Help with local range for long range 22lr

[sled_mack]

Hello,

My local range has a 200/300 yard range. Current rules require targets to be placed at the berms. The reason I’ve been given is to avoid rounds skipping past the 300 berm.

I want to convince them to allow intermediate targets for 22LR shooting. I’d like to be able to provide some supporting facts with my request. Basically, I don’t think a 22lr round has enough energy, especially at the downward angle for distances beyond 150 yards, is enough to skip over the 300 yard berm let alone all of the trees beyond the berm.

I’ve done some searching, but haven’t found anything I thought was useful. If anyone has anything they think would be useful, I’d appreciate a point in the right direction.

I can’t post an image of the range, it’s too big of a file. But here is a link to a google maps pin on the 300 yard range:
Dropped pin

40°42'00.2"N 75°47'30.8"W

maps.app.goo.gl

Thanks,

 

[ECK]

I don’t have any pictures but my range built these portable backer boards w/ 1/4” plate steel that are placed behind each target that is not up against a berm to prevent skippers. The backer boards are made out of a 2x4 frame and a plate steel that is about 30”x30”. The plate steel is inserted thru the top of the frame, and you can carry the two separately. Easily man-portable, frame in one hand, plate steel in the other.

 

[sled_mack]

I don’t have any pictures but my range built these portable backer boards w/ 1/4” plate steel that are placed behind each target that is not up against a berm to prevent skippers. The backer boards are made out of a 2x4 frame and a plate steel that is about 30”x30”. The plate steel is inserted thru the top of the frame, and you can carry the two separately. Easily man-portable, frame in one hand, plate steel in the other.

Is there a distance beyond which the backer is not required? Once you get out to 250, is 30 inches enough? A bad wind call could easily miss the backer.
Ironically, I’ve helped 4 different people zero a rifle their gunsmith boresighted but was shooting way over the 100 yards berm. RSO didn’t get excited about that? That’s a much bigger problem to me.
Thanks.

 

[JAS-SH]

Hello,

My local range has a 200/300 yard range. Current rules require targets to be placed at the berms. The reason I’ve been given is to avoid rounds skipping past the 300 berm.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. The only way a round gets away from a berm is to let loose a round over the berm.

That said, it is well known that .22 LR can travel a mile so it is considered dangerous inside that range. I visit a local open (not indoors) range where the longest line is 100.

It's in the middle of a busy city and they have side berms and thick concrete "roof" deflectors spaced out in such a way that there is no chance a round can get away from the range. You'd be surprised how many bullet impacts those concrete pieces have!

Down the road the Sheriff's department has their own range - same system.

 

[Lightning8]

Been a leader at a club. Dealt with similar issues with our 100 yard range. Yes, there is potential for rounds skipping and then leaving the range by flying over the back berm. I have seen rifle ranges where there were intermediate berms at 25, 50, 75 to help with that problem.

 

[x2cross]

Is it a built-up berm separating ranges on the left side of the longest range, or is it just a row of trees? If a berm, just put targets up along the very edge so all rounds impact a berm. Or see if the range will add several small berms along the side.

 

[RTH1800]

Folks in charge generally don’t like change or being told what to do.

 

[Badjujuu]

We have same rules at out club for our general members. On our 200 yard bay, we have a 100 yard small side berm with backers. Our 600 has side berms every 100 yards.
Not too helpful for 22lr.

Here is what I did - I started to run monthly Nrl22 matches at our club, and because those matches were sanctioned by our BOD, the placement of targets at various distances was a non issue. On top of that, I schedule and reserve 100 yard bay for Nrl22 practice days, which let's me place the steel targets anywhere I want.

For us, as long as it's a sanctioned event, whoever is running the event has the permission to place targets as needed.

But I completely understand your frustration, as it's hard to practice or get your dope if you're limited to only shooting 50/100/200 yard bays without any targets in between.

 

[Hoser]

We have the same rule at our club, but luckily we run our rimfire matches on the silhouette range where there are berms every 25 yards.

Come up with a formal proposal, all professional like, and present it to the board.

Consider things like how will move the dirt, where the dirt will come from, who will pay for it, how having intermediate berms will make things safer for everyone, who will maintain the berms, ect, ect.

