Help with my Enfield

[Rookie]

I have a No4 Mk2(F) that I was hoping someone could give me some history on. I know it was built in 1949 and has numbers matching receiver, bolt and stock. The mag is not numbered. It appears to have been in conflict somewhere as the foregrip of the stock is somewhat banged up and the bore looks battle worn. The first two inches or so of rifling past the throat appears pretty flat. I have scoped the bore but have no way to take pics of that. It functions properly but I would not say it is accurate with factory ammo. Early research told me that there was alot of variance in bore diameter and my dial calipers tell me this bore measures .308 inches. I have reloading dies and loaded up some 308 cal 175gr SMKs by pulling the expander mandrel out of the 303 sizer die to give better neck tension on the smaller bullets, and it shot quite a bit better but not great. The bore copper fouls the worst I've experienced. I spent hours cleaning the bore with various cleaning solutions including multiple applications of Sweets. Once the copper was gone, I then polished the bore repeatedly with JB Bore Bright. Now that the bore seems to be ultra clean I'm thinking about using Tubb Final Finish bullets and a fresh crown to see if I can improve accuracy. Not trying to make a precision rifle out of it but it came to me as a 8 MOA rifle or worse. As Larry Potterfield says, "Only accurate rifles are interesting rifles."

Its serial numbered PF131XXX. I've included pics in hopes that someone might be able to tell me country of manufacture, and maybe where it fought. I see no markings on the gun anywhere indicating origin including the "wrist band". Maybe you guys can help??

 

[Sooter76]

Yours was made at Fazakerly in Great Britain sometime after 1951... It's an Irish contract rifle based on the prefix and serial number range (PF 309348 - PF 359347).

 

[Sooter76]

8 MOA is insanely bad for a Lee Enfield or really any milsurp rifle. I honestly don't think Tubb's FF is going to help you much, if at all.

Is this a shooter or a collector rifle? If you have it as a shooter I'd recommend replacing the barrel (Criterion make LE .303 barrels). The rifle doesn't look that beat up, so my best guess is someone shot corrosive ammo out of it and didn't clean it. Or, it's been restocked and whoever did it didn't know what they were doing (LE's have to be fit properly for good accuracy). Regardless, no LE that isn't shot out should shoot that poorly.

 

[Rookie]

Yours was made at Fazakerly in Great Britain sometime after 1951... It's an Irish contract rifle based on the prefix and serial number range (PF 309348 - PF 359347).

So how can you consider 131xxx in the range of 309xxx to 359xxx? Not arguing just looking to get educated.

 

[Sooter76]

So how can you consider 131xxx in the range of 309xxx to 359xxx? Not arguing just looking to get educated.

My apologies, I misread the first number as part of the stamp...

Your’s would have been from the first batch (PF 118000 - PF 217999), probably made in 1949. Therefore, not a contract rifle and meant for the British Army proper.

 

[Rookie]

That makes more sense. Any way to tell where its been? Seems to have been shot alot. I read that the thin contour barrels were easily bent by bayonet use which may explain why my front sight needs to be drifted quite a bit.

 

[Sooter76]

That makes more sense. Any way to tell where its been? Seems to have been shot alot. I read that the thin contour barrels were easily bent by bayonet use which may explain why my front sight needs to be drifted quite a bit.

Not really... The No1 MkIII’s had unit discs that could help narrow things down, but unless you could get your hands on and wanted to go thru old inventory unit records I don’t know how.

Never heard that about the bayonet... The barrels really aren’t that thin. They’re actually significantly heavier than the barrels on the No1 rifles and heavier than most other rifles of the era.

 

[Rookie]

After your comment about barrel thickness I went back and reread Roy Dunlap's chapter on British Small Arms in his book, Ordnance Went Up Front. It does appear that he's speaking of the no1 not the no4.

That is a good book by the way. It contains some information from Ackley's testing that involved intentionally blowing up various military rifle actions for strength testing.

 

[Danger Mouse]

I have a No4 Mk2(F) that I was hoping someone could give me some history on. I know it was built in 1949 and has numbers matching receiver, bolt and stock. The mag is not numbered. It appears to have been in conflict somewhere as the foregrip of the stock is somewhat banged up and the bore looks battle worn. The first two inches or so of rifling past the throat appears pretty flat. I have scoped the bore but have no way to take pics of that. It functions properly but I would not say it is accurate with factory ammo. Early research told me that there was alot of variance in bore diameter and my dial calipers tell me this bore measures .308 inches. I have reloading dies and loaded up some 308 cal 175gr SMKs by pulling the expander mandrel out of the 303 sizer die to give better neck tension on the smaller bullets, and it shot quite a bit better but not great. The bore copper fouls the worst I've experienced. I spent hours cleaning the bore with various cleaning solutions including multiple applications of Sweets. Once the copper was gone, I then polished the bore repeatedly with JB Bore Bright. Now that the bore seems to be ultra clean I'm thinking about using Tubb Final Finish bullets and a fresh crown to see if I can improve accuracy. Not trying to make a precision rifle out of it but it came to me as a 8 MOA rifle or worse. As Larry Potterfield says, "Only accurate rifles are interesting rifles."

