Hexagonal Boron Nitride bullet coating

3-0-hate

3-0-hate

Captain Nimcompoop
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Minuteman
Jun 13, 2011
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Lost in Idaho...
#1
Anyone else coating their bullets with h-BN?

I just got a new 6creed barrel and decided I wanted to do something about extending the barrel life as much as possible. I will be loading H1000 to help with that some, but I have also decided to start coating the bullets in Hex Boron Nitride. Its easy enough to do, dump some bullets in an old 1lb powder jug, put 1/4tsp of h-BN in said jug, wedge jug into Franford Arsenal SS Media tumbler, tumble for 45mins to an hour, dump everything out on a microfiber cloth, wipe off the excess and then load.

These things get slippery once coated. I had a hard time just picking them up off the cloth to put into the jug I store them in, they kept slipping out from between my fingers.

I have a total of $10 invested in this experiment of mine. I use roughly 5grains of h-BN per tumble (200 bullets) and $10 got me 385grains. I should be good for quite some time, and hopefully this process will help with throat erosion and overall barrel life. So what if I have to use just a bit more powder to get the velocity back up, I would say its worth it.
 
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#3
I was doing it, it seemed like I was getting inconsistencies, and I usually carry my ammo in a TAB ammo carrier which wore coating off the bullets. I may try it again, the extra work, care, and inconsistency killed it for me
 
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#4
I coat every rifle/bullet I own.
I’m not sure why some get inconsistencies, I often think about it, and I can only think that it’s maybe the application process.
I do know, if you apply the slurry after each range session, I get a cold bore flyer. If I don’t, I keep my cold bore in the group. I use a bore snake after I get back from the range, and apply the slurry, the cold bore flyer doesn’t bother me.
I noticed neck tension and chamfered necks can affect the HBN being scraped off the bearing surface. But I anneal and pay careful attention to my neck tension. It’s just enough to grip the bullet without it moving in the neck.
 
#6
I tried not wiping off before loading.
But I noticed my COAL varied badly. This was because my seating stem got caked with hex and started shorting up my length. I give them a wipe down when I get them out of the tumbler, and wipe down the ogive real good when loading.
 
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#7
missed said:
I was doing it, it seemed like I was getting inconsistencies, and I usually carry my ammo in a TAB ammo carrier which wore coating off the bullets. I may try it again, the extra work, care, and inconsistency killed it for me
Click to expand...
-
can't wear it off . it a Nano size particle . which is (i think?) 'Nano' is 1/1000 smaller particle than a Micron. size .
So once it works into the Micro. surface imperfections of the outer copper jacket, I don't think you can see it or get rid of it .

Everyone was used to seeing Moly lube in the beginning . when Hbn 1st came out, people were commenting on the fact that once you buff-off the frost after you finished tumbling in Hbn ' you could not see it ' on the bullets . but I don't think it posible to actually see it . And what you are seeing on the surface of your bullets is the fact that you tumled them in a copper BB media, so it kind of gives a dullness to the new copper jackets .
.
edit add:
So naturally Hbn, it also going to work it way into the Bore surface of the barrel as you keep using it .
I used it a few Cals. I shoot . But It great for bullet lube just on the one fact that it is non hygroscopic like Moly Lube . So it won't ever draw rust in the Bore of rifle, if left sitting for time .
.
 
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#8
Softcock,

That is what I was originally thinking, I was thinking my ammo carrying may have been causing some of my inconsistencies. I'm going to give it a try again.
 
#9
I've been using hexagonal boron nitride coating on all my rifle bullets for almost seven years now. Softcock was right about the molecular structure, IF you buy the nano particle size. It does come in several different grades.

I have a couple of mini turbo Lyman vibrator tubs that I filled with ceramic beads and use around a teaspoon of the HBN for each batch of 100 bullets. I vibrate them for at least four hours. Tip: the warmer it is, the better the saturation of the particles. I would recommend a heat lamp in the winter, or a hot garage in the summer. Don't melt the tub or start a fire!

I strongly recommend wiping off the visible powder. I use a soft cotton cloth to pretty much polish each round. When I'm done, they're almost too slippery to pick up with your fingers.

The research I did before using it indicated that the melting point of the substance is so high that bores don't suffer the same fate as shooting moly coated bullets. I haven't see any problems and have noticed less copper fouling than when I shoot uncoated bullets.

