Hexagonal Boron Nitride bullet coating

[BlackOpsEnt]

From WILSON COMBAT

Sorry, had to look this one up, we aren't familiar with it. However, if it is a grease or powder, we don't recommend using it. Especially on 9mm's. Usually has a tendency to cause a build up and can slow down the slide. If you are careful where you put it, it may work well on the barrel, but I would be afraid that it would migrate into the areas that would slow the slide. Not sure what to tell you with this situation.

 

[Jumper]

That's a surprising reply. It doesn't engender confidence in Wilson Combat that's for sure. Anything can be overdone but the really small quantities necessary for this stuff to work is one of it's main benefits. I've got some on order, going to experiment a bit.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Experiment, as will, but I do not understand your confidence problem with WC. I asked THEM for their thoughts. I heard a cautionary tale from them regarding the interaction with some components but regarding the barrel, they didn't tell me to do it but they also didn't say I would have to replace my barrel if I performed such an "experiment" being the key.

Frankly, I trust their judgement over anybody's opinion here because I am using THEIR product. They are a very successful business making custom firearms with a very high level of backorder due to product demand. They invest millions in research, money I don't have. They hire experts in their field, the gentleman I spoke with being just one.

I supposed we could reach out to Krieger, see what his thoughts are...

He also mentioned migration of the lubricant to the action. While I use a barrel cleaning guide, I have no fear of migration other than spontaneous interaction with the other parts of the rifle due to residual product. He expresses concern over a grease or powder applied to ALL parts. This concern has also been alleviated by the fact I use a mixture of alcohol/hbn, the proportions of which are still a mystery but it neither a grease or powder when applied.

How do we not learn by trying new things? Firearms are a perfect example, are they not? Glad we have the MSR's of today over flint-lock.

I previously stated I am not looking to knock a gnat off a donkey's ass at 300 yards - I am dealing with much bigger targets and don't need this refined precision to length - other than to 'bang the gong'. #Satisfying

I appreciate the debate in this forum. I wondered if I would even be able to revive it but gosh darn - you guys deliver!

Hey, I don't mind replacing my barrel. They have a match grade, stainless steel barrel ($334) I am going to replace my mat black barrel with so poo-poo to all who are shunning my exercise. It don't matter to me if I trash the barrel - the next one will be MUCH SEXIER...

word to your mother... :-D

 

[memilanuk]

Costs a lot more than $334 to replace a finger, or an eye... which is what you're flirting with.

Can't say I haven't done much the same thing by accident... but to do so intentionally, after having been warned...

 

[Jumper]

@BlackOpsEnt , every firearm manufacturer right now has a months long backorder. It says nothing about their expertise or product. And why did their reply reference a 9mm and slide contamination if you're using hBN on a 6.5 Super Sniper? The fact that they didn't have a clue what it was tells me that you asked them about using it for pistol ammo, which no one does. Or, they've never heard of Dave Tubbs or bullet coating in general? Hell, you got more info about it from this forum and YouTube than you did from Wilson Combat.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Jumper, you are back to bullet coating, which I am NOT doing - by the time my bullets get coated, it will already be 2700 ft in front of me. You also say I must have asked about a 9mm, which is one of their primary weapons platforms, arguably some of the finest 1911 pistols on the market. Why don't you go shoot one before talking smack?

The same freaking parts are involved there, sir - an action and a barrel. Doesn't matter the caliber.

You reference Dave Tubbs but offer nothing about what he has said? wtf ? I thought this was a forum for sharing.

I got your thoughts. Thank you, sir.

 

[Baer45]

To give some hard learned lessons. I coat ALL my bullets with BN. When I first started several years ago, I tried 2 different brands trying to find something cheaper then Tubb’s...(maybe NECO? Was one) but quickly found they took much more work to come out correctly then Tubb’s and to me did not perform as well. After looking into it a little furthe, I found Tubb spent years getting specs on his powder where they needed to be. That is why his can be applied so easily without the use of steel pins or balls for impact which causes problems of their own. With Tubb’s kit put bullets in container (Sierra and Berger’s do not need to be washed first)add powder, tumble in vibratory tumbler for 1-2 hrs and done! Worth every penny to me....I love the stuff and was surprised to learn that Speer coats their Gold Dot BULLET line with HBN...makes sense.../

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Baer45 - Nice! As a result, I am certain your barrel also have coverage of the lubricant.

