Rifle Scopes Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

S

SCL

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Minuteman
Oct 26, 2003
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#1
Gents,
Which of these scopes would you go with on a .408CT or similar very long range rifle? Price/weight differences do not matter. I am used to FFP scopes and the Hensoldts are second plane...would that make a difference to you when you get a larger objective for more light gathering? I am leaning towards not really caring since this rifle will not/not be used to engage multiple targets at varying ranges in a tight timeframe. I will use a LRF for primary distance measurements and use the scope reticle as a sanity check.

IIRC S&B has more elevation than the Hensoldt - S&B says it gives true 2K meter capability - does the Hensoldt?

Thanks!

SCL
 
#2
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

From my understanding Hensoldt has ever so slightly higher quality glass with it being Zeiss and all and S&B is ever so slightly more durable. Can't go wrong with either, really. Not sure about your technical questions, someone here will know though.

 
#3
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

The focal plane issue may be somewhat less important if you're shooting ELR ranges. The main issue I considered when picking out a scope for my .408 Windrunner was elevation range and optical clarity. Honestly, I think you would be just fine with either choice as well as USO.
 
#4
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charlie_Foxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my understanding Hensoldt has ever so slightly higher quality glass with it being Zeiss and all and S&B is ever so slightly more durable. Can't go wrong with either, really. Not sure about your technical questions, someone here will know though.

</div></div>


More durable huh? And where did you here that from?
 
#5
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

lowlight has a write up on the hensoldt. not in the magnification you are talking about but in a 4x12 I think. there is also a write up on sniper central on both of the ones you talk about in different magnification. I think I would be happy with either one but have been leaning on getting the hensoldt or the zeiss in the same magnification you are looking for. Hudisco is going to be supplying them now. There are dealers avail right now.
 
#6
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

3-12x56, and its impressive to say the least, I passed it around at the Cup and everybody said the same thing, WOW. I think the -24 is SFP, the 72mm bell is bright, and it ranged at 12x.
 
#7
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheArcangel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charlie_Foxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my understanding Hensoldt has ever so slightly higher quality glass with it being Zeiss and all and S&B is ever so slightly more durable. Can't go wrong with either, really. Not sure about your technical questions, someone here will know though.

</div></div>


More durable huh? And where did you here that from?</div></div>

Mark at Finnaccuracy.com informed me when I was looking at these scopes that he had several problems with several Hensoldt scopes getting dirt in the housing, and one that had a knob problem of some kind. Like I said, the difference is ever so slight, as they were not serious problems, as I understood it. And Hensoldt fixed the scopes promptly.
 
#8
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charlie_Foxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my understanding Hensoldt has ever so slightly higher quality glass with it being Zeiss...</div></div>
a picture (two pics) says more than 1000 words...

taube.jpg


both pics are parallax-free and reticles are set sharp...
the 6-24x72 Zeiss (Optronics/SportOptics doesn't matter) is on the right...
on the left is NOT a S&B 5-25x56...
 
#11
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charlie_Foxtrot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my understanding Hensoldt has ever so slightly higher quality glass with it being Zeiss...</div></div>
a picture (two pics) says more than 1000 words...

taube.jpg


both pics are parallax-free and reticles are set sharp...
the 6-24x72 Zeiss (Optronics/SportOptics doesn't matter) is on the right...
on the left is NOT a S&B 5-25x56...
</div></div>


6-24x<span style="font-weight: bold">72</span> vs <span style="text-decoration: underline">x56</span>
 
#12
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6-24x<span style="font-weight: bold">72</span> vs <span style="text-decoration: underline">x56</span> </div></div>
if you think the downsized 72er... aka the 6-24x56... is any better... good luck...
 
#17
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

SCL - Personally, of the two scopes you mentioned, I would go with the 5-25x S&B. I love Hensoldt and have a couple Hensoldt 3-12x56mm scopes, as well as a S&B 5-25x56mm PMII. The S&B has a lot more up elevation, which you will need for ELR. Someone was trying to sell a 6-24x56mm Hensoldt on SH a few months ago and the images he posted suggested that particular model Hensoldt did not have numerical markings on the windage turrent - only lines. If true, it would be another reason to go with the S&B.