+1 on needed more powder. Since the coating reduces friction, it changes the pressure curve.

Your mileage may vary, but I haven't found any consistencies.


Powder IMR-4064 42.6 gr
Cases LC/LR once fired
Bullets Sierra 175gr MK HPBT hBN coated
Primers Federal GMM


example-of-hbn-coated-20120113.png


If there are any problems, I would suspect hollow point bullets. The powder has a tendency to clog the hollow. After reading this thread, I'm tempted to due some batch comparisons between hollow points that are clogged, those that aren't, and full metal jacket.
 
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#11
I'm going to tumble some bullets this next week, I have heat! I'll just run the tumbler in the non air conditioned section of the shop in the afternoon. I'll make it a point to clean out the hollow points which I haven't in the past. I did clean my barrel a couple weeks ago after 500 rounds, didn't take much to get it clean.
 
#12
I remember when I first starting hunting this stuff back in 2010-2011. There were a limited number of sources and most didn't specify the particle size. Now, they've got the stuff on Amazon.

For reference, this is 1 ounce:
HBN-1oz-20180706.png


This is the 11 1/2 ounces (including plastic bag) I have still, after processing around 10K to 11K bullets:
HBN-11oz-20180706.png

I can't remember if the "-5 micron" is supposed to be 5 micron or .5, but the stuff has worked great for me.

BTW... if you get a little plastic "puffer" bottle, blowing this into locks works better than the old powdered graphite. I also use it to treat action parts and springs, anything I can fit in a vibrating tumbler.
 
#13
This is interesting. I've used it to dry lube the inside of 50 BMG brass during resizing (makes it way easier on the up stroke!) but never gave it a thought to coat bullets with it.
 
#14
To the OP. I have no experience with HBn coated bullets, but I do have quite a bit of experience running H1000 in a 243 Ackley. Even with bare 115 DTACs I get usable, but mederate velocities. With 105 grain bullets I have a pretty compressed charge to hit 3160 fps from a 26" Criterion, even using a funnel with a 5" drop tube. I don't know this for certain, but I would suspect you will run out of case capacity before you hit your target velocity with H1000 in the smaller 6 creed case with HBn coated bullets. You might want to do some velocity testing with bare bullets and see how things shake out before moving to coated bullets. Let us know how things work out. I've heard mixed results with H1000 in the 6 creed. I've been thinking about moving to it to get away from fireforming, but I don't want to give up a bunch of velocity or barrel life, both of which are very good with my current setup. If you have good results I'll likely order my next barrel chambered in 6 creed.
 
#15
MakeSawdust said:
To the OP. I have no experience with HBn coated bullets, but I do have quite a bit of experience running H1000 in a 243 Ackley. Even with bare 115 DTACs I get usable, but mederate velocities. With 105 grain bullets I have a pretty compressed charge to hit 3160 fps from a 26" Criterion, even using a funnel with a 5" drop tube. I don't know this for certain, but I would suspect you will run out of case capacity before you hit your target velocity with H1000 in the smaller 6 creed case with HBn coated bullets. You might want to do some velocity testing with bare bullets and see how things shake out before moving to coated bullets. Let us know how things work out. I've heard mixed results with H1000 in the 6 creed. I've been thinking about moving to it to get away from fireforming, but I don't want to give up a bunch of velocity or barrel life, both of which are very good with my current setup. If you have good results I'll likely order my next barrel chambered in 6 creed.
Click to expand...

Good point.

If your optimum powder/load combination is compressed or near full capacity, you may not want those bullets coated. The HBN reduces the throat/bore friction considerably. In most cases, you will need to increase the load to compensate velocity. On the other hand, you might want to explore other powders. The lower friction of the bullet appears to change the pressure curve of powders significantly, lending to experimentation.

Regarding barrel life, the HBN coated bullets are believed to extend bore life. It would only make sense. The powder is a high temperature, nano particle lubricant.

Luckily, I made the decision to coat early in load development and reload currently only 5.56 and 7.62 in rifle calibers. My thinking may have to change if I add the 6.5 Creedmoor to my repertoire.
 
