Before my last match, i checked my bubble level with a plumb line and everything was good. During the match, i noticed my reticle looked crooked when the bubble was level. A few shots after noticing how crooked it looked, i started to ignore the level and shot where the reticle looked correct. Got home, checked the level again to the same plumb line, it was off quite a bit. I took the bubble off and threw it into a drawer. im done with bubble levels. I have 0 idea how it got canted between pre-match and during match but i know the damn thing was tightened onto the main tube and i didnt hit it on anything during the match. I can't help but wonder if i got a couple misses due to cant thinking it was wind before i decided to ignore it.
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Advanced Marksmanship Heresy! Todd Hodnett says bubble level is essential!
- Thread starter Racer88
- Start date
somebody on the FN forums just took a LR class in Utah and was told the same thing - level is essential.
i don't have one, but if i was more serious, using a ballhead, and really had to hit multiple targets really far out there, i would want one.
it isn't like i haven't wasted money before.
i don't have one, but if i was more serious, using a ballhead, and really had to hit multiple targets really far out there, i would want one.
it isn't like i haven't wasted money before.
somebody on the FN forums just took a LR class in Utah and was told the same thing - level is essential.
i don't have one, but if i was more serious, using a ballhead, and really had to hit multiple targets really far out there, i would want one.
it isn't like i haven't wasted money before.
Just gets tossed around as generic rubbish. What they should be saying is “being level is essential.”
And then go on to talking about how to achieve said level. Some people have physical impairments that may actually require a physical level. Most do not, or at least won’t be shooting far enough to matter.
The funny part of this,
during the fundamental evaluation Iwrote down the scope was canted. The student pushed back because the “level” was observed as being correct. I relented because the thought was, maybe I saw one shot where it was, plus I can’t see what you do, and he was not a brand new shooter. But a debated happened over my call in the Evaluation.
fast forward when I got on the rifle Ignored any level and confirmed the cant.
you all are wasting your money.
I am calibrated you’re not. You’re just being fed lies and eating it up.
during the fundamental evaluation Iwrote down the scope was canted. The student pushed back because the “level” was observed as being correct. I relented because the thought was, maybe I saw one shot where it was, plus I can’t see what you do, and he was not a brand new shooter. But a debated happened over my call in the Evaluation.
fast forward when I got on the rifle Ignored any level and confirmed the cant.
you all are wasting your money.
I am calibrated you’re not. You’re just being fed lies and eating it up.
But, he also recommends a $9,000 rangefinder, sooo.....
I don't see where it says he recommends the a $9,000 rangefinder, he was asked what range finder he uses and he said PLRF25C and 05
Which range finder do you use?
TH: I use the PLRF 25C and the 05. I've got other ones, but primarily, I use those.
Agree 100%
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I don't care if anyone uses a level or not.... but I think some things are being missed here.
1) The pic of all the levels reading different-- Yes, cheap levels read different- but if you use a level that goes around the scope tube then it doesn't matter. Get the gun set up so it feels good (without worrying about leveling it), then level the scope with a plumb line. And now attach the scope mounted level while you are still verifying with the plumb line. You're done... it doesn't matter if they had tolerance issues in the manufacturing process.
2) People see shooters with levels shooting and they are still canted. Yeah- I have a speedometer in my car but I still get speeding tickets.... Only works if you use it. And it's not as if you remove it then you will suddenly be holding the rifle truer.... you just wont have a indicator that you are doing it wrong. Kind of like pulling the fuse because you are tired of seeing the "check engine" gauge..... problem didn't go away.
3) Those that had one break so they will never use it again. Shit breaks, I've had lots of stuff fail (rings, scopes, bipods, rangefinders) but it doesn't mean the concept it bad.