We all have and are entitled to our opinions.

 

[Baer45]

Baer45 - Nice! As a result, I am certain your barrel also have coverage of the lubricant.

We all have and are entitled to our opinions.

you are correct on both..

 

[mick243]

there seem to be two different ideas running in this thread...

#1, coating projectiles and the rifled part of the barrel with HBN - this might be a good idea.... worst case is you may make the bore a bit harder to clean

#2, coating the brass cartridge case with HBN as a resizing lube. this is almost certainly a terrible idea, worst case is locking lugs shearing off and the bolt coming back into your face with the same amount of energy as the bullet going forwards.

please be sure of what you are doing and why so that you can be as safe as reasonably possible.

 

[E-Tool]

If you coat the caseneck throat and the bullet do you gave to use even more powder?

The case brush I got with a kit has some fine powder (hornady product) I always assumed it was talcum or something i’m betting it’s this stuff.

My rifle has 3 barrels the one i’m most concerned with is 300wm, I may try this and see how it goes.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

For what it's worth, Krieger Barrels said a couple of guys on staff have heard of coating the BARREL and bullets but they do not recommend using it as a BARREL application - because they have not done any research into the qualities of this product on barrel performance.

Another reply from WC (I asked if they had a metallurgist on staff):

Sorry, we sure don't. Over the years, most of these guys have used everything from the graphite powder to the Teflon coating and have all returned to the lighter oils to insure good functionality. Sheering the bolt would be pretty extreme, but that is on a completely other end of the spectrum from causing it to get a build up and slowing it down. I would think, if it speeds it up that much you are more likely to create a feed issue before it sheered.

I have also reached out to Berger Bullets.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

From Berger:

Aaron,
We have done no testing with the HBN at all. So you may want to look at the ACCURATE SHOOTER website or Go to David Tubbs website . He is the one who came up with the HBN to use to reduce friction and barrel wear.

Visit No BS BC’s to Learn More About BC’s, Why BC Consistency Wins, and BC’s Effect on Accuracy and Precision.

 

[Jumper]

If you coat the caseneck throat and the bullet do you gave to use even more powder?

The case brush I got with a kit has some fine powder (hornady product) I always assumed it was talcum or something i’m betting it’s this stuff.

My rifle has 3 barrels the one i’m most concerned with is 300wm, I may try this and see how it goes.

The stuff in your case brush kit is motor mica. It's not hBN. I have one and I bet it's the same one.

 

[Jumper]

@BlackOpsEnt
There's 3 issues here: Coating bullets and barrels with hBN. This is a fairly recent (20yrs or so) innovation and it's benefits are demonstrable and repeatable. HBN is what Moly should have been.

The 2nd is using hBN as a general purpose gun lube on the action and moving parts on I guess pistols and semi auto rifles. Wilson Combat has no opinion on whether it's good or bad, only that it might build up and cause issues. I have no opinion either.

The 3rd and the only one I(and @milanuk and @mick243 who pointed out the same diverging ideas in this thread) have an opinion on, is lubricating cases with hBN. I couldn't care less about your other applications for hBn. But lubricating cases or chambers with hBN, especially rifle cases is a bad idea. Doing it demonstrates a lack of knowledge about cartridge cases and what happens in a guns chamber when a round is fired.

But it's your face behind your gun. Do whatever you want.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Well, I successfully transferred residual hbn to my phone screen and I can say confidently, if this thing doesn't slip out of my hands and break the screen, I will be a lucky man...

I digress...

After coating all my 6.5mm brass and treating both barrels, I purchased a heavy duty tumbler and will use the detergent with the tumbling media to wash the cases after the hbn application prior to re-loading. I figure this should remove residual material but the brass is already coated - right? I ain't removin' it just by washing them prior to the reload bench.

I figure the cases will tell me if they are still lubricated at the first station.. I have confidence all will be well.