I am on the board at my club. When someone shows up with an idea and has done a lot of homework, the chances of it happening are very good compared to the dude that raises his hand and says "I have an idea, you guys figure it out." Also lay some groundwork with board members prior to the formal proposal at a meeting. That way when you bring it up, several board members can say "Thats an excellent idea."

 

[sled_mack]

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. The only way a round gets away from a berm is to let loose a round over the berm.

That said, it is well known that .22 LR can travel a mile so it is considered dangerous inside that range. I visit a local open (not indoors) range where the longest line is 100.

It's in the middle of a busy city and they have side berms and thick concrete "roof" deflectors spaced out in such a way that there is no chance a round can get away from the range. You'd be surprised how many bullet impacts those concrete pieces have!

Down the road the Sheriff's department has their own range - same system.

The concern is the round falling short of the berm and skipping over the berm.

I get that a 22LR can go a mile fired into the air. I’d like to show some data that after traveling 100 yards the remaining energy and angle of impact will result in a “skip” that won’t escape the far berm.

Best I can do right now is use a ballistics calculator to show reduced energy and approximate angle of impact. But if someone said show proof, I’m stuck.

 

[sled_mack]

Is it a built-up berm separating ranges on the left side of the longest range, or is it just a row of trees? If a berm, just put targets up along the very edge so all rounds impact a berm. Or see if the range will add several small berms along the side.

The left side is a high dirt berm. I like the idea of placing targets so misses impact there. But, is the angle of impact any better than the ground? Is it just skipping a different direction?

 

[25ring]

The concern is the round falling short of the berm and skipping over the berm.

I get that a 22LR can go a mile fired into the air. I’d like to show some data that after traveling 100 yards the remaining energy and angle of impact will result in a “skip” that won’t escape the far berm.

Best I can do right now is use a ballistics calculator to show reduced energy and approximate angle of impact. But if someone said show proof, I’m stuck.

We used to allow 22 swingers to be placed without a berm behind them on our 100yd range until one hot summer the ground became rock hard and we could hear ricochets from the misses. Figured out pretty quick you need some sort of berm behind them.

 

[sled_mack]

We have the same rule at our club, but luckily we run our rimfire matches on the silhouette range where there are berms every 25 yards.

Come up with a formal proposal, all professional like, and present it to the board.

Consider things like how will move the dirt, where the dirt will come from, who will pay for it, how having intermediate berms will make things safer for everyone, who will maintain the berms, ect, ect.

I am on the board at my club. When someone shows up with an idea and has done a lot of homework, the chances of it happening are very good compared to the dude that raises his hand and says "I have an idea, you guys figure it out." Also lay some groundwork with board members prior to the formal proposal at a meeting. That way when you bring it up, several board members can say "Thats an excellent idea."

Part of the problem is that the board considers it a shotgun club with rifle range to sight in hunting rifles. It wasn’t until the pistol guys showed they bring in more than 5 times the money as shotgun shooters that they were able to build the pistol bays. The pistol guys have no interest in helping, as it’s no use to them. The board hears rifle range and just cuts me off.
I need to show a solution that doesn’t require them to do anything at all. Even if I have a great solution, there’s no guarantee they will even hear me out. But if I don’t try, it’ll never happen.

 

[1813Benny]

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. The only way a round gets away from a berm is to let loose a round over the berm.

That said, it is well known that .22 LR can travel a mile so it is considered dangerous inside that range. I visit a local open (not indoors) range where the longest line is 100.

It's in the middle of a busy city and they have side berms and thick concrete "roof" deflectors spaced out in such a way that there is no chance a round can get away from the range. You'd be surprised how many bullet impacts those concrete pieces have!

Down the road the Sheriff's department has their own range - same system.

The OP wants to put targets at intermediate distances (I.e. at 150 yds) where there is no berm type backstop immediately behind the target.