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#16
One safety note about using HBN: As with all industrial fine particle powders, I strongly recommend using an N95 surgical mask and gloves when handling the powder, especially when opening the vibratory tumbler bowl, extracting the bullets from the media by hand, and polishing the excess powder from the bullets. Though science claims the substance is inert, common sense prevails. Nobody knows what effects long term exposure may have.
 
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#17
TXSGFmrCWO3 said:
One safety note about using HBN: As with all industrial fine particle powders, I strongly recommend using an N95 surgical mask and gloves when handling the powder, especially when opening the vibratory tumbler bowl, extracting the bullets from the media by hand, and polishing the excess powder from the bullets. Though science claims the substance is inert, common sense prevails. Nobody knows what effects long term exposure may have.
Click to expand...
The only challenge with a N95 is the HBN is smaller than the mask can handle. Good practices with it, I open and separate in the side of my shop that has dust control.
 
#18
missed said:
The only challenge with a N95 is the HBN is smaller than the mask can handle. Good practices with it, I open and separate in the side of my shop that has dust control.
Click to expand...
Excellent suggestion.

The N95 works for me (in theory):

95 - Removes 95% of all particles that are at least 0.3 microns in diameter (https://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/resources/dust-masks-whats-the-difference.html)

According to the label, the mask should block the 5 micron (even .5) micron particles.

Since the substance isn't considered a toxic, I am concerned more with reducing the level of accumulated exposure, not necessarily eliminate altogether.

If I had a vent hood, dust control environment handy, I admit I would probably use it myself.

Thanks for bringing that up.
 
#19
I realize the thread is old, but it contains good info:

OK, so clearly many of you guys have a lot of experience with HBN, and it works well for you. Interested in trying it in my 6.5 Creedmoor. It is an MPA BA rifle with a 26” barrel, and a min spec chamber so speed is lower than normal (2740 for 140’s), would be nice to explore up to 2850. Also hope to get the cold bore shot “in the group” at the longer ranges.

How much speed do you lose if you HBN coat bullet and barrel but keep the powder charge the same?

Also: How much powder do you add to get maximum speed out the HBN setup, and how much speed do you gain before pressure signs show up?

Is it common to have to switch powders and redo a full load development?

[Not a speed demon, and prefer to find a nice wide node for short range work, while relying on positive compensation for long range. So i often shoot 50-100 fps below the point where definitive pressure signs like sticky bolt lift and full moon ejector marks show up. So just curious, as i might find a good load higher up the speed range without pushing pressure.]
 
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#20
I have just started using HBN. I have noticed in my .30-06 that I have to increase the load about .2-.5 of a grain to get the same velocities as I was getting with untreated bullets. Early results (I have only been using it for about 3 weeks and 3 range visits) are that it does away with the cold bore flyer on the first shot. That's important for a hunting round. As for tightening groups, I have not yet noticed that, but I have been having typical spring weather, and that includes gusting wind.

The problem for me has been getting good coating on the bullets. So far I have been rolling the 1 lb powder bottle, and there is not as much impact that way. I'm working on a way to tumble the bottle end-over-end to see if that improves coating.
 
#21
Does anyone have sources for the correct sized HBN (both bullets and bore) as well as the media? The ceramic seems like a good idea and I've seen jeweler's SS various shapes recommended.

I'd like to give it a try. I'm not sure if case capacity will work in the 6.5CM 130gr bullet RL26 loads currently using as it's compressed now.
 
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#22
Lyman makes a ceramic media coating kit that has the media and a small vibratory bowl with lid. I started with that when I tried moly coating 20 years ago. I bought a second kit when I switched over to tungsten disulfide. You should be able to find .6 micron HBN at the David Tubbs site or on Amazon. The most important parts of getting a good consistent repeatable product is cleaning the bullets with non-chlorinated brake cleaner, rubbing them dry between towels and using a timer to control how long they get tumbled.
 
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#23
jpndave said:
Does anyone have sources for the correct sized HBN (both bullets and bore) as well as the media? The ceramic seems like a good idea and I've seen jeweler's SS various shapes recommended.

I'd like to give it a try. I'm not sure if case capacity will work in the 6.5CM 130gr bullet RL26 loads currently using as it's compressed now.
Click to expand...

Adding HBN should not change the amount of powder you can fit in the case, although if you have to increase the load to get the same velocity (as people say is the case with HBN) you might find you can't fit more in.
 