Its serial numbered PF131XXX. I've included pics in hopes that someone might be able to tell me country of manufacture, and maybe where it fought. I see no markings on the gun anywhere indicating origin including the "wrist band". Maybe you guys can help??

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Evening from new Zealand. I collect Enfield so have a little bit of knowledge on them. The 8/49 marking is the month and year of manufacturing.

I suspect the poor accuracy is at least partially due to the projectiles you are using. Getting .311 diameter which the 303 british needs should make an improvement. Your looking for around 2450 fps with a 174 grain projectile. Hornady, speer and sierra all make the right projectiles.

With iron sights it is possible to get a 3 inch 5 round group at 100. I compete with them in service rifle shooting down here, and find that giving a light crimp when reloading also helps.

If you only neck size you will extend brass life considerably. But if you use it in another rifle you will need to full length size. There is significant variation in chamber size between rifles. I'm up to 9 reloads with my brass now. Full length sizing only you are more likely to see 4 or 5 reloads before you get splits.

 

[Sooter76]

I suspect the poor accuracy is at least partially due to the projectiles you are using. Getting .311 diameter which the 303 british needs should make an improvement. Your looking for around 2450 fps with a 174 grain projectile. Hornady, speer and sierra all make the right projectiles.

Hell, I competent missed that he said he was using .308 bullets...

 

[Rookie]

As I said factory .311 bullets shoot like crap so thats why I switched to .308 after measuring the bore. Accuracy improved. Pulling the expander mandrel out of the 303 Brit sizer die gave an outside neck diameter of .309 and enough neck tension to hold the smaller bullets.

 

[340mech]

Have you investigated the bedding? These rifles can be very sensitive about the fitting of the forend. For starters, the barrel should bear down on the tip and should be free to move up with about four pounds of pressure. There's a lot of info about this on the interwebs. Milsurps.com is very good.

 

[Sooter76]

As I said factory .311 bullets shoot like crap so thats why I switched to .308 after measuring the bore. Accuracy improved. Pulling the expander mandrel out of the 303 Brit sizer die gave an outside neck diameter of .309 and enough neck tension to hold the smaller bullets.

We’re you using boat tail pills? If so try some flat based projectiles first. Some LE’s are sensitive to the boat tail and shoot flat base bullets much better. I’ve never heard of a (non-Ishapore .308) having such a tight bore.

 

[Dan M]

^^^^
This. Use flat based bullets.

Did you slug the bore? That would be significantly undersized unless it happened to be a Canadian Arsenals Ltd 7.62 NATO barrel, but those are clearly marked in front of the front sight.

OP, You said that accuracy improved after switching to .308 diameter projectiles... you also said that it was an 8 minute gun...how did the SMKs perform? Better than 8 minutes?...throwing handfulls of unfired cartridges at the target could accomplish that...all kidding aside, try flat based bullets

 

[Danger Mouse]

If its completely shot out it might need a new barrel. Criterion makes brand new ones for engield for about 600nzd, so about 400usd.

 

[Rookie]

The .308 bullets i used were boatail. Will try flat based, I think I have some. I learned from Milsurps.com about stock pressure on the barrel. My barrel is getting pressure from the left side. Should I sand some wood off the inside left?

 

[Rookie]

BTW, I appreciate you guys sticking with me on this.

 

[Eddystone]

BTW, I appreciate you guys sticking with me on this.

I am wondering regardless of bore diameter, the groove diameter is what dictates bullet od, ie. 30 cal bore plus .004 on each side = .308. .303 rifle have .311-.314 grooves ( or so I understand). Point being .308 may be the bore size, but if the bullet doesn't fit or seal the bore of the grooves, gas leakage, flame cutting of the bullet. and copper fouling will result is poor precision of bullets down at the target. Just thinking on this.

 

[Rookie]

So I'm thinking I'll try and remove some wood from the inside of the left side of the forend.

 

[MK20]

Before you start removing stuff, slug your bore. Get a .32 cal round lead musket ball and use a non marring rod to start it into your bore. Then push it through with a cleaning rod. Measure the ball with your calipers for a true bore diameter. I would guess that if you just stuck your calipers in the bore you will get a smaller reading that is not true.

This process seems like it is hard and will hurt your gun. It is not hard and it is really hard to hurt the gun unless you are stupid and start the ball down the bore using a nail or some such object.

This will give you true bore diameter. I have seen some really corroded bores shoot just fine.

 

[MK20]

If you have any questions about this process, pm me and I will walk you through it step by step with whatever tools you have on hand.

We will get your gun shooting.

 

[Hairy Biker]

The first, and insanely biggest, problem is not using 311 projectiles. A No4 will hold a nice 4 inch group from prone sling at 100m using Sierra 174 grain SMK or Hornady (FB). ADI's 2209 with 44 grains gives a good load, although 2208 (Varget) is often preferred).