 

[B y r o n]

I don't think you are going to find much data about bullet ricochets. Years ago while in basic training we had a beach range with the berm backed by the ocean. One day a plane was flying over the ocean in the distance and the range officer called an immediate cease fire and most of us didn't understand why since we were shooting into a large berm. Later we had a night shoot at the same range. When the command to fire was given it became apparent why there was a cease fire when the plane flew past the range over the ocean. Tracer rounds that struck the berm were seen going airborne and travelling out to sea where the plane had previously been flying. Seems once the bullet strikes the ground there is no way to know if it will bury itself or skip off into the atmosphere and continue down range. Now I know that you're going to say this was with .223 rounds but the concept is the same even for .22LR.

 

[ECK]

Is there a distance beyond which the backer is not required? Once you get out to 250, is 30 inches enough? A bad wind call could easily miss the backer.

Thanks.

Mostly what I’ve seen is the 30” backers are used for targets 100 yds and in. For targets beyond 100 I believe we’re limited to putting the targets up against the 200 and 300 yd berms. So may not be a solution for what you’re trying to do…

 

[lash]

The left side is a high dirt berm. I like the idea of placing targets so misses impact there. But, is the angle of impact any better than the ground? Is it just skipping a different direction?

That depends. If the angle of impact is at our greater than 15 degrees, no ricochet. Also, most berms are softer than the ground, allowing for penetration instead of ricochet.

Then plan to shoot the intermediate targets all from the right side of the Firing Line, increasing your angle of impact.

 

[1813Benny]

Part of the problem is that the board considers it a shotgun club with rifle range to sight in hunting rifles. It wasn’t until the pistol guys showed they bring in more than 5 times the money as shotgun shooters that they were able to build the pistol bays. The pistol guys have no interest in helping, as it’s no use to them. The board hears rifle range and just cuts me off.
I need to show a solution that doesn’t require them to do anything at all. Even if I have a great solution, there’s no guarantee they will even hear me out. But if I don’t try, it’ll never happen.

Ok, before I respond in detail, for full disclosure I am a life member at this specific club and joined back in 1981 as part of the jr rifle team. Was active until I moved out of state in December 2009.

The 200/300 yd range has target backstop berms at 200 and 300 yards. It is a relatively narrow range.

The issue with intermediate targets on this range is due to safety. If my memory is correct, the range has a slight uphill grade. The ground has a high shale / rock content and as everyone knows ricochets are anything but predictable. It may just be a .22 but they are dangerous to 1.5 miles as listed.

With that in mind, take a look at the satellite view on google maps. Drawing a straight line through the center axis of the 200/300 yd range towards the north, what do you see past the 300 yd impact berm?

A house.

A .22 with a relatively low skip can clear the range. I have shot on many ranges across the United States - in excess of 500k rounds, and I can honestly say I would deny intermediate targets in this situation.

Now, if a temporary/ movable steel enclosed trap type backstop was fabricated - it may be a possible solution. Not a cheap solution nor easy to move, but at least a suggestion.

Regards,
Ken

 

[sled_mack]

To be clear, I’m not looking to advocate for something unsafe. If my research shows it’s n possible to do safely here, then it’s time to find a new range. Unfortunately, this one is 15 minutes from my house. The 2 places I know I can do this are 3 plus hours away.

Just before I moved back here in 2014, they just finished a big grading project on all ranges. At this time, the 200/300 is pretty flat.

It is also too narrow to use the side berm. Maybe if there were “notches” cut into it for target hangers. Or protrusions of soft dirt. But as it is now, the berms are all rock and shale.

Someone else tried to get NRL22 going here. He couldn’t show enough profit to get approval for a match. I tried to help get people interested from our other matches, but it wasn’t enough.

 

[Hoser]

Here is the lat long of our range.

The main backstop at 200 meters is about 25-30 feet tall. All the intermediate backstops are 2-3 feet tall.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/38°24'42.3%22N+104°42'45.8%22W/@38.41175,-104.7127222,1242m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x667460f45d6a48e0!8m2!3d38.4117477!4d-104.7127192?hl=en-US

 

[Hoser]

Part of the problem is that the board considers it a shotgun club with rifle range to sight in hunting rifles. It wasn’t until the pistol guys showed they bring in more than 5 times the money as shotgun shooters that they were able to build the pistol bays. The pistol guys have no interest in helping, as it’s no use to them. The board hears rifle range and just cuts me off.
I need to show a solution that doesn’t require them to do anything at all. Even if I have a great solution, there’s no guarantee they will even hear me out. But if I don’t try, it’ll never happen.