#24
So!, is the Tubb HBN Kit GTG? as far as micron size?
I usually do not polish the bullets after coating, just a lite rub down! and loaded as my usual regime , I guess I've been doing it wrong.
I will try polishing/cleaning off residue on future loads for my 30 cal guns and see what happens.
I understand the whole increased powder charge to achieve the same FPS , it makes total sense!
On a side note I've been using Imperial graphite & media on my 7mm build and find no ? welding effect between dissimilar metals, copper/brass . I gather that HBN does the same being as cold bore shots are very close to strings of fire is this correct?
Thanks!
 
#25
My understanding is two different grades (sizes) are used for coating the bullets and slurry in the bore. I'd like to find the best source for raw material without have to buy a "kit".

Yes, powder charge needs to go up to bring pressure/velocity back to where it was. My concern is already being compressed if there will be room for more to get velocity back.
 
#26
As far as capacity goes I guess you need to pick your battles as far as powder charge & bullet combinations are concerned. My question stands is the Tubb product GTG?, it is a little expensive and I too would like options !
 
#27
If anyone finds a source for HBN alone -- not with the measuring spoons etc., -- please post it here. Including what size it is. Thanks.
 
#28
epoletna said:
If anyone finds a source for HBN alone -- not with the measuring spoons etc., -- please post it here. Including what size it is. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The damn link at Amazon is too long to post here, just do an Amazon search for Hexagonal Boron Nitride Powder. It does come up with multiple choices. You want to select the 0.5 micron. A very small amount goes a long way. I've not used it in a slurry but the preferred method to make the slurry is about half a gram in 1 fluid ounce of denatured alcohol. It can be used dry with a bore mop instead of the slurry. Either way, be sure to dry patch the bore and clean the chamber of any residue before shooting. The brand name is Microlubrol.
 
#29
ken4570tc in WY said:
The damn link at Amazon is too long to post here, just do an Amazon search for Hexagonal Boron Nitride Powder. It does come up with multiple choices. You want to select the 0.5 micron. A very small amount goes a long way. I've not used it in a slurry but the preferred method to make the slurry is about half a gram in 1 fluid ounce of denatured alcohol. It can be used dry with a bore mop instead of the slurry. Either way, be sure to dry patch the bore and clean the chamber of any residue before shooting. The brand name is Microlubrol.
Click to expand...
There is a thread posted somewhere (I'll try to find it) about that HBN being abrasive/not pure. It has me nervous. The actual best source, out of Canada I believe, is large quantity only. Maybe we should "group buy" a batch and share it. I've toyed with just buying the larger quantities myself.
 
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#31
I hope I am not too late this hasn't already been covered. Have my brass in just the dust at the moment - I use different size stainless bb's and stainless media (2.5lb Media (.047" x .255" pin Size)

I abandoned the brass cleaner it came with and just went with Dove.

I love the two media working together but this is just my first run.

MY questions is this. How do you coat your bore in the stuff? I saw somebody suggest a foam swab covered in a liquid form of the powder, mixed in with alcohol, I think... ?

Any thoughts on this matter? What is the hbn/alcohol ratio?

Thanks!

BlackOpsEnt
 
#32
I bought a kit to coat the bore. It included the HBN, a half-pint plastic squeeze bottle, and a few foam swabs.

The instructions were to mix a small amount of HBN with alcohol in the squeeze bottle, thoroughly clean the bore, then run a saturated swab through it about 20 times, re-saturating it several times.

I was never happy with the process for coating the bullets with HBN. I tried the process you describe: putting the bullets in a bottle with different size BBs and stainless media. When the bullets came out, they looked a little dull, but they didn't really look like the HBN had coated them. Someone posted something here saying they were using walnut shell media to coat their bullets. I don't know how that would cause the HBN to adhere too the copper, but I haven't tried that method.

I suppose you've been told you should wash your bullets in water and detergent (Dawn).

Please post whether or not you think HBN improves your scores. I was not impressed with it, but perhaps I wan't getting a good enough coat on the bullets. I would like to be proven wrong.
 
#33
Thank you for your thoughts. Ironically, after baking my cases (mind you, I am talking cases here, not projectiles), there is still residual moisture in my turning tub. Therefore, I am getting some type of benefit, I reckon, on having a slight amount of moisture, thus thinning the compound further.

