Hidden Gems

[jmar]

There's something special to me about guns and gear that get used by militaries elites. In the media we usually only see typical contenders like the M40, M24, M110, M82, etc. So I'm curious if any of you guys have pictures or stories of some of the more unique rifles used past or present. I started wondering about this topic when learning about the existence of groups like HTI teams who engage from ELR distances. Surely they can't be using a standard Barrett right? If I was in their role doing an extremely critical job I would want something like a CheyTac M200, or DT HTI, or a TAC-50.

Also I have heard that groups like SEALs can pick and choose their gear, however issued guns like the MK13 go against that premise. Can they actually and if so what are some of their choices? It's no sniper rifle but I heard G19's are a preferred sidearm to them. Sorry for forgetting your name but I remember a guy on here sharing that he used a PSG1, very cool. Sadly there's just not as much info on this subject as I'd wish out there, I remember reading articles about SAS snipers using the M200 but couldn't find a single bit of evidence after hours of searching.

 

[sandwarrior]

jmar,

There are a number of individual arms that the more "elite" you get you can use. In the Rangers, we were allowed "standard issue" of the day which was M16A1, M60(A1({?}...I believe) CAR-15 for leaders or special use. MP5SD for CQB/building clearing (not commonly issued for training) and M21's for our sniper rifles. 9mm hadn't become official yet, but we had two Hi-powers and two High Standard HD's in our arms room.

Although we didn't get to use all the high speed stuff, SF, Delta and especially the SEALs that we worked with DID get a lot of cool stuff. Or interesting. In 1983 we worked with the SEALs doing their security and a couple of them had .44 Mag. wheel guns. In that op we also saw what was then called the Rem 700/300. Which we now call a Mk 13. At the time we didn't know what it was called and we never got to identify it was a .300 Win Mag.

We did see M40A1's with the Marines. And, in the early '80's when I was in I saw Marines attached as snipers to SEAL teams and they carried m40A1's with the Unertl scopes. Our guys who went through their course used them in training too.

One thing that wasn't recognized at the time was a worked over 1911 didn't look all that different from an issued one. Except that the finish was far better. But, they shot a whole lot better.

From what I understand, the SAS used the Parker Hale's M82, M85, M86(?) and M87 as a sniper rifle. I'd be jealous, except they were in 7.62x51 NATO, I understood. Which is funny as the L42A1 wihich still used the .303 Brit actually had better range than the 7.62x51 (even the 173 gr. match). I've never seen any British soldiers with these weapons except in film. It was just what we heard at the time.

Kind of a strange juxtaposition was that in the Rangers, we used a minimal number of weapon types. When I went up to Bragg for a while, the SF guys would jump on any weapon and practice with it as much as they could. Leadership in the Rangers told us to put that shit down and train with what we got. A couple weeks a year we got to cross-train on Soviet bloc weapons.

Added: It's not just the cool weapons, it's the ammo they shot and what came with them. We made what I thought were huge strides in night vision. But, what we had then wouldn't hold a candle to what's out there today. Thermal imaging was a pipe dream in my day. It's like standard issue today.

Much better ammunition and chambers now for sniper rifles. And, of course, it's taken years to figure out, in the military, what works and specifically why it works/doesn't work over time, like the M14/M21/M25.

 

[buffalowinter]

Back in the 90's, we in 10th SFG(A) used both the standard M21 system (which 10th developed) but also had the PSG-1 and the Romanian FPK (this is what we called it, there has been some discourse on the nomenclature). We had an incredible arms room with suppressed STEN's , UZI's, WWII MP40's, Swedish K's, Danish Madsen m-50 "clamshell" smg's, Romanian AK-47 folders (enough for everyone), and European hunting/sporting rifles, to name but a few.

Range Training...suppressed Sten's, Ak-47, PSG-1, MP-40, Uzi, M60, Swedish "K", and a 2 1/2 full of ammo. Note the house sized Lowe Alpine Rucksacks in the background.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/aTzuDeIl.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Romanian AK-47 folder, CIA procured
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/nU5sMbfl.jpg"}[/IMG2]

M16-A2 with Bushnell 3-9x scope
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/adzoTYwl.jpg"}[/IMG2]

M249 SAW, very early version
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/u6SGZpRl.jpg"}[/IMG2]

MP5SD, M16A2, M203
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/21ToMbel.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Check out the December issue of The American Rifleman...

 

[sandwarrior]

Back in the 90's, ....
M249 SAW, very early version
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/u6SGZpRl.jpg"}[/IMG2]

I had forgotten to mention these. I don't remember our guys carrying these in the field yet, which would be halfway through 1985 for me. But, we field tested these in the fall of 1984 down in Honduras.