Nevertheless, if you are willing to look at other scopes, I would wait for the Premier that will be available in a few months.
 
#18
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

Which raises another question - *if* that isn't an S&B on the left and *if* that were a Premiere, is it a 25x or is scope on the right set somewhere around 15x for the purposes of the pic?
 
#19
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

I have owned both the Zeiss 72mm and the S&B 56mm , I sold the Zeiss and got another S&B. The 72mm had to be mounted so high on the rifle that I could never get comfortable behind the scope. And belive it or not the S&B was the clearer of the two.
 
#21
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

This is the second time I have seen this question posted. First, thanks for the interest!

Optically it really is not a fair comparison since the Hensoldt has a 72mm fluorite crystal objective lens, but since photos have been posted I think it is time to do a direct side by side comparison.

Although the photographs are very convincing,
confused.gif
(I'm sure they are from an unbiased source) I think the best way to settle this would be to have an evaluation conducted by an objective reviewer.

Maybe Lowlight and some of the other fellows at rifles only would be interested? I will see if I can have it arranged.

The truth does not fear investigation!
 
#22
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

About the only thing that is clear is that the pic on the right is brighter! Being out of focus isn't necessarily related to the equipment! Maybe just a slight oversight in the part of the operator; conveniently located in Germany!
grin.gif
 
#23
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

I think unless someone has the "stones" to come out and show their face and who they may work for they should be prepared to see the shortcomings of their product splayed all over this site. If you want to boast about your own stuff do it in your own thread or perhaps one that mentions your brand!
 
#24
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

I dont have a dog in this fight but I do own both of these scopes.The S&B is a great scope with alot of travel and I think its a better fit for most people.With that being said Hensoldts are my favorite scopes. I really like the SSG-P and the 6x24x72.They both mount high and most have a problem with that but with a adj.cheek piece problem solved.I have found that in bright sunlight the 72mm will wash out and the image is not as sharp as my S&B (WITH MY EYES)but when the light fades the 72mm comes alive.I really like how easy the Hensoldts are to look through I call it WOW factor.For a true long range hunting scope that is Great in low light the 6x24x72 is my favorite.When you are talking about the top scopes I dont know if there is a best scope in my mind, only the best scope for your application
 
#25
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

From Lowlight talking about the Hensoldt and the S&B

"The clarity is a tick above the S&B, it looks better because the sight picture is a bit easier and more forgiving. I think that 56mm objective coupled with the size, which is short being a 3-12X helps it have a very nice picture. It's close to S&B, but its definitely noticeable coming to it for the first time, it has a wow factor with regards to the glass."

Of course these are 2 diff magnifcations of scopes but so are the 2 scopes in question
 
#26
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which raises another question - *if* that isn't an S&B on the left and *if* that were a Premiere, is it a 25x or is scope on the right set somewhere around 15x for the purposes of the pic? </div></div>
as I said it is NOT a S&B... but it is 5-25x56...
and ofcourse it is set too 25x... the Zeiss is set to 24x...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I take it the bird is dead?</div></div>
nope... no hunting season... and there is a town in range of the .338LM...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HuDisCo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(I'm sure they are from an unbiased source)</div></div>
can't help you with that decision... atleast I am a source that was able to compare... how believeable I am is up to you...
you could ofcourse come here and take a look for yourself...


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">conveniently located in Germany!</div></div>
from where the best beer and best scopes come...
grin.gif

your a invited too...

can't help it... I had the opportunity to compare my Zeiss vs the PRs under real life conditions (atleast whats real life/important for my hunting in germany)...
as said the 72er is best on high magnifiction in low light... thats it... thats what I got it for...

if you don't trust me... well the test was for myself and a few interested people...
just thought I could share...
blush.gif
 
#27
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

The zeiss 72mm I had did not have the FL coating , it was not available at the time I bought the scope.

HDC if you have the Hensoldt 72mm with fluorite crystal objective lens send me a PM of cost and availablity as I would like to try out.