My initial results are I am alright with this type of lubricant, rather than a Hornady case lube aerosol. I believe the coverage is further and the cost is certainly advantageous.

I have de-primed about 2250 cases now with the hbn lube and I am satisfied. I have a Hornady A&P Progressive press and the de-prime/neck size is the most abusive, in my opinion. The hbn does a better job lubing the cases. I am running the cases for about 20 minutes.
 
#34
I'm so sorry -- I completely misunderstood. Mostly because I have never heard of using HBN as a case lube. I'm glad it works for you in the sizing die. I wonder what effect it has on your case at the moment of firing? Interesting. I'll be watching to see what else I can learn here!
 
#35
I have tried to collect a shit ton of data over the past few months with limited success. This will be my first run using hbn as the lube. I wasn't able to collect good data from my last trip to the range so I will have to revert back to Hornady 140gr ELD-Match in order to have any comparison.

I am a pretty big geek but I am not sure I will be able to provide useful data. I am just sold on the idea hbn is a fantastic lubricant which can be used on all your firearm accessories. This is how I am approaching.

Again, thank you for your thoughts.

BOE
 
#36
I missed something too here I think... I have heard that you never want to have lube on your cases when you fire them. Also heard hBn is extremely difficult to remove from your bore if you want to stop using it. It would seem like it would never be completely removed from your cases either?? What am I missing?
 
#37
I need to clarify when I say 'bullets', I am referring to the cases only. Technically, I am coating my brass only at this point with an eye to coat the barrel sometime soon. The bullets have only been washed in dawn detergent. If I get a wild hair up my butt, I may also send the bullets through a tumble in hbn. I only use micro amounts for 150 cases. My tumbling media does all the work.

You've got me on this question. I based my initial interest in hbn from Gavintoob, a pretty dedicated reloader. Perhaps I missed something during the presentation. It also may not have been him where I heard it - I watch a LOT of youtube videos dedicated to the sport of reloading.

Generally, I try to wipe all my bullets down prior to firing them. It shines them up a bit and I believe cleaner brass performs better in my Wilson Combat 6.5 Super Sniper. This gun is particularly sensitive to lubrication issues so the goal is to shoot the gun "wet". hbn is a lubricating product - how can you go wrong with extra lubricant? It's not like this additional lubrication will keep the bullet from spinning, or such shit.

I also figure if I no longer which to have my barrel/bullets covered in hbn, I assumed I could go at the barrels with bore cleaner - Who knows? I don't yet but I am willing to try to see if this additional lubricant is a help or hindrance.

Stay tuned...
 
#38
My comment regarding lubricant on the case is based on my understanding that at the moment of ignition, the brass case expands to seat in the chamber and seal it off from any gas escaping around the case. Interestingly, a few military weapons (autoloaders) actually put grooves in the chamber so gas can seep around the case and prevent it from "locking" in the chamber, thus allowing faster cycling time.

But the think with bolt guns (I understand) is that you want the case to be "locked" into the chamber for a short period of time (milliseconds). Having HBN on the case or in the chamber would defeat this, I should think, with unexpected and possibly undesired results.

Again, I will be watching to see how this all works out.
 
#39
I read you may expect to have to adjust the pressure on your loads, as it will go down. Based on what I was reading/watched, it should only require I look at my previous loads for velocity and load up to the same velocity - as Fred points out below, only .2gr.

I will start at my trusty 41.5gr H4350. Both guns seem to eat this nicely with 140 bullets.
 
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#40
BOE:

My experience HBN coating bullets was that I had to increase powder charges by about .2 grain in order to get the same velocity.

The one thing I did notice is that the "first shot" was more consistent than it had been before. IOW, I could shoot for record without having to fire a fouling shot first. That was a nice feature.

As for improved accuracy, I can't say I noticed any improvement.

Fred
 
#41
Right, Fred. I measure accuracy at distance by the sound of the metal. My goal is to be able to hit steel targets up to 1365yds - not take the eyeball out of a gopher @ 300yds.
 
#42
epoletna said:
My comment regarding lubricant on the case is based on my understanding that at the moment of ignition, the brass case expands to seat in the chamber and seal it off from any gas escaping around the case. Interestingly, a few military weapons (autoloaders) actually put grooves in the chamber so gas can seep around the case and prevent it from "locking" in the chamber, thus allowing faster cycling time.