 

[jmar]

Thank you for the replies guys, very insightful information and absolutely incredible photos. I completely overlooked the M21, How did you guys like them? And the MP5SD too, I see that gun mentioned a lot among various groups how did it work for you guys?

sandwarrior, Interesting insight about the rangers, I'm surprised you guys didn't get more goodies to play with there was no mention of a bolt gun. Was this just before the value of having one was appreciated?

And buffalowinter, maybe it's just because I'm rusty on my history but is there a specific reason almost all mentioned guns were eastern European? I guess I'd assume it's because of the ease of obtaining them, or the ease of doing so discretely. Was there a preference for them vs the american made firearms? Again thanks for the replies and photos.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

To answer the original question, in terms of how it is now, yes there is still quite a bit of leeway. How much depends on who you are and where you play. In the upper tiers like CAG and DEV they tend to get a lot of atypical missions and thus this dives innovation and procurement of atypical support and solutions. Both CAG and DEV have been known to deploy with non-issued, but off the shelf platforms and calibers. When it comes to the regular SEAL teams and SF Groups that leeway still exist but to a much lesser extent in terms of support. It's not uncommon to see SF or SEAL snipers modify issued rifles and or optics to better fit mission profiles but the support for that is mostly at an individual level. I have seen individuals at the SF Group deploy with non issued platforms such as OBRs or other personal weapons but its pretty rare.

The fact is these days at our inventory is pretty adequate for the mission which has become will defined, so you don't see a ton of the wall shit. Interestingly though if you look at many of the platforms that have become mainstream, M2010, M110, M17, M4, M203, M320, etc all have there roots based in systems that the Special Operations community developed.

 

[sandwarrior]

jmar,

Regarding the MP5SD: a phrase comes to mind..."naked and afraid" was how I felt packing a 9mm suppressed sub-machinegun into combat. My nickname for it was the nine pound BB-gun..That said, it's earned a pretty great reputation by people much more qualified than me. For CQB, I still preferred one of the dolled up 1911's we had in the arms room. And, where we were in Grenada, it was definitely lacking in the ranges of engagement outside of what would be CQB.

When I was in we only had the M21 which in our case had the ART II scope. I didn't pack or shoot one. But, I did run the sniper training that we did at the 1st BN in '84-'85. To be clear on that I ran the training, as in logistical support, I did not teach them sniping, or the use of their weapons. After one miserable performance, I suggested we adopt a bolt action rifle like the Marines. It was made clear that wasn't going to happen. Three years after I got out, the U.S. Army adopted the M24 (1988).

The truth of that training failure was not the rifles fault. It was giving the sniper team leader too much lattitude to do things the wrong way. And of course, also expecting the impossible to be done. My boss wanted them shooting at 800 yds with the primitive night vision we had back then. They couldn't even hit at 350 yds. The team leader selected a number of non-qualified people to go on this mission. You guessed it, it's not a five minute briefing on how it's done. So, why'd we waste money and slots on guys that didn't get to go on this one?...hint: rhetorical question.

Interesting thing was how Buffalo describes their arms room. It was like that at Bragg, too. And if nothing was going on, they litterally drew straws or threw the dice and that's what they trained on all day! I got to see that when i went to Scuba school...and make myself useful.

 

[jmar]

Once again thanks for the replies, didn't get very many total but I think with the variance and detail posted I got most my answers. It seems that from the 90's to now we really got our stuff together. The US currently has what like 5+ issued bolt actions? Ranging from .308 to .338 LM, plus the Barrett as the cherry on top of the cake. I do however still see a spot missing for a high caliber bolt gun, but then again who how am I to judge that. I just see the TAC-50 consistently working well for our Canadian cousins up north. I did forget about the MSR/ MK21 PSR when I originally made my post, I guess it could fill the roll but I recently read that it is not performing well and may be replaced.

