking at ranges of 100 and in, but out in the county areas it's not uncommon to be 500yds from what I'm watching due to lack of cover/concealment options.

I'm typically utilized for observation, secondary to overwatch for the rest of the team. Any advice for a good jumping off point would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

What area of the country are you in?

 

[INgunner54]

The shitty part. IN to be specific.

 

[Terry Cross]

*Most of these men have already given good advice.

I too would suggest going with PVS-22, 30 or 27.
Definitely budget a decent IR illuminator in the same purchase and learn how to use it.
The IR Illum will supercharge the resolution of your clip-on in most instances and will be invaluable when needing to push past other point light sources (photonic barriers) that may fall within your FOV. Otherwise you are going to be neutered by a damn porch light in front of or a street light a block behind your concern.

Definitely having a 18mm to 25mm'ish thermal for quick scanning, searching, etc. is exceptionally valuable in day or night ops.

Besides issues with PID (this is something you cannot dismiss) thermals cannot look past transparent barriers at all. Even the thinnest glass, plastic or Lexan style synthetics will totally block thermal viewing whereas I2 type clip-ons can see what's on the other side of that and especially well with your illuminator pushing into that viewing space for you.

Once you acquire, you need to implement a dedicated qual once a quarter to document acceptable POI shift and familiarization. If you get that far, I can share a 6 to 12 round qual and target on PDF that was developed just for that.

As K.E. already mentioned, you will be WAY better served by SFP day scope paired with NV compared to FFP.


If I had a magic wand I would make every LE scope out there SFP, but that would take a whole thread to itself so I'm gonna hush before I'm sounding like one of the two old guys ranting on the Muppets.

./

 

[_Windrider_]

*Most of these men have already given good advice.

I too would suggest going with PVS-22, 30 or 27.
Definitely budget a decent IR illuminator in the same purchase and learn how to use it.
The IR Illum will supercharge the resolution of your clip-on in most instances and will be invaluable when needing to push past other point light sources (photonic barriers) that may fall within your FOV. Otherwise you are going to be neutered by a damn porch light in front of or a street light a block behind your concern.

Definitely having a 18mm to 25mm'ish thermal for quick scanning, searching, etc. is exceptionally valuable in day or night ops.

Besides issues with PID (this is something you cannot dismiss) thermals cannot look past transparent barriers at all. Even the thinnest glass, plastic or Lexan style synthetics will totally block thermal viewing whereas I2 type clip-ons can see what's on the other side of that and especially well with your illuminator pushing into that viewing space for you.

Once you acquire, you need to implement a dedicated qual once a quarter to document acceptable POI shift and familiarization. If you get that far, I can share a 6 to 12 round qual and target on PDF that was developed just for that.

As K.E. already mentioned, you will be WAY better served by SFP day scope paired with NV compared to FFP.


If I had a magic wand I would make every LE scope out there SFP, but that would take a whole thread to itself so I'm gonna hush before I'm sounding like one of the two old guys ranting on the Muppets.
View attachment 7798520


./

Is this because you want to see the reticle even at low mag?

 

[Terry Cross]

I'm typically utilized for observation, secondary to overwatch for the rest of the team. Any advice for a good jumping off point would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

If you are having to "justify" the budget request, you can certainly show examples of how the same 22, 30, 27 type units perform exceptionally well in front of spotting scopes, cameras and other optics for observation, PID and target tagging when slaved with an IR laser (which most of your illuminators would have on board).

If you have someone writing grants, be sure to emphasize this usage above or even instead of the weapon mounted use. Some grant money is easy peasy until weapons and weapon mounted are mentioned.

./

 

[Terry Cross]

Is this because you want to see the reticle even at low mag?

Yes.

EVERYTHING has to happen at low X so you can have a workable FOV.
FOV is your Holy Grail for situational awareness before the shot and then again for having any hope of getting your own BDA (Did you see it?) at the shot break.

In addition, nobody in L.E. is using any reticle elements except the center +

As mentioned above, I could type for 2 hours the FFP vs SFP thing in this application but don't want to derail @INgunner54 's thread.

./

 

[WindstormSCR]

While I am not LE, the requirements you discuss make me think you might find a hybrid solution like the safran E-COTI particularly useful, at least in the observation role.

While thermal may not be particularly useful as a standalone because of PID concerns, it will do you a lot of good in general situational awareness, and being LE you would also be able to get the necessary support to get the ATAK/hud functionality of the e-coti working.