Bottom line is if your eyes are 40yrs old or older you will probably notice a difference the last 5 mins of shooting light before you power up the Raptor.
 
#28
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

SS, Ca in one and not the other- so what, don't usually do much birdwatching or chasing raptors with that sort of scope anyway. As far as beer and scopes go, fine, u can have that one, well scopes anyway. We are to busy being the Alpha-best-top(take your pic)country in the world, u know, the one every else on the planet wants to be like. Back to your pics though, there is a big difference there, whats the other scope because apparently I need to sell a Zeiss or 2 lol.
 
#29
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

SheepShooter, Since you are in a position to evaluate preproduction model scopes, send one so we can compare as well. I am certain that LL and RO will be up to the task of a proper and fair comparison and evaluation.

"the 6-24x72 Zeiss (Optronics/SportOptics doesn't matter) is on the right..." In light of this comment and the reticle that is in your scope. It is obvious that you are not "a source that was able to compare". That is in no way a Hensoldt. There are differences.

If what you are proposing is true then it will be painfully obvious to everyone in a side by side comparison.
 
#30
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CHEYTAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The zeiss 72mm I had did not have the FL coating , it was not available at the time I bought the scope.

HDC if you have the Hensoldt 72mm with fluorite crystal objective lens send me a PM of cost and availablity as I would like to try out.

Bottom line is if your eyes are 40yrs old or older you will probably notice a difference the last 5 mins of shooting light before you power up the Raptor. </div></div>

PM sent.
 
#31
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HuDisCo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"the 6-24x72 Zeiss (Optronics/SportOptics doesn't matter) is on the right..." In light of this comment and the reticle that is in your scope. It is obvious that you are not "a source that was able to compare". That is in no way a Hensoldt. There are differences.

If what you are proposing is true then it will be painfully obvious to everyone in a side by side comparison.</div></div>
Zeiss Optronics
Zeiss Sport Optics

as for the differences between a Optronics and a SportOptics 72er...
- the Sportoptics can not only be ordered in Absehen 63, but also in Absehen 43 (as seen in pic) and Absehen 40...
- the illumination unit of the Optronics is programmed in that way that you do not need to pull it out to turn it on...
- the SportOptics comes with 0.5cm clicks...

apart from that it falls out of the same assembly line and therefore have the same optical capabilities...

if you want to play silly games ok...
it was ofcourse not a 6-24x72 Hendsoldt, because there is no 6-24x72 Hendsoldt... there is only a 6-24x72 Optronics...

anyway... here is a pic of the test-setup...
geraffel.jpg


and it still makes no difference... I compared for myself, I tested for myself, I came to conclusions for myself...

and I shared them with you, to help with your own conclusions... purpose of this forum...
 
#33
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

SS,what is your affiliation w/ Premier? I urge you to think carefully before you answer! What is the reason once again you are trying to interject a brand that is not mentioned here? I could put a picture of a Ferrari Enzo on here, would that impress you? Would you think it is even mine? Would you think I knew what I was talking about? BTW happy Easter!
 
#35
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ghilliedup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Erm, I'm pretty sure there is a 6-24x72, found it on a German site:
http://www.i-e-a.de/productssimple12.html

It says Hensoldt on the scope...
</div></div>

Correct, of course. I'm not sure whether that scope is still available as a Hensoldt because it was also sold as a Zeiss at the same time.

Regarding the two images, the one on the right exhibits a strong bluish tint, appears brighter in the center, but may have some vingetting since the background illumination is uneven across the image and darkens at the edge.

The only other "5-25x56mm" scope I am aware of is the USO, IIRC, but there is none in the image of SheepShooter's equipment.
 
#36
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

I'll tell you straight up where to find the biggest difference in this scope over the others mentioned is at ocular.

Take any one of the scopes mentioned, I don't care which one, even off a rifle, find the sweet spot for the eye relief then move your head a bit and look at the sight picture. See where the shadows are, how the shadows appear and then look at the Hensoldt, it'll beat the others hands down.