Find a board member that will hear you out and not at a meeting. See what ideas he might have. In the end, trying to make it their idea is always a path to try.

 

[DFOOSKING]

A few years back we asked to use the local Isaac Walton range for NRL22. It's a range that's existed in town for like 40 years or more. The town of 12,000 slowly enveloped the range.

It has 10' side berms along the length and a big +30' berm as a main backstop at the back. And then there are these little small like 3' high mini berms in behind each distance specific to the silhouette match standards.

Part of the deal with the city that was made originally with the Isaac Walton was in order for the range to be built...the public had to have access to it. So for decades, the local population could pay like $2 and get a key to the gate (that you brought back) and use the range on days/times that didn't impede XYZ groups from using it. And the silhouette club maintained the range as part of the deal for them to have their berms there and hold their events.

So when we asked the local Isaac Walton committee to use the range for NRL22....we initially got the go ahead. But members of the silhouette club quickly came and complained we weren't placing the targets at the mini berms.

That said, there are no limiting overhead baffles in front of the firing line to keep rounds from going high. No concrete tubes you shoot through to keep rounds from going low.

So when I heard the news that we getting a complaint that we weren't being safe and using the mini berms I simply asked....

"In the like 40yrs of the pistol silhouette club and "Joe Q. Random" public using the open 200 meter range with zero oversight from LE or a even range officer of any type....not one person....using a pistol let alone a rifle....has EVER had a round hit the grass?

So, not one master, nor amateur, nor youth....anyone....has ever come up short and hit the lawn. Or shot over a mini berm being confused on which is which hitting the lawn behind? Not one person on the weekend came in to sight a rifle for deer season and ever missed the 100yd berm low?

The range maintained a perfect safety record unsupervised and until we arrived shooting NRL22...

Now I am not saying that ricochets aren't possible. I am honestly wanting to know one thing. Was the range safe when everyone else was using it? Or wasn't it?

They damn well could forsee rounds missing the mini berms. They KNEW the point of the side berms and massive rear berm were there to catch rounds. And if they did bounce they had to have a exit angle that the berms protected the local populace and homes outside the range. The steep angle up after losing energy on the skip should have the round burning up its energy likely tumbling the whole way up and out.

I haven't seen or heard of anyone ever reporting being shot from an errant round leaving the range. Or home/business being hit for that matter. And you damn well know if it had happened the Isaac Walton committee members would become the first to know about it. The city knows and accepts the layout. Is that to say they (or me) can't be wrong? Of course not.

But at what point was the range design doing it job with everyone shooting there. And at what point when we showed up it was no longer safe? And how?

 

[sled_mack]

In the last 3 years or so we have RSO on duty most of the time.

I had one RSO chase me off the 25 yard pistol range for using my 9mm PCC, which is allowed. He said it looked too much like a rifle. But he allowed a guy with a 308 TC Contender to keep shooting because it is technically a pistol.

Another allowed a guy with a new rifle to put at least 50 rounds of 308 over the berm trying to zero with me telling them I was watching the trace go at least 6 feet over the berm. Because the RSO knew the gunsmith that bore sighted it, he said it was impossible to be off by that much.

So the range has had plenty of rounds over the berm. That doesn’t justify a single round in the future going over the berm. But I think it’s a legitimate question- can a 22LR landing short clear the 200 or 300 berms, and the wall of 50 feet tall trees, and fly 550 yards to the nearest point of danger (the house beyond the 300 yard berm)? I probably can’t prove that it’s impossible. But I think I can show it is extremely unlikely.

Since we have RSO on duty, I’m fine with having to qualify to make use of this.

I did have one RSO willing to support my effort on this. Unfortunately, he left the club. So I’ve got to find someone new to take my side on this.
There are more 22LR long range shooters every year, ma that agree with my idea, but none that are willing to help me. Some are concerned about getting booted fr the club bringing this up to the board.

Considering the house 850 yards from the firing line. What angle up is required to get a round out that far (JBM can give me that)? Now, does a round bouncing off the ground at 250 have the energy to go that far? And can it bounce at the angle needed to do that? That’s my challenge - to prove that out either way.