I think that they can be a band aid, and people going back and forth between the level and the scope is a problem. But they can train you.... When I go to a new spot I will glance at the level before my first shot- make sure I have the lay of the land correct- and then I don't have to use it again (unless something about the terrain was throwing me off and I wasn't holding true the first time I checked it)
**) I do not sell levels... and am not trying to justify a purchase. I've made enough bad purchases that a couple $30 to $40 levels aren't even on the radar.
1) The pic of all the levels reading different-- Yes, cheap levels read different- but if you use a level that goes around the scope tube then it doesn't matter. Get the gun set up so it feels good (without worrying about leveling it), then level the scope with a plumb line. And now attach the scope mounted level while you are still verifying with the plumb line. You're done... it doesn't matter if they had tolerance issues in the manufacturing process.
2) People see shooters with levels shooting and they are still canted. Yeah- I have a speedometer in my car but I still get speeding tickets.... Only works if you use it. And it's not as if you remove it then you will suddenly be holding the rifle truer.... you just wont have a indicator that you are doing it wrong. Kind of like pulling the fuse because you are tired of seeing the "check engine" gauge..... problem didn't go away.
3) Those that had one break so they will never use it again. Shit breaks, I've had lots of stuff fail (rings, scopes, bipods, rangefinders) but it doesn't mean the concept it bad.
I think that they can be a band aid, and people going back and forth between the level and the scope is a problem. But they can train you.... When I go to a new spot I will glance at the level before my first shot- make sure I have the lay of the land correct- and then I don't have to use it again (unless something about the terrain was throwing me off and I wasn't holding true the first time I checked it)
**) I do not sell levels... and am not trying to justify a purchase. I've made enough bad purchases that a couple $30 to $40 levels aren't even on the radar.
What you’re missing is that a $30-$40 level isn’t reliable. It’s slow and they wander over time. It’s to be expected of a $40 piece of plastic. Tolerances aren’t going to do well. Even scope mounted.
I have verified them with electronic and more expensive spirit levels. They are dead on one day and then the next they don’t work. And you don’t know when they are going to fail.
Use a level all you want. But using a $2 level marked up to $40 isn’t the way to go.
Well, I have no idea about your experiences with them.... all I can go off of is what has happened to me- and I haven't had the issues that you have. A level isn't a complicated thing- a plastic tube (I'd have to check but I believe mine are glass tubes) with a slight concave for the bubble to sit between the lines when level. I know that they are not all created equal and how fast and accurate they settle depends on what they are filled with... usually alcohol (spirits). If I have one fail on me for no reason then I will definitely be willing to change my opinion.
As it stands- I have one that has been on the same scope and the rifle is going on its third barrel (approx 3800 rounds). Out of curiosity I checked it again and when I level the reticle on a plum line and then check the level it is reading dead on.
One day it may fail.... just like everything else on the gun. One day my scope might not dial what I tell it... but until then I guess I'll just keep using it.
Either way- not worth arguing about. My view is shaped by my results- and yours by what you've seen.
As it stands- I have one that has been on the same scope and the rifle is going on its third barrel (approx 3800 rounds). Out of curiosity I checked it again and when I level the reticle on a plum line and then check the level it is reading dead on.
One day it may fail.... just like everything else on the gun. One day my scope might not dial what I tell it... but until then I guess I'll just keep using it.
Either way- not worth arguing about. My view is shaped by my results- and yours by what you've seen.
So he said this is the "most important" piece of gear related to long range?
Uh, cosine indicator maybe?
Uh, cosine indicator maybe?
I would submit a better bipod that locks out the can’t is more important than a level.
I can straighten a rifle by standing over it prior to shooting, (for me I can do it from behind) then lock out the movement so the rifle cannot be canted without force. Most use a loose bipod and then push the rifle over and pull it with the bolt.
Todd is not an instructor he doesn’t teach marksmanship, he shows you How to use a reticle. And sells a level so he shows you how to use it, incorrectly I might add. He is a salesman that instructs on the tools he sells. he works with things like the kestrel that are not marksmanship related. You can have the best data, but if you can’t shoot what good do they do?
his only formal training if you want to call it that was one week of private instruction at rifles only with jacob, a course I taught for 7 years, plus my military schooling, widgets are a thing, using it wrong is real.