Someone at the Sniper's Hide Cup who looked at the Hensoldt(s) on hand asked me how come I didn't really press the issue of the glass et al of the Zeiss and I told them straight up, nobody would believe me and think I was simply sucking dick... they're on here, ask them, those were my words.
 
#39
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

Wow, I must say that I have not really seen someone go so far out of their way to slander a product here on the Hide.

It is always nice to be working with accurate information. It is much easier to defend.

Let me take a second to address some of the items from your most recent post:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as for the differences between a Optronics and a SportOptics 72er...
- the Sportoptics can not only be ordered in Absehen 63, but also in Absehen 43 (as seen in pic) and Absehen 40...</div></div>

We offer one reticle. It is a skeletonized mil-dot with 1 meter ranging brackets across the bottom. The numbers are irrelevant. This is also what immediately gave your picture away as something other than a Hensoldt.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- the illumination unit of the Optronics is programmed in that way that you do not need to pull it out to turn it on...</div></div>

The sport optics scope uses a simple push/pull type illumination system. This system was done away with in the Hensoldt scopes after it was noticed that internal pressure differential could activate the illumination during high altitude situations such as flying in non-pressurized aircraft. The new system uses a microprocessor to eliminate the “pull” portion of the system that would activate inadvertently. It also allows for a 3 hour automatic shutoff and a return to last setting feature.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- the SportOptics comes with 0.5cm clicks...</div></div>

I must assume this is accurate, I have not spent much time around the Sport Optics scope, but I do know that the updated version has locking turrets that are more friendly to hunters. This also tells me that your scope is at least a few years old as these new turrets have been around a while.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">apart from that it falls out of the same assembly line and therefore have the same optical capabilities...</div></div>

Both scopes are built at the facility in Wetzler where optics have been produced for over 160 years. While they are produced side by side, they are produced to different specifications. The optical capabilities are not identical on production model scopes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you want to play silly games ok...
it was ofcourse not a 6-24x72 Hendsoldt, because there is no 6-24x72 Hendsoldt... there is only a 6-24x72 Optronics...</div></div>

This just isn’t true. All of my 6-24x72’s bear the Hensoldt name on the top and the Zeiss logo on the bottom. There is no blue logo as is plainly seen on your scope. The black logo is used on all military specification items.

I don’t understand why you would assume that I knew so little about my scopes.

Give me a few minutes and I will put together a brief technical piece that will show why I am so confident and eager to arrange an unbiased side by side comparison.

Thanks for reading!

Nathan Hunt
 
#40
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

From Wikipedia:

Fluorite:
<span style="font-style: italic">Fluorite (also called fluorspar) is a mineral composed of calcium fluoride, CaF2. It is an isometric mineral with a cubic habit, though octahedral and more complex isometric forms are not uncommon. Cubic crystals up to 20 cm across have been found at Dalnegorsk, Russia.[1] Crystal twinning is common and adds complexity to the observed crystal habits.
The word fluorite is derived from the Latin root fluo, meaning "to flow" because the mineral has a relatively low melting point and was used as an important flux in smelting. Fluorite gave its name to its constitutive element fluorine.

Lenses:
Fluorite is used instead of glass in some high performance telescopes and camera lens elements. Exposure tools for the semiconductor industry make use of fluorite optical elements for ultraviolet light at 157 nm wavelength. Fluorite has a uniquely high transparency at this wavelength. Fluorite has a very low dispersion so lenses made from it exhibit less chromatic aberration than those made of ordinary glass. In telescopes it allows crisp images of astronomical objects even at high power. Fluorite also has ornamental and lapidary uses…
Fluorite objective lenses are manufactured by the larger microscope firms due to their strong hexagonal crystal structure most notable for evenly refracting light. Their transparence to ultraviolet light enables them to be used for fluorescence microscopy. The fluorite also serves to correct optical aberrations in these lenses.</span>

More to follow!
 