#Onward !!

 

[mick243]

no, washing your brass will not remove the HBN.

tumbling it for a week in coarse sand might...

firing with residual lube on your cases will probably (no guarantee) be fine - maybe a few thousand times even, but every shot will come with the increased risk of a bolt sized hole though your noggin.
I cannot stress this enough - deliberately firing a lubricated case is almost invariably a bad idea.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Ok, well - I am not sure I will EVER fire a "few thousand rounds" without replacing bolt/barrel (I ain't no dumbass - We all know parts wear, right?) so I figure you are saying I am good..

Right, mick?

 

[mick243]

No.

not saying “you are good” - saying that “probably “ you won’t die from a bolt through the head, but it is a possibility.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

noted

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Look, I seem to be the only one digging my ass into scholarly papers either proving your hypothesis or not. How about some of you present evidence other than your opinions.

I grow weary of the banter back and forth but would love to read a freaking paper.. say, from that US Army study? Point it out....

....dayum

 

[memilanuk]

Not sure there's a whole lot of studies on this sort of thing. Then again, Courtney has done papers on stranger things...

That said, I happened to come across this while looking for something else... so hopefully it's of use to you:

Rifle Chamber Finish & Friction Effects on Bolt Load and Case Head Thinning. FEA Calculations done with LS-DYNA

It goes over some interesting things... the effects of too *rough* of a chamber finish, as well as too smooth and/or lubricated. The latter segments, under 'Very Low Friction' and/or 'Polished and Lubricated' are probably what you're looking for.

"Very low Coefficients of Friction of 0.01 to 0.11 are very difficult to obtain without extremely polished surfaces and grease. These two cases were calculated to complete the range of numbers and are not practical in the real world. Note that when there is extremely low friction not only does the bolt face load increase but the plastic strain in the case head also increases. There needs to be some axial tension in the wall of brass case wall to increase the resistance to yielding and formation of plastic strain."

and from later in the article, in a summary table referring to friction coefficients:

"Probably not possible: Polished chamber, polished brass with oil or grease."

and

"Friction this low is probably not physically possible and could be dangerous."

About the only redeeming trait seems to be in between those two points he notes that:

"Very low friction and shows the least plastic strain leading to case head thinning."

Given what lays on either side of that by a very thin margin... I don't personally feel it's worth the risk. The increased loading on the bolt is not as severe as I would have expected, but the risk of case failure - which *is* effectively the gasket between 50-60k psi and your face - does go up noticeably.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Look, I seem to be the only one digging my ass into scholarly papers either proving your hypothesis or not. How about some of you present evidence other than your opinions.

I grow weary of the banter back and forth but would love to read a freaking paper.. say, from that US Army study? Point it out....

....dayum

You're not digging hard enough.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1006032.pdf

You want page 60. Its a massive file, grab a coffee and give it a minute to load.

BLUF for those that don't want to wait on an 80GB file on an army server - lube in the chamber decreases case seal, places more pressure on the bolt face, and induces case head separations on an m249 (because of bolt geometry).

Is it the same for a bolt gun with different chamber geometry and case support? Yes and No. But would I lube cases? Hell no. I want a full gas seal for performance as well as safety. You don't hold the buttstock in front of your shoulder and let it take a running start when you fire, do you?

 

[3-0-hate]

80gigs on ~250k/sec?

You weren't kidding about going and getting a cup of coffee... sheesh!

 

[memilanuk]

More like 80 megabytes (84, actually) but on that slow-a$$ server, might as well be 80 GB.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Finally, some reasonable engagement with research backing thoughts. I read it in 10 minutes [syc]...

I might point out I am NOT dealing with an M249 and that type of cyclical rate. I get yelled at by my local range if I take more than 1 shot every 3 seconds. C'mon, gentlemen - let's compare apples to apples here.

I cannot go back, ladies and gents. what is done is done.

Now, I go collect my own data and make determinations. Thanks for all the input.

Keep in mind, gentlemen, each time we pull the trigger there is inherent risk involved.... I don't care what product you use.

I'm out!