 

[Badjujuu]

My SK Long Range at 700 yards has a 1113.8 absolute drop in inches, or about 93 feet. Strelok wont let me key in 850 in the data table to see the drop for your distance

Kestrel is telling me to dial 53.8 mils for a target at 850. Even with my set up, if I max out my dial at 22 mils (60 moa scope base), I would still have to hold over 31.8 mils to attempt to hit that target. My reticle allows me to hold 14 mils.
I would probably need a Charlie Tarac or some other prism to be able to get that elevation for 850 yards with my scope.

You would have to be purposely malicious or really reckless to point the barrel that far up to overshoot the berm at such angle.

Our furthest bay is 600, next time I'm out i can see how far up my barrel is pointing up when I dial and hold over for 600 (dial 23 hold 7.3).

Below is a pin to our 600 yard range. If you look to the right, you'll see a farmhouse. The club now owns the farm after settlement with the owners who claimed rounds were hitting their dwelling. The berm at our 600 is I believe 90' one.

Dropped pin

41°45'04.3"N 88°47'42.4"W · 41.751186, -88.795103

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[6.5SH]

My SK Long Range at 700 yards has a 1113.8 absolute drop in inches, or about 93 feet. Strelok wont let me key in 850 in the data table to see the drop for your distance

Kestrel is telling me to dial 53.8 mils for a target at 850. Even with my set up, if I max out my dial at 22 mils (60 moa scope base), I would still have to hold over 31.8 mils to attempt to hit that target. My reticle allows me to hold 14 mils.
I would probably need a Charlie Tarac or some other prism to be able to get that elevation for 850 yards with my scope.

You would have to be purposely malicious or really reckless to point the barrel that far up to overshoot the berm at such angle.

Our furthest bay is 600, next time I'm out i can see how far up my barrel is pointing up when I dial and hold over for 600 (dial 23 hold 7.3).

Below is a pin to our 600 yard range. If you look to the right, you'll see a farmhouse. The club now owns the farm after settlement with the owners who claimed rounds were hitting their dwelling. The berm at our 600 is I believe 90' one.

Dropped pin

41°45'04.3"N 88°47'42.4"W · 41.751186, -88.795103

maps.app.goo.gl

If you use the single target menu in Strelok you can click the icon that looks like a target with a note pad, it will give more details including max ord, remaining velocity etc. To go past 850 on the chart click the gear icon there and change your end distance.

ETA:
2658.7" of absolute drop is what I get for SK Std +
78.28 ft max ord @ 499 yards
365 fps remaining velocity, 12 ft/lb energy

 

[Badjujuu]

Hmmm, i tired the setting tool to adjust the end distance but it keeps resetting to 700. Same with step distance - the only options i have is every 10 or 50 yards. Not sure what in the world.

But here is the single target data

 

[6.5SH]

Weird, might check it's up to date, failing that shoot Igor an email, he is pretty quick to respond.

 

[acudaowner]

something like this might work for you if not this one maybe something like it

 

[MajorD]

The inexpensive ( about $40 as I recall ) outers brand I think 22 bullet traps might be a solution for you. Frame them with double thickness 2x6 or even a railroad tie frame, and you should be set. Sure someone could miss the entire trap and supporting beams but that would fall into the highly unlikely category.
plus after you are done empty the lead out of the traps and seal it for scrap value.

 

[sled_mack]

The purchased bullet traps wouldn’t be big enough for these distances. The narrow range limits the strong winds, but I think 3 feet square for anything beyond 200.

 

[sled_mack]

Using JBM, Aguila match rifle has a G1 of .197. MV of 1100 has a residual velocity of just under 900 at 200 yards.

Treating a ricochet as a fresh shot, the bullet has to leave at an elevation of 51 MIL to go the remaining 650 yards.

But that assumes no bullet deformation, no change to RPM, and no loss of velocity from the impact.

If I cut the G1 to 0.1, it changes to 73 MIL to go the remaining 650 yards.

Setting the zero distance to 650, the bullet rise would be 14 ft in the first case and 20 ft for the reduced BC. So over the berm, but not over the trees.