I was there day one he showed up on the scene, as a cowboy action shooter not a precision rifle one.
I can straighten a rifle by standing over it prior to shooting, (for me I can do it from behind) then lock out the movement so the rifle cannot be canted without force. Most use a loose bipod and then push the rifle over and pull it with the bolt.
Todd is not an instructor he doesn’t teach marksmanship, he shows you How to use a reticle. And sells a level so he shows you how to use it, incorrectly I might add. He is a salesman that instructs on the tools he sells. he works with things like the kestrel that are not marksmanship related. You can have the best data, but if you can’t shoot what good do they do?
his only formal training if you want to call it that was one week of private instruction at rifles only with jacob, a course I taught for 7 years, plus my military schooling, widgets are a thing, using it wrong is real.
I was there day one he showed up on the scene, as a cowboy action shooter not a precision rifle one.
I've been following the everyday sniper podcast for a while so I'm very familiar with Frank's rants on bubble levels. This weekend I learned the hard way. I went to a finale match and have been shooting great all season. This was a field style match with the first 5 stages heavy positional which I did very well on, only dropping a shot here and there or timing out but with no misses. The back half was the long range stuff and I completely tanked. I'm 2 years into match shooting, so I was unable to figure out what was wrong during the match. What I think happened is on 1 of the stages I hit the level hard on a barricade and it shifted quite a bit. On all the long range stages I referenced the crooked level and I even remember even thinking to myself, WTF my rifle seems canted - but my dumb ass kept shooting anyway. When I got home and got behind the rifle and it was immediately apparent that the bubble level was off. It's now in the trash. Lesson learned.
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Maybe I'm the weird one....but...I don't use a level...I have an MDT ACC chassis with the vertical grip. I use the long grip as a kind of plumb bob. Due to the length of the grip I can quickly tell if my rifle is canted or not...actually...my brain tells me...but the grip confirms...I can easily straighten out my rifle for the follow up shot. My 300 PRC has a lot of rotational torque when I run the 250 A-Tips at high speed and I have to reset it for each shot. The 230s don't do this. I've decided to stay with the 230's for other reasons too.
So...I do have a bubble on the bottom/back of my Sphur mount...but I don't use it...can't see it...it is hidden below my plane of view. If I had to make weight by 1 ounce and I could...I'd remove the bubble instead of taking off something else. Like I said...maybe I'm weird or stupid...or both...but never seen why I needed a bubble level and my niche is 1 mile paper and ELR steel. Maybe I'm doing everything so wrong it evens out to good results.
So...I do have a bubble on the bottom/back of my Sphur mount...but I don't use it...can't see it...it is hidden below my plane of view. If I had to make weight by 1 ounce and I could...I'd remove the bubble instead of taking off something else. Like I said...maybe I'm weird or stupid...or both...but never seen why I needed a bubble level and my niche is 1 mile paper and ELR steel. Maybe I'm doing everything so wrong it evens out to good results.
$9,000 range finder? I'd rather pay 10 guys with yarn to go walk out whatever I'm shooting and hold a flag up!
No disrespect but you need to learn how TH became that guy. He’s never had an original idea in his life. He’s basically China of ye shooting world.
You just posted a wall of text because you can’t comprehend no one is arguing that cant doesn’t exist or doesn’t cause misses.
The argument is over how to make sure you don’t cant the rifle. A $3 plastic level in a $60 package isn’t how you should go about it.
You have also failed to comprehend the idea is to use a level while training so that you don’t have to rely on it when you’re pressed for time.
If you are constantly correcting for cant using a level, that’s a problem. The solution to the problem isn’t to rely on the level. The solution is set the rifle up to the shooter better, or the shooter needs to learn to build a better position.