#41
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

Diffraction Limit
<span style="font-style: italic">The resolution of an optical imaging system like a microscope or telescope or camera can be limited by multiple factors like imperfections in the lenses or misalignment. There is however a fundamental maximum to the resolution of any optical system which is due to diffraction. An optical system with the ability to produce images with angular resolution as good as the instrument's theoretical limit is said to be diffraction limited.[1]

The resolution of a given instrument is proportional to the size of its objective, and inversely proportional to the wavelength of the light being observed. For telescope with circular apertures, the size of the smallest feature in an image that is diffraction limited is the size of the Airy disc.</span>

Dawes Limit:
<span style="font-style: italic">Dawes' limit is a formula to express the maximum resolving power of a microscope or telescope. It is so named for its discoverer, W. R. Dawes, although it is also credited to Lord Rayleigh.
The formula takes different forms depending on the units.
R = 4.56/D D in inches, R in arcseconds
R = 11.6/D D in centimeters, R in arcseconds</span>

"It just does" doesn't cut it here anymore.

Nathan
 
#42
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HuDisCo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master Diver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone know how much MOA elevation the 6-24x72 scope has?
If it is for a 408 that also plays a part.

Cheers,

Master Diver </div></div>

20 mils. More specs here: http://hudisco.com/6_24.htm </div></div>

Thanks,

NOT enough for full potential of the 408 CheyTac ot 375/408!!!
crazy.gif


Cheers,

Master Diver
 
#43
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

It depends on your zero point. Not too many Chey-Tacs are used for shooting at 100 yds for groups. According to Exbal, given a BC of .874 and a MV of 2900 and standard environmentals, 20 mils with the proper base will get you from 200 to 2000 yards.

I have no practical experience with this cartridge so my numbers could be off a little, but it should be a fair estimation of the capabilities.

Nathan
 
#45
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

Lowlight is right on with the sweetspot though. The 5x25(SB) at 5 is like looking through a tunnel and it gradually opeans up until u reach 8.5x or 9x where its sweetspot is, and its fine from there. The Zeiss is fine everywhere, at 6x its good but u reach the maximum sweet spot(larger fov btw) at as little as 6.5x to 7x. Its an awsome peice of glass. as far as glass quality between the 2 not a lot of differecce IMO other than the glare on the Schmidt at power. Every one I have ever had has this.
 
#46
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

I'd go with the SuB. Better turrets and reticles. Better as in suits me better, your preference might differ from mine.

I have compared the civ zeiss 6-24 56 with the 5-25 and besides the tunnel vision at low mag, the difference wasn't big optically.
 
#49
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"My USO's are worth every penny I spent on them - I will not buy another scope, other than Aimpoints for CQB."

SCL

That's the thing about diplomats. You simply cannot trust them... </div></div>

41,
Have no fear, I still have USOs on all of my personal kit.
smile.gif
Maybe if these Euro scopes are amazingly better, I may opt to get rid of my personal USOs and switch to European glass. We'll see what happens - I don't drink any brand kool aid exclusively and have an open mind that a better mousetrap may always come along - that is one of the greatest strengths of Capitalism.

That better mousetrap will probably happen in the next few years as electronics get smaller and someone will build a truly portable scope integrated with your ballistic data and rangefinding. Add a few more years to that and it will be a day/night optic with either NVG or thermal with rangefinding, ballistic compesation, and weather imput all in one unit that is the size of current day optics. It will be God-awful expensive but amazingly cool.
smile.gif


I don't have any experience with the new Hensoldt gear, and my S&B has primarily been limited to trigger time running short dots - which are great scopes but a bit heavy for my liking on a short barrel gun. I shot a 10X fixed S&B on a colleagues AI years ago and it was a very nice scope -although limited with fixed magnification. I did some work-related T&E comparisons with the S&B and other makers a few years back and personally went with USO. It will be interesting to see how things have changed and improved in the past few years.

SCL
 
#50
Re: Hensoldt 6-24 vs. S&B PMII 5-25X56

The short dot on short guns is not popular with most diplomats. Clarificacion. Gracias. With all the current emphasis on taxing those that bank offshore, I watch daily for full disclosure from that Bremer guy.

The range finding needs to come first in the better mousetrap. All else then falls in place.
 
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