I have to run more numbers and give it more thought. Being such a narrow range, putting out big bullet traps would obscure the view for anyone else trying to use that range.

 

[lycokayaker]

target stands. Get them up so all shots are in backstop

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I don't think you are going to find much data about bullet ricochets. Years ago while in basic training we had a beach range with the berm backed by the ocean. One day a plane was flying over the ocean in the distance and the range officer called an immediate cease fire and most of us didn't understand why since we were shooting into a large berm. Later we had a night shoot at the same range. When the command to fire was given it became apparent why there was a cease fire when the plane flew past the range over the ocean. Tracer rounds that struck the berm were seen going airborne and travelling out to sea where the plane had previously been flying. Seems once the bullet strikes the ground there is no way to know if it will bury itself or skip off into the atmosphere and continue down range. Now I know that you're going to say this was with .223 rounds but the concept is the same even for .22LR.

Saw the exact same thing at Polk during infantry AIT. Firing M-60’s at night. Tracers hit the bern and flew almost straight up. One tracer in seven rounds. It was impressive, and eye opening. Now a .22 is not going to have near the energy as a 7.62x51 so the comparison may not be valid. However, one can wonder if their berms are even safe.

My friend and fellow IHMSA match director has a personal range on his property using the steel back plates noted above in in @ECK ‘s post. Work great for spotting misses. His are built from the ground up and they are movable.

My thoughts are, some ranges are run by humans who understand and some ranges are run by stubborn, stupid snobs, who make joe biden look sharp and hillary clinton look nice.

 

[shoobe01]

...The only way a round gets away from a berm is to let loose a round over the berm...

Not true. And I have seen...

...Tracer rounds that struck the berm were seen going airborne and travelling out to sea where the plane had previously been flying. Seems once the bullet strikes the ground there is no way to know if it will bury itself or skip off into the atmosphere and continue down range...

...as well. Berms are built to be soft material to absorb the impact and reduce blowback striking other materials like previous bullets, and — as much as practical — for bullets to strike as close to perpendicular as you can get it. Rocks and even trees can cause bullets to deflect their trajectory, as much as 100° (sideways or up, and slightly back at you, yes) with a significant component of their velocity. Side berms are critical for safety here and/or the reason a WHOLE firing line must always be shut down; strikes on things like target frames totally send buzzing bullets flying over heads on adjacent ranges.
Shallow strikes onto the ground can retain almost all of the velocity and skip or "roll" along the ground, even over obstacles such as a berm downrange from the initial impact point. This is also known and taught to at least some soldiers and Marines: don't stand /right/ against a wall, in an urban fight for example, as a richochet can travel along the wall, but even back 6" and you are less likely to be struck by those.
The ranges I shoot on almost entirely have significant dead space beyond all berms (and all shots face outside the range, no ranges beyond other ranges) with wooded floodplains extending several hundred additional yards that are club property and no one is allowed to go there even though behind a berm and well below the firing line level.

To the OP's issue, .22 LR is — so I have been told — rather more dangerous than many other projectiles because it is unjacketed soft lead so much more likely do deform instead of fragmenting, and relatively stubby so when it tumbles looses relatively less aerodynamic performance than a spitzer bullet will.

I cannot immediately find direct measured evidence of max richochet ranges for range-design for .22LR specifically, but there are many stories of them causing injury or death at long ranges:

There is a famous case of an incident and subsequent manslaughter through negligence prosecution that took place in this country last century - can't find a link. The shooter fired at a bird or squirrel or something in a tree, missed and the bullet trajectory took it over the summit of a rise or low hill that the shooter had assumed would provide a backstop. At some extreme range, over 1,100 yards, it plunged into the eye socket of a man who was picknicking with his family on the reverse slopes and he'd lain down face up to sunbathe. By very bad luck, the bullet trajectory took it straight through an eye into the brain. Expert ballistic forensic evidence in the trial said it terminal energy was only 10 or 11 ft/lb, but hit in the wrong place and you can still do major harm.

Experiments might be worth it, with the specific range. Get some .22 tracer (and do this in not dry conditions, set a fire watch to sit there, ideally with a thermal scope, for some hours afterwards, etc) with lots of observers, at different angles so they can see for sure where the skips go, and fire a number of rounds on a cloudy day or at dusk, see where they go on the actual ground you have.

