Help.

[Wolf762x51]

So Ive been struggling through reloading for about 6 months now and it seems like Im getting nowhere. The recipes that give me acceptable numbers group like dogshit, most at 1-1.25-1.5". Ive tried a couple different powders and a bunch of different bullets but they all end up in the same irregular 1.5MOA pattern in the end. Am I missing something? Is there some big secret that everyone else seems to know? Heres my process:
Brass Prep:
All cases weigh sorted to within 1gr.
-FL Resized
-Trimmed to book length (2.005")
-Chamferred/deburred
-Flash holes deburred
-Primer pockets cleaned
-Necks brushed

Powder is trickled to within .1gr using beam scale
Bullets seated to mag length - 2.800".
RCBS dies and Hornady single stage press.

Using CCI #200 Primers, Federal GMM brass, tried various combos of Varget and IMR4064, 168 and 175gr SMKs, 175gr TMKs and 178gr ELDXs - all with the same end result.

Loads were found by doing a 10 round ladder test and looking for velocity nodes in .2gr increments. Once a node was found, then I did 3 more 5 round brackets to find the best combo. Best case was a ragged 1MOA group, sometimes a tight cluster of 3 and then random fliers 3" away from the main group. Also will sometimes get random velocity spikes in the middle of a group for no reason. All this is especially maddening because the same rifle will routinely throw 5 shots into .75" with Fed GMM factory ammo. The rifle is a Ruger Predator in .308 and a Caldwell crono for velocity measurements.

Any help you guys can offer would be awesome, because lately this has become a chore to the point where I just dont want to sit at the bench anymore and I really want to get to shooting and having fun again. Thanks!

 

[Kadams1563]

44 grains of Varget and a 175 SMK is like a .308 load that shoots in every rifle. I know TONS of people that just load to that and stop because it shoots so well. I want to say that 4064 is the same of 44 grains.

Are you using the factory stock on the RAP?

Also the Caldwell might not be the best for precision rifle loading. I have a optical chrono and now it just sets in the box due to me getting a Magneeto Speed. I know they are lots of money but I use mine almost every time I go to the range.

I would work on the 175 smk and the 178 eld. Those two bullets probably make up the most precision loads in .308.

 

[Milo 2.5]

One thing you failed to mention is playing with seat depth, buy a mag that will take longer OAL, alpha, arc, accurate, all make them.

 

[supercorndogs]

44 grains of Varget and a 175 SMK is like a .308 load that shoots in every rifle. I know TONS of people that just load to that and stop because it shoots so well. I want to say that 4064 is the same of 44 grains.

Are you using the factory stock on the RAP?

Also the Caldwell might not be the best for precision rifle loading. I have a optical chrono and now it just sets in the box due to me getting a Magneeto Speed. I know they are lots of money but I use mine almost every time I go to the range.

I would work on the 175 smk and the 178 eld. Those two bullets probably make up the most precision loads in .308.

Not every rifle, 44g of target and a 175 smk, will stick the bolt shut in Lapua brass in my .308.

Lots of unknown parameters here. One thing for sure though, I would not trust load development based off numbers taken by that chrono. There is a reason for spikes mid group, its because your chrono is not to be trusted. Go shoot a real ladder or an OCW. Find the node, do your length testing, and you will probably end up with something .75 moa-ish like the FGMM. FGMM is the standard for great factory ammo.

 

[Baddog0302]

Did I miss something ? I don't a weapon being listed. Bolt gun or AR, barrel length and OD ?

 

[TripleBull]

Did I miss something ? I don't a weapon being listed. Bolt gun or AR, barrel length and OD ?

From the OP: "The rifle is a Ruger Predator in .308"

 

[mdmp5]

A few things from my own personal experience:

When I started loading 308 almost 10 years ago, I started out with the 168 SMK. For me, it has been the most consistent bullet, even though I got tricked into buying a whole bunch of 155 palmas because of some random sick tight groups. I've never had luck with the 175s.

My first instinct was to inquire about your barrel, but you are saying that switching back to factory yields decent groups right? Hardware plays a very big part in precision; even more so than I previously believed after seeing some recent test results with something as small as a firing pin. Barrel, action, stock, bedding, trigger, bolt, pin, lock time, etc. If all your hardware is decent (as is your shooting ability), then of course the limiting factor is ammo. Just a little note from the other day: I shot some of that shit Russian wolf 223 thru my AR and it was like minute of barn door. Switched to some 69s over varget and it was sub MOA for a few groups.