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I do not understand - what does cyclic rate have to do with increased bolt face loading due to reduced friction in the chamber?

I fear you may have gotten the wrong take away. Since you seem set, you do you boo boo- but don't come back here recommending new reloaders coat their brass in HBN when you've been provided multiple analyses that show it is a poor idea.

Finally, I don't want to detract from the original discussion of coating only bullets in HBN, which may have some merit based on application.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

I get it. Cases need the pressure in the chamber... hbn coating bullets/barrel ok, brass NOT ok.

I am not sure when this went awry but most of this conversation has been theoretical - only recently has actual studies have been provided.

Frankly, T-Rex, I don't see how I have suggested ANYTHING in this forum, nor would I suggest ANTYHING to a new reloader and frankly, I am offended by your response. I want to say more but am biting my tongue - something about forum etiquette.

I do do me, boo-boo. No matter what I decide, I didn't learn anything from you, Karen.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

an interesting read..

HBN: A Dry Lubricant for Rifle Barrels

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

"Look, I was gonna go easy on you and not to hurt your feelings
But I'm only going to get this one chance
Something's wrong, I can feel it (Six minutes, Slim Shady, you're on)
Just a feeling I've got, like something's about to happen, but I don't know what
If that means, what I think it means, we're in trouble, big trouble,
And if he is as bananas as you say, I'm not taking any chances"
" - Eminem, Rap God

..mic drop? So, with my new REBEL17 Tumbler, using guntap Stainless Steel Tumbling Media + Brass Shine Powdered Detergent and Dawn dishwashing liquid for about 2 hours, SOMETHING is coming off the brass. Ironically, it is gray and sticks to my fingers. hbn? The cases don't feel the same as they did after treating my cartridges with the hbn. I have 1k+ rounds here - I am going for it. Wish me luck!!

BTW, that REBEL17 is REALLY NICE!!! Beautifully designed, relatively quiet, a powerhouse that doesn't get bogged down like the Franklin Arsenal tumbler does. The FA is my hbn tank now.

https://www.scielo.br/pdf/mr/v16n6/aop_matres1834.pdf

Materials Research, Preparation of PMMA/hBN Composite Coatings for Metal Surface Protection, 2013; 16(6): 1366-1372
DDOI: 10.1590/S1516-14392013005000140

 

[SmokyJoe]

I need to clarify when I say 'bullets', I am referring to the cases only. Technically, I am coating my brass only at this point...

Using Hbn on projectiles or in the bore (not the chamber) = OK, with potential for real benefit. For bore coating, using 0.5 micron HbN, at a ratio of 2 tablespoons per 16oz of 99% isopropyl alcohol. Soak a bore mop with the solution and swab a completely clean, broken-in, barrel twice. Wait for it to dry then push a couple of clean dry patches through to remove any excess. Your first round may exhibit increased velocity, so don’t use a hot rod to start off. For projectiles, tumble in 2.5 micron Hbn. Wipe off excess.

Using HbN to coat or lubricate your brass = NOT a good idea. You do not want your brass being slick in the chamber. Breechface thrust pressure is not something you want to increase. If you do this,...wear eye pro, don’t shoot near anyone else, and may the gods smile upon your one-eyed, three fingered self. In fact, since Hbn may be near impossible to remove from your brass, it might be a good idea to set aside the brass you have coated until you can confirm that there is a viable method for removing the Hbn coating.

 

[memilanuk]

Using HbN to coat or lubricate your brass = NOT a good idea.

Yeah... he doesn't want to hear that. Read up the thread a bit

 

[acudaowner]

if you try it you could please write back on your findings if you see any good or bad I still wonder why the one video why the guy washes the bullets then touches them with his bare hands I have seen people putting tiny drops of oil on there first few rounds good luck and best wishes .
not sure if this is the same idea or not but it was larry potterfield so here .
thank you again for the post can't wait to try this idea on a new barrel when I get to that point .

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Just a quick update I noticed after finding fresh brass still loaded and cleaning them...

this brass does NOT flow through the AP Press same as the hbn treated cases (so smooth). I have to assume there is no longer transference to the cases.