Using Sweets will cause more, not less, coppering. Use Butch's or Bore Tech and do not worry.

Get a nice single point sling set up, and hold tight on the centre of the seeing mass. And do not start trying to free float the barrel.

 

[ddavis]

Before doing anything else, get some Sierra 174 Matchkings and try a few loads. My No4 has printed a 1.5" 5 shot group at 100 yards, which is probably the limits of my use of iron sights more than the rifle. It does have a Parker Hale diopter rear sight which helps. I have the 174s loaded to around 2450.

Edit in case it wasn't clear, they are .310-.312 (cant remember right now, but they are made for Enfield, Mosin, etc., NOT 308.) I honestly wouldn't bother slugging bore until you've tried them. If anything it's going to need even larger diameter bullets.

 

[Danger Mouse]

If you can get privi partisan ammo its actually pretty good for 303, and the brass is worth reloading. When it was trying to get market share here it was a dollar a round. More expensive now but freely available here still. Dont know what your market is like.

For reloading I use ar2208 (varget).

Let us know how you get on, I'm quite interested

 

[Rookie]

My initial firings of this rifle were with PPU 303 British ammo. Accuracy was no better than 6 to 8 Moa and it was shooting considerably to the right of poi. Copper fouling was terrible.

I purchased dies to see if handloads would work any better but they didn't. I then went back to the Lyman 48th Edition reloading manual and started from scratch. The manual indicated significant differences in bore diameter. I measured my diameter at several points within the Barrel and the largest measurement that I got was 308 in. I loaded the 303 British cases with 308 bullets and accuracy immediately improved. Copper fouling was still terrible so that's when I got aggressive about cleaning. I also reviewed several YouTube videos and one indicated that the rifle is designed to have upward pressure from the Fore grip but no contact with the grip on the top or sides. That's when I discovered significant pressure from the left side of the grip at the muzzle. In fact the left side of the barrel had a bit finish worn off. Below is a picture. The contact seemed to be coming from the metal at the end of the top foregrip so I removed some metal from this area and reattached the grip. I will try to get out to the range tomorrow and see how it shoots and report back. Thanks again for everyone's help.

 

[Rookie]

With the rifling practically gone at the throat I don't expect fantastic accuracy but we will see.

 

[Dan M]

I’ll bet the rifle had a lot of cordite rounds through it.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Generally these Irish contract No4 MkIIs have seen little work. Can I ask, how do you know the throat is eroded?

The British experience is to swage bullets down during the barrel phase, so 311 or 312 bullets would be the go to option. I am not that fussed by the metal rub at this stage because the real damage to accuracy occurs at the action end. Australian Lithgows, for example, are built on coach wood which is easy to manufacture but fail due to recoil and oil seep. An easy first solution is to drown that area in superglue to bind the wood back together.

But that is the advanced stuff.

Do the range test, show us the groups, and any photos of the wear on the barrel.

 

[Rookie]

Quick update - I shot the Enfield this weekend and it still shoots like crap. 6 inches or so with 6 rounds.. Gonna get it to the gunsmith to have it slugged and crowned, then will try some Tubb final finish bullets. Nothing to lose at this point.

On a positive note, there was a father and son shooting an AR at the range. The 17yo asked about the Enfield so I let him put a dozen rounds downrange. He was super stoked so that was fun. My boys are grown and gone and I miss shooting with them.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Sad news indeed. Were the projectiles 311 or 312 diameter or did you persevere with the 308s?

Start looking for a new No4 barrel. Easy enough to change.

 

[eicas]

Interesting thread. I have a 1942 Faz that’s sat in the safe for years without much shooting due to similar issues. Took it out, adjusted the stock a bit, and will give it a go. I haven’t slugged mine, but not much remains visible if I insert a round into the muzzle. She’s had a tough life I think.

Where a good place to find a No4 barrel?

 

[Sooter76]

Where a good place to find a No4 barrel?

Criterion

 

[Rookie]

Here is a pic of 6 shots this weekend. 6 inch group about 10 inches left of POA .

 

[Rookie]

After 20 rounds through it was only lightly copper fouled and cleaned easily with sweets. Bullets were .308 cal.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Honestly, if you do not load up 20 rounds with 174 SMKs or Hornadys and 44 grains of H4350, then you will continue to get these results. This is a benchmark accuracy load.

Also, what shooting position did you use and how tight did you hold the rifle? The rifle works best in prone off a sandbag in a tight sling (use a Patt 07) at 100 yards.

 

[Rookie]

Sitting position, no sling, stock resting on a bag. And thanks for the load info I will try that.

 

[Hairy Biker]

First group at 50 yards using the long range (small) aperture then move back to 100. This distance change will also show up any eyesight problems you might not be aware of.

And grip it hard, hand on top of the bag to move any bounce.