I will tell you that FGMM brass is very soft, and doesn't have the best consistency. However, that doesn't account entirely for a 1.5" group.

Varget and 4064 are standard powders for the 308 indeed, but there are so many other ones that may yield different results. It's all rifle dependent, and unfortunately, cannot be predicted. I used to use RL15 with the 168. Then I went to H4895 with the 155s and never switched.

Many of the steps you are performing, while good, and I commend you for doing them, end up yielding severely diminishing returns. I handicap that over 90% of precision comes from quality component selection period. Until you sort that out, no extra loading step will fix groups.

One thing i didn't see you mention, and please correct me if it is somewhere buried in there, is your die type. Bushing or standard? Plus, are you using the expander ball? You can be imparting some serious runout and not know it.

Lastly, I want to remind you that you are loading 308; the dirtiest little whore of reloading. I've not had a challenge loading for any caliber like 308, and I've loaded a few. 300wm, 338lm, 223, etc, all cake comparatively. Talk to anyone who knows 308 and they will agree. Multiple rifles, different components, and it is a challenge. Doesn't mean it cannot be done, but the minute I ever settled on a load, I was searching for a better one the next session because of lack of repeatability. I've since moved on away from 308 into 6.5x47.

oh, seating depth plays a big part too. You are limiting yourself to 2.8 because of mag length. Try single feeding some 2.81, 2.82 and up.

 

[Wolf762x51]

A few things from my own personal experience:

When I started loading 308 almost 10 years ago, I started out with the 168 SMK. For me, it has been the most consistent bullet, even though I got tricked into buying a whole bunch of 155 palmas because of some random sick tight groups. I've never had luck with the 175s.

My first instinct was to inquire about your barrel, but you are saying that switching back to factory yields decent groups right? Hardware plays a very big part in precision; even more so than I previously believed after seeing some recent test results with something as small as a firing pin. Barrel, action, stock, bedding, trigger, bolt, pin, lock time, etc. If all your hardware is decent (as is your shooting ability), then of course the limiting factor is ammo. Just a little note from the other day: I shot some of that shit Russian wolf 223 thru my AR and it was like minute of barn door. Switched to some 69s over varget and it was sub MOA for a few groups.

I will tell you that FGMM brass is very soft, and doesn't have the best consistency. However, that doesn't account entirely for a 1.5" group.

Varget and 4064 are standard powders for the 308 indeed, but there are so many other ones that may yield different results. It's all rifle dependent, and unfortunately, cannot be predicted. I used to use RL15 with the 168. Then I went to H4895 with the 155s and never switched.

Many of the steps you are performing, while good, and I commend you for doing them, end up yielding severely diminishing returns. I handicap that over 90% of precision comes from quality component selection period. Until you sort that out, no extra loading step will fix groups.

One thing i didn't see you mention, and please correct me if it is somewhere buried in there, is your die type. Bushing or standard? Plus, are you using the expander ball? You can be imparting some serious runout and not know it.

Lastly, I want to remind you that you are loading 308; the dirtiest little whore of reloading. I've not had a challenge loading for any caliber like 308, and I've loaded a few. 300wm, 338lm, 223, etc, all cake comparatively. Talk to anyone who knows 308 and they will agree. Multiple rifles, different components, and it is a challenge. Doesn't mean it cannot be done, but the minute I ever settled on a load, I was searching for a better one the next session because of lack of repeatability. I've since moved on away from 308 into 6.5x47.

oh, seating depth plays a big part too. You are limiting yourself to 2.8 because of mag length. Try single feeding some 2.81, 2.82 and up.

Ill try to clarify a few more things for ya. As far as the barrel is concerned - its bone stock minus the SureFire brake. The stock is factory as well, but Ive added a kydex cheekpiece and filled the rear portion with fiberglass to help manage recoil so i can spot my shots. As far as the dies go, they are just standard RCBS FL and neck sizing dies. I tried neck sizing but the rounds would bind and the bullets would have a scuff around their ogive, which led me to believe that the rifle may have a crooked chamber.