 

[BlackOpsEnt]

Old Salt, I will only post my thoughts but as I previously mentioned, this is, by NO MEANS, I am recommending anything.

Your videos are interesting.

 

[BadKarmaIII]

I've chatted with Noel Calkins many times when I worked at an LGS near Kirtland.
Interesting, smart guy and his work with HBN is compelling.

 

[acudaowner]

picked up a bit of it to try only bad part is will have to try with an old barrel so not sure if that will protect and hold it last longer when Its close enough to probably need replacing . but If I can somehow get another 2k rounds out the barrel to me that would be great if not the barrel has already exceeded all my expectations .

 

[J McGriddle]

I picked up 1000 coated DTACs and some "TBN" powder from D Tubb. I'm starting with a new Proof SS 6CM barrel. This is my first experience with bullet coatings so I'm learning as I go.

The plan is to shoot 50-100 SMKs tumbled in the HBN and then start load development with the DTACs.

For tumbling, I'm using an old 1lb. canister of Hodgdon powder and a Frankford Arsenal rotary tumbler. I packed the tumbler with shop towels and placed the canister in the center. Bullets were tumbled for 1 hour.

 

[NamibHunter]

picked up a bit of it to try only bad part is will have to try with an old barrel so not sure if that will protect and hold it last longer when Its close enough to probably need replacing . but If I can somehow get another 2k rounds out the barrel to me that would be great if not the barrel has already exceeded all my expectations .

In a similar situation: 6.5 CM barrel with 1500 rounds on it, cleaned it multiple times with Wipe Out, but still have some very hard to remove carbon streaks in there, and about to try HBN.

Coated a box of bullets with the Tubb TBN powder. Different batches had way different color, from nearly white to almost invisible, not sure why. Bullets are very slippery to handle, so friction is clearly way less than before, regardless of color.

Called the Tubb support line and they were very friendly: They don’t ship BB shot with the plastic bottle anymore, apparently it is not needed. Also the tech did not recommend coating the barrel with a mixture of alchohol and HBN, “just shoot 50 cheap bullets, and then the barrel will be seasoned”. Fair enough.

Next question to the tech: How clean do you need to get a used barrel before you start? “As clean as you can get it sir”! So how clean is that?? I would need JB Bore Paste if i really want to scrub this barrel down to almost bare metal. Not too keen on JB as the lands will get rounded i presume.

Any advice based on real world experience would be much appreciated.

 

[427Cobra]

NambiHunter, if you are really concerned with getting your barrel uber clean before using HbN, get a chamber plug from Sinclair, fill the barrel up with Kroil, put ear plug in the muzzle and let it sit over night, next day scrub it with a brush and patch it dry. As for coating bullets with HbN, I highly recommend wearing a paint respirator when separating the bullets from the BB's, I used to polish off the excess HbN(powdered donut effect) with a old USGI Wool Shock, while wearing the paint respirator, after that its not needed, some people recommend burnishing into the barrel HbN mixed in 90% alcohol, I never did.

 

[NamibHunter]

NambiHunter, if you are really concerned with getting your barrel uber clean before using HbN, get a chamber plug from Sinclair, fill the barrel up with Kroil, put ear plug in the muzzle and let it sit over night, next day scrub it with a brush and patch it dry. As for coating bullets with HbN, I highly recommend wearing a paint respirator when separating the bullets from the BB's, I used to polish off the excess HbN(powdered donut effect) with a old USGI Wool Shock, while wearing the paint respirator, after that its not needed, some people recommend burnishing into the barrel HbN mixed in 90% alcohol, I never did.

@427Cobra:
Thank you for the advice sir! Much appreciated.

I have before left Hoppes Nr 9 in a chrome moly steel barrel for days, and it cleaned up well, and saw no damage from doing that.

This rifle has a stainless steel barrel, presume there is not any risk of damage from leaving Kroil is in there for a while. Kroil is an oil based solvent it seems, to dissolve carbon, so ammonia free i believe, but i have not used it before...