But the think with bolt guns (I understand) is that you want the case to be "locked" into the chamber for a short period of time (milliseconds). Having HBN on the case or in the chamber would defeat this, I should think, with unexpected and possibly undesired results.

Again, I will be watching to see how this all works out.
Click to expand...

FWIW, the grooved chambers, like found in many HK rifles, is to reduce the friction lock between the brass case and the chamber during extraction, due to the rifles operating under a delayed roller design as opposed to a traditional locking mechanism. Those cases come out while chamber pressures are still extremely high compared to other action designs like whats found in an AR or AK.

HBn should have no deliterious effects on extraction or chamber seal, especially on a bolt action.
 
#43
Thank you sir, May I have Another??? Oh, Captain, My Captain... love your handle!

Great explanation, though I had to read your summary in order to understand cuz I'm just like - whaaaa?

I was good with "it's lubricant - it can't hurt that bad...."
 
#44
svthuh said:
FWIW, the grooved chambers, like found in many HK rifles, is to reduce the friction lock between the brass case and the chamber during extraction, due to the rifles operating under a delayed roller design as opposed to a traditional locking mechanism. Those cases come out while chamber pressures are still extremely high compared to other action designs like whats found in an AR or AK.

HBn should have no deliterious effects on extraction or chamber seal, especially on a bolt action.
Click to expand...
No, HBN will assist extraction.... it will also greatly increase the thrust against the bolt during firing, possibly giving signs of excess pressure (when ther is no excess pressure) like brass flowing into extractor holes etc, and if the locking lugs aren’t perfect, they may fatigue and shear off....

leaving case lube on your brass is often a bad idea (although there was that ww1 French machine gun that needed the ammo greased...)
 
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#45
Hahaha, Mick! Your thoughts serve to re-enforce my idea I need to wipe down the bullets as much as possible prior to firing.

I sent hbn down the barrel of my Bergara B14 last night. I am pretty sure my ratio of hbn/alcohol is WAY off...

Thank you for your response.

BOE
 
#47
mick243 said:
No, HBN will assist extraction.... it will also greatly increase the thrust against the bolt during firing, possibly giving signs of excess pressure (when ther is no excess pressure) like brass flowing into extractor holes etc, and if the locking lugs aren’t perfect, they may fatigue and shear off....

leaving case lube on your brass is often a bad idea (although there was that ww1 French machine gun that needed the ammo greased...)
Click to expand...
This. Coating your cases with HBN is a bad idea. The Army tested lubricating cases with oil around the same time they were developing the M14 I think. The oil in the chamber was quickly determined to be a very bad idea because it ruined the grip between the case and the chamber wall.

Its been quite awhile since I heard about coating bullets this way and I think the lubricant was molybednum di-sulfide based. I was interested until it was brought up that once a barrel is coated with Moly, its almost impossible to completely remove it. A barrel with a few slick spots in it would ruin any consistency. HexBoron-nitride seems different here. The benefits to neck tension and bore life look intriguing.
 
#49
@mick243 & @Jumper are absolutely correct. Lubing the case body will result in a worst-case situation where your bolt face (and lugs) are taking *all* of the force, and the case body isn't able to seal against the chamber walls. Bad news all around.

If you want to try and see what that'll be like, go swab a case with CLP or Tri-Flow, then fire it :oops:

Better yet, don't. Take the advice of people (myself, for one) who've done stupid $hit like that on accident before.

Ever go shooting in the rain, and put wet ammo in the chamber? Same thing, with the added bonus of water being basically incompressible. Bullet goes out one end, primer out the other.

But hey, go right ahead and lube up them cases nice and slick. Just make sure you're wearing eye pro when you pull that trigger :rolleyes::ROFLMAO:
 
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#50
wow, dude. angry?

As I said, I will post my experience, will post the response from Wilson Combat and Bergara.

A barrel/bolt ain't that fracking expensive.

Here you go, Bro. Enjoy!

US7197986B1 - Composite steel and ceramic gun barrels - Google Patents

A method for lubricating gun barrel bores comprises burnishing dry lubricating ceramic particulate into the metal surface of the bore such that the particles of particulate substantially fill grain boundaries in the metal. The burnishing of the particulate may be done manually or mechanically...
patents.google.com
 
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