 

[Wayne McNeely]

A few things from my own personal experience:

When I started loading 308 almost 10 years ago, I started out with the 168 SMK. For me, it has been the most consistent bullet, even though I got tricked into buying a whole bunch of 155 palmas because of some random sick tight groups. I've never had luck with the 175s.

My first instinct was to inquire about your barrel, but you are saying that switching back to factory yields decent groups right? Hardware plays a very big part in precision; even more so than I previously believed after seeing some recent test results with something as small as a firing pin. Barrel, action, stock, bedding, trigger, bolt, pin, lock time, etc. If all your hardware is decent (as is your shooting ability), then of course the limiting factor is ammo. Just a little note from the other day: I shot some of that shit Russian wolf 223 thru my AR and it was like minute of barn door. Switched to some 69s over varget and it was sub MOA for a few groups.

I will tell you that FGMM brass is very soft, and doesn't have the best consistency. However, that doesn't account entirely for a 1.5" group.

Varget and 4064 are standard powders for the 308 indeed, but there are so many other ones that may yield different results. It's all rifle dependent, and unfortunately, cannot be predicted. I used to use RL15 with the 168. Then I went to H4895 with the 155s and never switched.

Many of the steps you are performing, while good, and I commend you for doing them, end up yielding severely diminishing returns. I handicap that over 90% of precision comes from quality component selection period. Until you sort that out, no extra loading step will fix groups.

One thing i didn't see you mention, and please correct me if it is somewhere buried in there, is your die type. Bushing or standard? Plus, are you using the expander ball? You can be imparting some serious runout and not know it.

Lastly, I want to remind you that you are loading 308; the dirtiest little whore of reloading. I've not had a challenge loading for any caliber like 308, and I've loaded a few. 300wm, 338lm, 223, etc, all cake comparatively. Talk to anyone who knows 308 and they will agree. Multiple rifles, different components, and it is a challenge. Doesn't mean it cannot be done, but the minute I ever settled on a load, I was searching for a better one the next session because of lack of repeatability. I've since moved on away from 308 into 6.5x47.

oh, seating depth plays a big part too. You are limiting yourself to 2.8 because of mag length. Try single feeding some 2.81, 2.82 and up.

A very good, concise post. And perhaps as good advice as I've seen given on this subject.

I'd like to re-iterate, that nothing gets better if the barrel, action, stock, trigger, scope, SHOOTER... are not up to it. I'm not trying to be mean, but this is a stock rifle and they can be very finicky about what they shoot well, then add the configuration of the stock and it could be that your struggling to maintain a consistent grip on it. I have a Predator, or should I say I bought my son one in 6.5 Creedmoore. When working up loads for this rifle, I found it hard to be consistent with that stock. 3/4" at 100 yards was about all I could get from it, and was amazed that Hornady factory ammo would do as well as my best hand loads.
Reloading, as a whole, is fairly simple until you decide to reload for accuracy. Then the whole game changes! Every piece of equipment, and every component is suspect until proven good. And while within cartridges there are certain commonalities, at the end of the day, every rifle is different and is a law unto itself.
If your truly wanting to chase after this accuracy thing, then I would suddgest a good set of Redding full length bushing and competition seater dies. They'll go a long way toward getting you where your wanting to go. After that, a simple ladder test with known .308 powders and bullets will be of great help. But, a little help from someone who's been there can really shorten the curve.

Wayne

 

[Wolf762x51]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply to my thread, I know its been a little while. Ill revisit this again this winter, hopefully with the Ruger in a Magpul stock w/mags that will permit me to load longer, Lapua brass, and a magnetospeed. Wish me luck lol and thanks again everyone.

 

[918v]

One thing you failed to mention is playing with seat depth, buy a mag that will take longer OAL, alpha, arc, accurate, all make them.

Yes, what he said.

168SMK tend to like 2.800" but 175SMK often like to be loaded longer.

 

[Wolf762x51]

Finally! Ive managed to find Lapua brass and now I have all my stuff sitting at home, ready to go:
CCI BR2s
Lapua .308 win brass
2 boxes 175gr SMKs.
Reloader 15? (Tried Varget and 4064 with mediocre results)
So my next question is whats the best load development process for someone that cant trust a crono? My mags also only allow a max OAL of 2.815.