Once trained properly, when under clock or stress, if the shooter looks at the level, they should see they are level and not have to adjust.
Levels used the way many promote them (and you’re endorsing these people) is incorrect and a crutch. Not once have any of them emphasized the level as a training tool primarily and is a utility tool on the rifle to be used when in very compromised positions.
Also, no one is saying you shouldn’t use a level when you’re shooting ELR where every tiny thing matters.
But except for a small section, this site’s primary focus is practical shooting. Therefore all the ELR talking points are moot.
Just like I’d be perfectly content with a 40 es on ammo for practical purposes but not for ELR or shooting very small things at distance.
Context is important.
But except for a small section, this site’s primary focus is practical shooting. Therefore all the ELR talking points are moot.
Just like I’d be perfectly content with a 40 es on ammo for practical purposes but not for ELR or shooting very small things at distance.
Context is important.
Caylen and Phil are 300 million percent more qualified than this ass clown
Yes, I agree, a proficient shooter is usually able to see cant without a level, however, shooting in mountainous terrain, I have definitely been fooled at what I thought was level vs actual level. I would say if I were working in that environment, or shooting a match in those conditions, a level is apart of the kit I would have and use.
I see the training aids aspect, sure, it is taught that way at a certain sniper course. Like literally in the verbiage. Ask me how I know... Personally, I've also been on a mountainside in Afghanistan aiming at more than steel. It is about context, and I promise it is not always apparent that the reticle is canted.
I think it is a simple piece of kit that depending on your application it may be something worth keeping around and maintaining; They do come to lose and can be set up incorrectly.
I see the training aids aspect, sure, it is taught that way at a certain sniper course. Like literally in the verbiage. Ask me how I know... Personally, I've also been on a mountainside in Afghanistan aiming at more than steel. It is about context, and I promise it is not always apparent that the reticle is canted.
I think it is a simple piece of kit that depending on your application it may be something worth keeping around and maintaining; They do come to lose and can be set up incorrectly.
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After reading the Hide for a while, I took the levels off my rifles; went to MileHigh class w Frank and Mike; banged a 30"x40" plate at a mile w Hornady Black (with the help of excellent spotting by Mike...). I guess I won't use a level going forward. Anybody wanna buy two lightly used Burris bubble levels?
Nobody is debating the usefulness of a GOOD QUALITY level. Personally, I've never owned one. Perhaps, it would have shortened my learning curve. But, sooner or later, you're going to have to take off the training wheels and learn to ride like a big boy.
I was gona say something about it being bullshit that anyone disrespected him, but obviously now that would be incorrect...
If you read back from the beginning you can see who is talking in absolutes, and who isn't. Your eye/inner ear/brain can get fooled, but no one is saying that flying on instruments is never necessary. Most are saying that VFR should be your goto.
If you read back from the beginning you can see who is talking in absolutes, and who isn't. Your eye/inner ear/brain can get fooled, but no one is saying that flying on instruments is never necessary. Most are saying that VFR should be your goto.
I was gona say something about it being bullshit that anyone disrespected him, but obviously now that would be incorrect...
If you read back from the beginning you can see who is talking in absolutes, and who isn't. Your eye/inner ear/brain can get fooled, but no one is saying that flying on instruments is never necessary. Most are saying that VFR should be your goto.
Let me throw this out there since I stirred up the hive.
Since the bubble level is a training aid, when removing it what are the critical factors in rifle setup that allow the shooter to shoulder a level rifle? Assume a prone position.
Since removing my level I notice that most of the time I'm pretty darn close to level, however when I do spot check and find that I'm canted slightly it seems to be directly associated to cheek weld. So is the solution a better anchor point or to purposefully mount my optic with offset so when I shoulder the rifle it is perfectly level? Perhaps this is also the point where investing in a class from Frank, Jim See, Phil, etc would be the best solution to reinforce fundamentals.
Since the bubble level is a training aid, when removing it what are the critical factors in rifle setup that allow the shooter to shoulder a level rifle? Assume a prone position.