If the range or safe beyond-range area is deep enough then intermediate-range skips may be safe in the sense they all land on the range property anyway. This could prove it out for anyone with eyes. Or, prove to you that it does pose a risk and present other data so you can work around the real world threats for course design in future.

 

[obx22]

You are in a tough spot. I had to conduct a test to definitively prove to the sheriffs dept and the power company that rounds we fired at silhouette matches were not skipping over the berm and impacting the power lines.
Shooting groups with every rimfire I owned at the time, from a 3.5” handgun to a 29.5” schutzen rifle, I was unable to replicate the aiming error they claimed within the adjustment range of available sights at that time. The targets went to the club prez who met with and presented the findings. Didn’t mean much till they removed the damaged cable and found, not rimfire slugs, but 9mm and 40S&W slugs wedged in the strands.
This pic is of a truck hood used as a backer to spot out misses while sighting in for a .22 soda can challenge out to 300yds.
The standard velocity rounds punched clean through the heavy gauge steel hood.
In your area, you might review ordinances as to required impact area distances beyond the berm, and how much land is actually available.

 

[sled_mack]

target stands. Get them up so all shots are in backstop

I like this idea. Use JBM to show that a minimum target height from 50 to 190 yards results in an impact on the berm at 200. Repeat for 200 to 300.

I think I’d have to run the numbers for a spread of subsonic to some hyper velocity 22LR. Maybe just stipulate that 22 shorts are not allowed?

Let’s say I run the numbers for a 6 inch target (very generous for 200 yards, but no one believes it’s possible to hit a target that size beyond 100 yards right now), what is a reasonable miss under the target? 6 inches? 12 inches? Missing to the side or over top shouldn’t be an issue.

I think I’m talking myself into this being a feature that requires some sort of pre-approval. At least show the RSO that you have data for the distance and it roughly makes sense. (We really should do this for every one at 300. We have a lot of hunters refusing to believe their 308 drop is more than 4 inches and they skip rounds into the berm. See it every fall.)

As I type this, I realize I need to be very careful in how I present it. If I’m not careful, all I’m going to accomplish is to show that 22LR is not safe at all on these ranges. I don’t want to go backwards and get restricted to the 100 yard range. The bottom line is that no one can guarantee that a shooter will always remember to dial or hold over the target. Or lose track of where they are in rotations for elevation. That’s going to happen regardless of where the target is relative to the berm. So I need to propose a safe method without making it seem like what is happening today is unsafe. That feels like a really fine line at the moment.

 

[DFOOSKING]

Could you not factor what the fps is at the nearest and farthest plate racks.

Then look at the minimum angle required to leave the range on say a side berm.

Using the fps and angle of departure...how far a round in pristine condition (because that is worst case scenario) can travel. With most likely the bullet will not be pristine nor will it be flying true.

I would think the berms (if they were initially engineered right) + the added trees on top of the berms would maintain an exit angle that bullets will be falling (not while climbing up and out but once gravity overtakes it)....will only have the impact energy of mass of the bullet itself falling at terminal velocity (speed attained by gravity and wind resistance).

MY novice, non physics-ical type unscientific opinion is a hail storm dropping 0.25" - 1.25" icy hail balls is potentially more mass falling than a .22lr rimfire bullet....and you don't see people running for their lives in abject terror of a minor hail storm.

 

[MarkCZ]

Hello,

My local range has a 200/300 yard range. Current rules require targets to be placed at the berms. The reason I’ve been given is to avoid rounds skipping past the 300 berm.

I want to convince them to allow intermediate targets for 22LR shooting. I’d like to be able to provide some supporting facts with my request. Basically, I don’t think a 22lr round has enough energy, especially at the downward angle for distances beyond 150 yards, is enough to skip over the 300 yard berm let alone all of the trees beyond the berm.

I’ve done some searching, but haven’t found anything I thought was useful. If anyone has anything they think would be useful, I’d appreciate a point in the right direction.