 

[spife7980]

So my next question is whats the best load development process for someone that cant trust a crono? My mags also only allow a max OAL of 2.815.

This is the best way IMO.
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
load them at mag length to start and go from there

Or you could run a ladder test, since this is your first time with any of these components that might not be a bad idea as you only load up one of each charge. It would allow you to do a pressure test without making a bunch of rounds that you might then have to subsequently pull if they turn out to be too hot. http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

There's all sorts of way, the important one is that in your testing you keep everything constant except for the one variable you are testing for.

 

[padom]

Lapua brass, IMR4064 and 175smk and 178 Amax (now 178 ELD-M) shot lights out in my factory 700 5R. Second best powder was H4895. 175smk did not like to be loaded long. Right around 2.805-2.81 was optimal seating depth for the 175smk which was a huge jump in my factory 5R chamber. 178 Amax was a whole different story liking to be loaded long at 2.885 barely fitting in my AICS mags.

I would suggest you shoot an OCW test at 100yds with the Lapua brass, 4064 and 175smk from 41.4 - 42.6 in 0.2g increments loaded to 2.800. If none of those charges group decently you have a different issue going on. Havent seen a factory rifle not shoot with a charge in the above noted range with the above noted components.

Here was my OCW target with the combo but 1xFC brass.



[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/rCUNWdI.jpg"}[/IMG2]


Here's some load confirmation groups after my load workup.


[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/alTQwe2.jpg"}[/IMG2]



Here's my seating depth test with 178 Amax in Lapua brass with 4064.

 

[Wolf762x51]

Hey guys, should the ladder test be one, 12 shot group all at once or 12 cold bore shots? I ask because my barrel isnt the heaviest and I dont know if doing it all at once will heat the barrel and make me throw shots.

 

[spife7980]

Shoot three foulers to get it warm and then shoot them leaving 4 minutes between each shot so it stays warm but doesn’t get scorching hot. That should give you time to walk down range and mark each shot.

 

[Wolf762x51]

The fuck am I looking at?

 

[spife7980]

What I see if that 42.9, 43.2 & 43.5 are all about the same elevation so I would say that’s the region you would want to be looking into further. How far was this shot at? I’m guessing only 300 which would explain why they are still so close to one another.

 

[Wolf762x51]

Am I supposed to be looking at elevation or a small group?

 

[Wolf762x51]

@ 200 yds.

 

[spife7980]

With a ladder what you’re looking for is shots of a close powder charge range all having similar point of impact with regard to elevations. Because you shoot it over numerous hundreds of yards you don’t pay much attention to the horizontal as that’s wind or something that can be dialed out with seating depth later. You just want them elevations the same.

The theory is is that you want to time the barrel vibrations so as the barrel whips up and down that the slow bullets are coming out as the barrel approaches the peak of its wave getting thrown up and the fast ones are coming out as it begins going down from the peak. That way they all reconvine at a similar point down range. The further you go the more the effect comes into play. 200 is too close really for it to work properly.
http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html


Load up an ocw of 42.6-43.6 in .2 gr increments. http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

 

[Sendit6.5]

Good luck! I’ll be curious to see how this turns out for you. The OCW and ladder tests Spife7980 referred to are great methods and I second his suggestion to use a longer range than 200 if you can. Although, I do quite a bit of load development at 200 simply because I have a 200yd range about 10yds from my reloading bench. Lol. It works for initial development, for me. I’d get yourself a MagneetoSpeed chrome while all the holiday sales are on, if you can swing it. It’s made my life a lot easier than my old Chrony optical chronograph. It’s very consistent in all weather and lighting and when I get a velocity spike, I know where NOT to look - my chronograph! Lol. I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that the velocity spikes you were seeing were related to your chronograph unless you accidentally loaded a round differently. I would find it very difficult to shoot with out accurate velocity data, at least on my final loads. I depend on my ballistic calculator to deliver 1st round hits since I’m a hunter, first and foremost. Without that velocity data I’d have to go out and shoot every distance out to 700yds (or more) in 50yd increments to come up with a decent dope card. Heck, that’d cost almost as much as buying a MS.


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