Since removing my level I notice that most of the time I'm pretty darn close to level, however when I do spot check and find that I'm canted slightly it seems to be directly associated to cheek weld. So is the solution a better anchor point or to purposefully mount my optic with offset so when I shoulder the rifle it is perfectly level? Perhaps this is also the point where investing in a class from Frank, Jim See, Phil, etc would be the best solution to reinforce fundamentals.
So here is a clarification on the details of the use I want to expand on because I can and do evolve my understanding of the needs and uses of certain tools.
1. A level is a tool, which can be misused, underused, overused, and improperly managed, so that is part of my thinking. It requires understanding and training to effectively employ.
2. Give the context of different disciplines how, where and when the rifle is set up, with this understanding, I see the consideration to be one of time and place.
a. Target Shooting, slow fire, I see very little need to reference a level. I can set up the rifle towards the target and lock the bipod in place, or front rest, the shooter should not be canting the rifle. A simple glance of the turret horizon relationship is really all you need. Is the straight, can you lock the bipod, because if you are in the middle of shooting a string and you are canting that is a training issue. you are pushing or pulling the rifle over.
b. PRS shooting, here I have a bit of an issue, mainly because the majority of the targets are close, 2 MOA on average and off a bag. So the influence is different, however, they are adding in a metric ton of speed. With the speed aspect in mind, they cannot set up the shot as accurately as someone not on the clock. With this in mind, a quick glance is faster and easier than trying to set it up, but it's really less critical. You have flat-bottom rifles on sandbags, the cant potential is pretty small unless the shooter is adding too much personal influence during the string and that is a training issue.
c. In ELR I would set up ahead of time and lock the bipod again. They give you time and opportunity, if you want to use it as an insurance policy because of the range, I get it. But it's really just a safety check and not a primary if you asked me.
The key difference with the disagreement in the use of the level with me and PRS/NRL Crowd is SPEED. They don't have the time to manage all the tools, so they want to be able to glance. I get it, but at the same time I feel the weak link crowd that screams, YOU HAVE TO OR ELSE has convinced a wide cross-section of shooters, they have to or else. This is my main complaint with the entire conversation. The all or nothing crowd which has engaged in a narrative that has taken hold to say, you must or your cant' be successful at long-range shooting. Levels are only about 15 years old. We shot long range prior to 2005. We shot PRS Style events prior to 2005, the first SHC was 2002, not a single level on the line.
Can you be taught to align the rifle to gravity, yes absolutely but like any endeavor it takes time. 3000 repetition to build a new positive neural pathways, 9000 reps to fix a bad habit. You can shortcut that process by adding an Indicator to the rifle to shortcut the process. If you recognize this is a shortcut, great, if you don't, that is my problem.
A level is a tool, one that must be properly managed.
1. A level is a tool, which can be misused, underused, overused, and improperly managed, so that is part of my thinking. It requires understanding and training to effectively employ.
2. Give the context of different disciplines how, where and when the rifle is set up, with this understanding, I see the consideration to be one of time and place.
a. Target Shooting, slow fire, I see very little need to reference a level. I can set up the rifle towards the target and lock the bipod in place, or front rest, the shooter should not be canting the rifle. A simple glance of the turret horizon relationship is really all you need. Is the straight, can you lock the bipod, because if you are in the middle of shooting a string and you are canting that is a training issue. you are pushing or pulling the rifle over.
b. PRS shooting, here I have a bit of an issue, mainly because the majority of the targets are close, 2 MOA on average and off a bag. So the influence is different, however, they are adding in a metric ton of speed. With the speed aspect in mind, they cannot set up the shot as accurately as someone not on the clock. With this in mind, a quick glance is faster and easier than trying to set it up, but it's really less critical. You have flat-bottom rifles on sandbags, the cant potential is pretty small unless the shooter is adding too much personal influence during the string and that is a training issue.
c. In ELR I would set up ahead of time and lock the bipod again. They give you time and opportunity, if you want to use it as an insurance policy because of the range, I get it. But it's really just a safety check and not a primary if you asked me.