I can’t post an image of the range, it’s too big of a file. But here is a link to a google maps pin on the 300 yard range:
Dropped pin

40°42'00.2"N 75°47'30.8"W

maps.app.goo.gl

Thanks,

This is my range RRRC in Roanoke VA. I had a slow start to get this match going from the start with the board. I wanted berms, but some did not want berms in the center, others wanted them on the side. we ended up with berms mostly in the center. I want the berms to see missed impacts.

Can you add berms in the center like ours? Or can you add berms to the side. A berm can be just wide enough to cover the targets you are shooting. We had rails and berm at 225yds. , 330yds , 425 yds and 500yds. We add rail and berms at 150yds, 200yds. and 285yds.

See this post at #5

RRRC Long Range 22LR Match format update

Roanoke Rifle and Revolver Club 22LR Long Range 22LR Match We have 1.5" eggs targets, 2" and 3" square steel targets, 5" X 2.5" IDPA, and 4" square, 6" square, and 8" square steel knockdown targets, that can be shot at berms at 150yds, 200yds, 220 yds and 285 yds, 330yds, and 400yds. 2 min...

www.snipershide.com

Good luck with long range 22LR match/shooting

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

Here is a Google Earth view of the range being discussed.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

A couple of thoughts on your question...

How far back does the club property line go behind the berm? In Google Earth, there is quite a distance from the berms to the nearest structure, with dense trees in between.

If you allow sighting in of high powered rifles on the same range, the "skipping" issues would be the same, but with a much more powerful round. Why would that be allowed but not allowed for .22LR rounds? Not to be argumentative, but to be comparative.

Also, why not put a 4-5 ft berm at one intermediate distance, and use that (as a proposal to the Board)? You have a very tall berm in the back (30ft+?), and if you shoot targets in front of the intermediate berm, under normal conditions, this should work.

Now, how to deal with skipping rounds. The risk is already present with high powered rifles at the range, so with a .22LR, the risk would be lower, due to less energy of the round.

At any range, with any configuration, you run the risk of folks shooting in the air, or skipping rounds off the ground. You need to take appropriate precautions, and make sure shooters are informed of the risks of their actions. Otherwise, if you go down this path, you can rationalize why any range should be closed due to the risk of rounds leaving the property (already, not just with the intermediate berms for .22LR shooting).

A few thoughts for your consideration...

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

One additional thought, consult with an engineer who designs ranges, and get his/her input on the situation. That could be a nice touch when you discuss with the Board if you are proposing to follow the Engineers recommendations. Facts and data should be considered for this kind of a proposal.

Good luck!

 

[1813Benny]

How far back does the club property line go behind the berm? In Google Earth, there is quite a distance from the berms to the nearest structure, with dense trees in between.

The house, if I remember correctly is about 700 yards past the berm at 300 yards on an uphill grade from the range.

If you allow sighting in of high powered rifles on the same range, the "skipping" issues would be the same, but with a much more powerful round. Why would that be allowed but not allowed for .22LR rounds? Not to be argumentative, but to be comparative.

The current target frames are immediately in front of the impact berms at 200 and 300 yards. Midrange shooting is not allowed. Unless there is an accidental discharge, by having the impact berm immediately behind the target there is no chance for a round leaving the range.

It boils down to the fact that a mid-range shooting rule had to be implemented due to the house being built behind the 200/300 yard backstops.

From the club’s perspective, you are asking to risk the outdoor ranges or it’s possible existence with a potential significant capital investment with no realistic ROI. Unless you convince the Board that additional midrange berms or sizable movable bullet traps are worth the investment and can be SAFELY implemented, it is an uphill challenge.

 

[DFOOSKING]

I would think that the home owner had to know that placing their structure that close to an active rifle range was a potential risk. Someone at some point brought it to their attention. County Ordnances should have addressed its building (or the ranges...whichever came first) to keep its populace safe.

We had a guy build his fancy place under 300yds from the long long standing rifle ranges rear most berm. He had to sign a bunch to clear it with the city.

^Note the scale at the bottom.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

I've updated the Google Earth screen shot to include an estimate of the distance from the end of the 300 yard berm to the first structure in the line of shooting... Looks like that structure is about 565 yards past the end of the berm, with dense trees between the two locations.

FYI only.