 

[NamibHunter]

Update:

Loaded 50 HBN coated 144 Berger Hybrids using my prior load recipe of 41.6 gn of H4350 in Lapua brass. Never shot anything but ‘naked’ bullets through this barrel, around 1,800 rounds in total so far. Cleaned the barrel as best i could, but some stubborn carbon streaks remained. Then ran a wet patch with 91% Isopropyl Alchohol plus HBN powder (in slurry form) twice through the barrel, followed by three dry patches to remove the excess. Bullets were very well coated, in a vibratory tumbler in the small Tubb plastic bottle, 70% filled with bullets plus one measure of powder, exactly as the instructions say. The bullets came out very well coated, almost have a dull milky color, and are very well coated. Tumbler has a transparent lid, and putting it in direct sunlight keeps the contents lukewarm.

The H4350 accuracy load normally leaves the barrel at 2690 fps, probably 80 fps away from max pressure, but this is where the widest node was found. This is a 26” barrel. Cold bore shot was very slow: 2580 fps, around 110 fps slower than an uncoated bullet. The second shot was 2920 fps, and it quickly got up to 2920-2950, with an ES of 45 fps, so initially lots of variability, but not a huge speed loss. Took around 35 - 45 rounds for speed to stabilize at an average of 2635 with ES around 32 fps, similar to before. So lost around 60 fps in speed, once the barrel was mostly “seasoned”. Adding 0.8 gn of H4350 got it back to the same speed i had before, and accuracy was similar (0.4”).

Then wanted to see what was possible in terms of speed: Did not clean the barrel, so still “seasoned”. Switched to RL-17, started 1.0 grain lower than my normal safe load and worked up in 0.4 gn increments. I won’t publish the load (my chamber is min spec, so not much use to others), but half moon ejector imprint arrived only at 2960 fps and full moon ejector mark at about 3000 fps (medium hard bolt lift, plus some moderate primer cratering). Lapua case expanded 0.2 thou at the base, so too hard on the brass and clearly over-pressure.

Backed off 1.8 gn from this max safe powder charge and loaded a 5 round per charge ladder test in smaller 0.3 gn increments. Found a ‘node’ with best SD of 2.3 and ES of 5 (for the 5 rounds), but SD was low for a range of 0.9 gn. [I realize the large sample stats will be higher, and there was some degree of luck involved here.]. Group size before optimizing seating depth was roughly around 1” at 200 yards. So looks like a nice wide node with good accuracy potential. Next we shall try the tuner and leave COAL at 2.8” so it can feed from the mag. Not planning to optimize seating depth.

My conclusion was that 2920 fps was a very safe max load for Texas spring time conditions (80 deg F) for my rifle. Your rifle will be different so start low and work up. Mid summer (100 deg F plus) will require a lower load, since RL-17 is rather temperature sensitive. That is an issue, so not recommending RL-17. Just reporting what i found.

HBN max safe load is well over one gn higher than before, and max speed is probably up by 80 fps - or a bit more. This might well be rifle dependent. [Lands on my rifle have moved forward quite a lot since i last shot RL-17 when new, so exact comparisons are difficult.]

In summary: HBN worked out well for me. Result is similar to upgrading from a 26” barrel to a 29 or 30” barrel - without having to deal with such an uncomfortably long heavy rifle. Almost a caliber upgrade (approaching 6.5x284 performance). No idea yet what HBN at such lofty speeds will do to my barrel life...

Btw my cold bore shot is “in the group” now. Speed is within 20-25 fps of average. That helps a lot for long range hunting. And helps the confidence of the hunter when taking longer shots are unavoidable.

Your results will probably be different. And you may need to switch powders to optimize your potential.

 

[NamibHunter]

Tumbled for 2.5 hours, after wiping off the excess. The tumbler was running on a timer:

Have subsequently tried to coat 1/3 of a bottle, and it came out way different (very light coating). You do seem to ALWAYS have to keep the amount of bullets at 70% of the available volume. Better to mix 120s and 144s to fill the bottle to 70% and then separating them afterwards, compared to running a half empty batch when you get to the last few bullets in a box.

Got best results during the daytime with the tumbler with its transparent lid in direct sunshine all the time, with no BBs. It got fairly warm in there.