The key difference with the disagreement in the use of the level with me and PRS/NRL Crowd is SPEED. They don't have the time to manage all the tools, so they want to be able to glance. I get it, but at the same time I feel the weak link crowd that screams, YOU HAVE TO OR ELSE has convinced a wide cross-section of shooters, they have to or else. This is my main complaint with the entire conversation. The all or nothing crowd which has engaged in a narrative that has taken hold to say, you must or your cant' be successful at long-range shooting. Levels are only about 15 years old. We shot long range prior to 2005. We shot PRS Style events prior to 2005, the first SHC was 2002, not a single level on the line.
Can you be taught to align the rifle to gravity, yes absolutely but like any endeavor it takes time. 3000 repetition to build a new positive neural pathways, 9000 reps to fix a bad habit. You can shortcut that process by adding an Indicator to the rifle to shortcut the process. If you recognize this is a shortcut, great, if you don't, that is my problem.
A level is a tool, one that must be properly managed.
So is it overkill to have a bubble on your base, your mount, and on your scope.... asking for a friend.
@lowlight I mentioned this in another thread...but do you feel with the modern chassis systems with the vertical grips...that the grip itself can be a plumb bob and easier and more intuitive....and not able to be knocked out of square....but a quicker reference to a canted rifle?
I myself use this method and don't use a bubble level. When my rifle isn't square...my brain freezes and says, "Something isn't right here man".
I myself use this method and don't use a bubble level. When my rifle isn't square...my brain freezes and says, "Something isn't right here man".
It's really the bipods, the Cyke has no lock, the stock harris has no lock, and what happens is people push it over with their heads first off, and then second they pull it over with the bolt,
The part they mention regarding their vestibular sense being fooled is because several have their heads slightly rolled over. When your scope is too low, and your bipod is too low, which everyone says, lower is better, but it's not, the context of that original statement is missing so most go by the words, not the actual meaning. Rolling the head messes with the brain, our eyes are not able to properly engage our hunter vision.
What people don't realize is, much of this is subconscious so they have no idea they are doing it, and if you are rolled you move to fix that but usually in the wrong direction because of the set up.
FWIW, there is an aftermarket lock for the Cyke Pod
SAP Ckye-Pod Quick Adjust Lever - Short Action Precision
WORKS WITH ALL Gen I and Gen II Ckye-Pods EXCEPT HEAVY DUTY NOTE: MDT MADE A REVISION ON SOME OF THE NEW CKYE-PODS STARTING NOVEMBER 2023. PLEASE CHECK TO MAKE CERTAIN WHICH STYLE THAT YOU HAVE. THE LEVERS ARE SPECIFIC TO WHETHER YOU HAVE THE UPDATED PART WITH THE CURVE OR THE ORIGINAL FLAT...
Hmmmmm.... you threw the level away, because it was misapplied when you should have known it was off? The bubble level wasn't off. It was absolutely correct. Unfortunately, it was no longer mounted correctly.
This is like throwing away a scope after you missed shots and later discovered the mount was loose.
I took the level off, and re-mounted it correctly. Scope was leveled to a plumb line and then the bubble level was attached. The image below is when I got home after the match and found the level was off showing the offset prior to fixing it. Man, I was just pissed that I threw the match away for something so silly. It's all a learning experience so next time I'll know. Also... it's not like throwing a scope away. I wouldn't throw a $2,500 optic system away from the mount coming loose. You don't need a $40 level. I'm going to follow lowlights post above as my primary applications are PRS/NRL and hunting. As they say, you can't have a $10,000 rifle and be a $5 shooter. I'm probably a $25 shooter at this point
Gotta put more work in.Attachments
Spend the money on more ammo, it's worth more than a cheap ass level.As they say, you can't have a $10,000 rifle and be a $5 shooter. I'm probably a $25 shooter at this point
For new shooters as I said previously, good for teaching people in dry fire in a class room. Drop to rifle, acquire target, fire, repeat. If in doubt, use it as a teaching aid, but eventually you should put some electrical tape on it to cover it and dont use it a a crutch.