 

[TheGerman]

There are a lot of options and vendors here. @Surgeon_Shooter can help. @SkyScrapin as well I believe dabbles in NV. TNVC like you said. Maybe @Terry Cross has some feedback for you as well to get you squared away.

Do I only get an @ when we're shooting at people?

Asking for a friend.

 

[_Windrider_]

Do I only get an @ when we're shooting at people?

Asking for a friend.

is that a bad thing?

 

[INgunner54]

Thanks for the info so far. My current scope is ffp. This was largely my fault for not doing the research before the department purchased the optic. It's a razor, and a nice scope, but after using it I would have to agree that sfp is better suited for this type of work.
Excellent point about the grant, I will absolutely try to add into my proposal the other applications for this when used with a spotter etc.
Positive ID is an obvious must have capability so I can at least start making some calls to start getting something put together.
Terry, what is a typical poi shift while using a clip on? Or is it totally dependent on the optic / n.v. device?

Thanks again for the information so far.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

The shitty part. IN to be specific.

im in western edge of ohio. youre welcome to get with me and test out a pvs-27. pvs-14's and a handful of various thermals if you would want to. pm me if so.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Thanks for the info so far. My current scope is ffp. This was largely my fault for not doing the research before the department purchased the optic. It's a razor, and a nice scope, but after using it I would have to agree that sfp is better suited for this type of work.
Excellent point about the grant, I will absolutely try to add into my proposal the other applications for this when used with a spotter etc.
Positive ID is an obvious must have capability so I can at least start making some calls to start getting something put together.
Terry, what is a typical poi shift while using a clip on? Or is it totally dependent on the optic / n.v. device?

Thanks again for the information so far.

in my experience "most" collimated clip ons fall within the 1-1.5 moa of shift. many fall under that and some fall way over that. you definitely want to test and record it. pvs-30 in my experience tends to have the least amount of shift across a large sample of units.

 

[Terry Cross]

Terry, what is a typical poi shift while using a clip on? Or is it totally dependent on the optic / n.v. device?

The main players as mentioned above will guarantee collimation =/< 1MOA.
That is their factory stated spec and should be used as your acceptable guideline for allowing it to be deployed.

For moral and legal liability reasons, you should confirm at least quarterly and document it. They should be literally plug and play from rifle to rifle without worrying about POI falling out of the 1MOA'ish limits.

Prisms can shift.
If they shift once, it means something came loose internally enough for something to move. Chances of a second shift go up exponentially with the time and circumstance being unpredictable. Accordingly if one day your unit shows a bigger than spec shift, it should be taken out of service and returned to the service center for correction.

Anybody encouraging you to just document the additional shift and "dial for it" every time should be told quickly and respectfully to kiss your ass.

I believe FLIR and Knight's list recommended envelope of alignment between their clip-on and the day scope be within 1 degree angular.
If the unit is in spec, they are even more forgiving than that.
When we are running a class, I remove a known good unit from a rifle and have a shooter fire 3 rounds with white light..... kill the white light then I hand hold the unit in front of his day scope while he fires another 3 at same aiming point. There is no way in hell I'm hand holding anywhere close to +/- 1 degree but the two groups will almost always overlap.

Hope this answers your question.

./

 

[CoryT]

Terry has pretty well covered it. My vote is the PVS-30 and a 3-10 range SFP optic. The Cadex cage for the Leupold spotter, or the Badger SLICK system lets you use it on the spotter, you can then add a camera or video unit, slave the laser pointer/illum and I add on the thermal for target detection.

Having illumination for the reticle is sometimes handy, if the brightness control is easy. Don't skimp on power for the illuminator, a FP laser system is advised. The MAWL DA is the hot ticket there, even the C1 version is quite usable for typical LE ranges.

edit to add: I personally find that a shift of over 3/4 MOA to be unacceptable for LE use and I would complain to the MFG even if it was technically within spec. It should never change, change is BAD. It should be the same between all rifles as well. I check mine on a collimation/scope calibration fixture, which is pretty simple to make up, you just need a long rail. The PVS-30 is pretty bombproof, but regular checks should be SOP.

 

[DownRangeThermal]

Happy to chat with you and answer any questions.
512-699-9510
75% of our yearly sales are to LE agencies so hopefully I can be of assistance.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Go with an UHP DBAL-A3, the 200mw adjustable illuminator doesn't really have any competition when it comes to longer range illumination or a aiming laser.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Also depending on funds and mission set, SWIR may be on the table to avoid giving away your position to anyone with a PVS-14. The Brolis S100U is a good option and has a built in laser, also with atmospheric effects the need for SWIR illumination is much lower than NIR.