A batch run for 9 hours overnight did not come out right (patchy coverage). Either run for too long, or it was too cold, or both, not sure. [It seems you actually have to follow David Tubb’s instructions!]

 

[SmokyJoe]

Btw my cold bore shot is “in the group” now. That helps a lot for long range hunting.

This is the primarily why I take the time to work with HbN. Cold bore is in the group.

 

[NamibHunter]

This is the primarily why I take the time to work with HbN. Cold bore is in the group.

Agreed.

I am also hoping that cleaning intervals will increase, to hopefully 300-400 rounds. Have not used HBN long enough to have a feel for it, but most folks are reporting cleaning is way easier, and they can go for much longer without cleaning.

Have you seen the same?

 

[SmokyJoe]

Not sure about intervals yet but when I do clean it goes quickly, ie, not much to show on the patches. That could be from a nicely lapped barrel as well.

 

[NamibHunter]

Just a quick update I noticed after finding fresh brass still loaded and cleaning them...

this brass does NOT flow through the AP Press same as the hbn treated cases (so smooth). I have to assume there is no longer transference to the cases.

You are probably already set, but if you like, you can easily remove any undesirable residual coating (even hard burnt-on carbon streaks) with a fine 3M scouring pad.

Cases fired at low pressure like fire forming new cases, or using starting loads tend to leave carbon on the case shoulder, and sometimes even the case body. Sometimes it wipes off with a cloth, but can occasionally be hard to remove. I wet the scouring pad with Ballistol.

Just chuck the cases in something like this K&M power adapter/case holder, use a drill to spin them for 20 seconds each or so, and hold the scouring pad between thumb and forefinger against the outside of the case body, shoulder and neck. [It is meant for case neck turning, a BR trick not needed in most instances.]

Case holder:

Sanding/scouring pad:

 

[NamibHunter]

Update: Got an SD of 7 fps from firing 35 rounds of HBN coated 144 Berger Hybrids at 2960 fps via RL-17, 26” MPA barrel. Five shot load development gave an SD of 2.6 to 6.7 fps for the three groups in this powder region. Five rounds per group. ES in the high 20’s. Nice wide node. Loaded to 0.04 gn accuracy (two kernels) via an FX120 scale plus autotrickler, Lapua brass, CCI-450 primers.

I think 2960 fps is a little too fast for my rifle. All except two cases did not show ejector marks (two did, perhaps there were oily fingerprints on these two case?), but all had primer craters that were getting a little excessive.

Will back off 0.3 or maybe 0.4 gn. As summer progress, will have to back off even more. For now the idea is to aim for 2930 fps. [BTW: A 24” barrel will likely do 2870 - 2890 fps. Your rifle will be different, so start low and work up.]

I wish i wish i wish Alliant will introduce a temperature stabilized form of RL-17....

 

[NamibHunter]

Update: Got an SD of 7 fps from firing 35 rounds of HBN coated 144 Berger Hybrids at 2960 fps via RL-17, 26” MPA barrel. Five shot load development gave an SD of 2.6 to 6.7 fps for the three groups in this powder region. Five rounds per group. ES in the high 20’s. Nice wide node. Loaded to 0.04 gn accuracy (two kernels) via an FX120 scale plus autotrickler, Lapua brass, CCI-450 primers.

I think 2960 fps is a little too fast for my rifle. All except two cases did not show ejector marks (two did, perhaps there were oily fingerprints on these two case?), but all had primer craters that were getting a little excessive.

Will back off 0.3 or maybe 0.4 gn. As summer progress, will have to back off even more. For now the idea is to aim for 2930 fps. [BTW: A 24” barrel will likely do 2870 - 2890 fps. Your rifle will be different, so start low and work up.]

I wish i wish i wish Alliant will introduce a temperature stabilized form of RL-17....

And now i cannot find the 144 Bergers anywhere...

 

[Daherc]

Is anyone seeing a gain in their BC? I just started using hBN on 300gr Berger Hybrid OTM .338's. I am shooting in an ELR match on Saturday, and I have not had a chance to check dope and see what an actual BC gain is.