Now that we have established that bubble levels solve shooter induced cant issues.
Can someone point me to the Natural Point of Aim indicator light I can mount to my rifle?
Can someone point me to the Natural Point of Aim indicator light I can mount to my rifle?
Did you verify that your turret cap is 100% square to the reticle? Did you adjust that piece of shit gold level to be 100% true to gravity? I think part of the problem is the assumptions you may be making, and the equipment you’re making them with.I took the level off, and re-mounted it correctly. Scope was leveled to a plumb line and then the bubble level was attached. The image below is when I got home after the match and found the level was off showing the offset prior to fixing it. Man, I was just pissed that I threw the match away for something so silly. It's all a learning experience so next time I'll know. Also... it's not like throwing a scope away. I wouldn't throw a $2,500 optic system away from the mount coming loose. You don't need a $40 level. I'm going to follow lowlights post above as my primary applications are PRS/NRL and hunting. As they say, you can't have a $10,000 rifle and be a $5 shooter. I'm probably a $25 shooter at this point
Yes. I've confirmed it before. The scope reticle was leveled to a plumb line and tightened down and everything else was subsequently leveled and mounted according to gravity. It just got smacked on a barricade and moved. Earlier this year I walked the same rifle out to 1,500 yards and had 2nd round hit at 1,000 and first round hits at 1,200 and 1,300 and had no problem hitting sub-minute targets at 600 yards. Point being that something changed this particular match, the bubble level.
I can agree with a lot of this, the one problem you allude too is the word correctly
We see more using them incorrectly than correctly
lots of caveats which all matter and tend to be more the rule vs the exception
the quality is also suspicious as I have seen them out of spec to properly work correctly or have been set up incorrectly
again my issues is the idea you have to use vs you should use it. Many whI’m don’t use them correctly advocate for their use as a must vs a should or could.
you can easily set up a rifle and scope and be closer to right than not, the brain is capable of resolving better than the level. A vial is not nearly as accurate as you believe between then lines. It has been demonstrated the brain is more accurate. Now the electronic ones are better.
sure set up correctly (keyword) and used properly, as well as being managed and maintained (another key) they are useful
now the reality, people use them wrong and fail to manage them. They put 100% of their trust in them before learning to align their own senses to the world.
are they a useful tool sure, but within context. Blind or blanket use is not the answer either
consider the lesson of software, another useful tool to put metal on target. Used correctly they are a benefit, used incorrectly it’s a miss as well.
if you are canting off a barricade on a bag enough to miss a 10” plate at 400 I would venture a level is not your fix.
@lowlight ... if this can happen with a level , why can't it happen with rings and scope bases?
I'm talking about shit quality machining of parts that are supposed to be square...?
I'm talking about shit quality machining of parts that are supposed to be square...?
of course it can happen see rail mounted levels vs scope tube,
as well I have a video loading right now showing a variation in quality of the bubble
as well I have a video loading right now showing a variation in quality of the bubble
I whole heartedly agree with you. Please be aware that not everyone has served their country in the way that others have. Being LEO, or even a clerk in some mil/Leo role is important, and does not require them inject small bits of lead into soft targets at distance. They enable said snipers to do their job effectively.
PRS / NRL / hunting is as close as they can get, so just remember that's why many people here are these sorts of people. They serve in different ways, and have fun (down time) in different ways.
You’re right. Snipers haven’t been able to hit anything without a level......oh wait.
You are yet another person that has skipped over the whole point. No one is saying not to use a level. Just that it isn’t a requirement, and that most don’t use them properly.