As for what HTI teams use is still a mystery, but maybe I just have an unreal expectation of what they are in the first place, I couldn't even find info on what "HTI" teams are /do, all I know that got me interested in the first place is from a youtube video where it said they shoot targets at ELR distances with .50 cals and it got my interest haha. Also that Desert Tech has a gun made for that purpose and named it thus so, that apparently was developed for the military. But it's highly possible its a military from some less developed country somewhere in Europe or something. Every picture I've seen of a DT HTI in "combat" use looks like scripted marketing shots, the very HD camera and perfect framing is the give away. There is this book: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-50-Caliber-Sniper-Course-Interdiction/dp/1581600682 but I just can't shill out $200+ for a book. One of the reasons for this thread is I like to study weapon design and I'm always thinking on what can be improved, but also just curious in general. One day I'd like to develop some ".50 magnum" type cartridge and rifle for shots 4000-5000 yards+. It's interesting about how that ties into what you said sandwarrior with the tribulations you talk about with some of the gear and weapons you experienced. Same thing seems to still be going on with many complaints about needing an intermediate cartridge update from the 5.56. And lesser so the MSR/PSR being dropped already, leaving really nothing too interesting on the table for snipers among many other things.

From what you guys say I guess it just depends on who it is or the task at hand, it seems like there's a certain point up the totem pole where you can have a say in your gear, but may not even be necessary depending on the available in house selection. I wonder if the 20+ years that have gone buy since the times talked about in this thread rules have gotten more strict/lenient. Rudy, thanks for chiming in too, it further backs up the conclusion I was coming to. I just read through the Mk13 Mod 0 stock thread again for an upcoming subject and it has some insight from one of the gunsmiths who built the Mk13s. In the thread it talked a few times about how the Mk13 were occasionally modded with things like suppressors but were still generally the guns the SEAL's got.

 

[Random Guy]

This link has some nice artist renditions of sniper rifles used by various members of the US military over the past couple of decades:
http://www.dogfightink.com/rifles.html

I completely overlooked the M21,

I wrote a long thread on the various "Product Improved" M21 rifles used from the late 1980s and 1990s by US Army SF, US Navy SEALs, and USMC FAST company for DMRs. (These are are all "Post-M21" rifles and were typically used by SF, SEALs or special USMC units at that time.
Not a lot of good documentation exists in one place, hence the long post, but you might find it interesting:
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...per-dmr-rifles

Also I have heard that groups like SEALs can pick and choose their gear, however issued guns like the MK13 go against that premise. Can they actually and if so what are some of their choices? I

The more correct statement is that SEAL teams develop a mission requirements document that gets handed over to the Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC) small arms engineering department and they then proceed to design, test and if successful, ultimately provide the SEAL teams with interesting gear to meet the defined mission requirements. That's how the Mk13 Mod 0/1/3/5 came about, the various Mk 12 SPRs, the various Mk 14 Mod 0/1/2s, and many other small quantity weapon platforms. As shown on the first link ("dogfightlink"), lots of permutations have come out the Navy's NSWC facility at Crane to support SEAL teams.

One day I'd like to develop some ".50 magnum" type cartridge and rifle for shots 4000-5000 yards+

Sounds like a job for a 20mm cannon to me...;-)

 

[sirhrmechanic]

The more correct statement is that SEAL teams develop a mission requirements document that gets handed over to the Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC) small arms engineering department and they then proceed to design, test and if successful, ultimately provide the SEAL teams with interesting gear to meet the defined mission requirements. That's how the Mk13 Mod 0/1/3/5 came about, the various Mk 12 SPRs, the various Mk 14 Mod 0/1/2s, and many other small quantity weapon platforms. As shown on the first link ("dogfightlink"), lots of permutations have come out the Navy's NSWC facility at Crane to support SEAL teams.

This was backed up by Alan Brown, the Crane gunsmith that built a lot of the sniper rifles and other toys at Crane. I spent a couple of days with Alan last summer out at Crane (he'es retired... but still haunts the place on occasion.) He said that 'variation from standard... whether scopes or rifles or pistols, etc... was done a lot less than folks think. Was it done? Yes. Some. But mostly, there was enough capability in the off-the-shelf gear that the team Seals had availalbe to them... that massive customization or buying of oddball stuff just wasn't needed.

As an example that I can say I know for sure... scopes. Did some Seals go out and buy their own U.S. Optics scopes on the company credit card, so to speak? Yes. A few. Doc here on SH used to handle the special orders. But it wasn't like some kind of everyday, load up the shopping cart shopping extravaganza. Most used the scopes they were issued. Used them well. Better than well! And there was no need to go outside the inventory. Mostly. Out of several hundred active duty Seal qualified snipers over the years... yup, a few bought non-standard optics. Most did just fine with the Navy stuff. Very few bought stuff with their own money. Very, very few.

Was more likely that scopes and 'stuff' was swapped from one platform to another. Not using those Barretts? The scopes from the Barret fit great on the Mk13's.... so swap them over. Put them back on the Barrett when you need a .50. If it's in the weapons locker... it's fair game.

Realistically, the folks at the sharp end of the spear were not limited much by the 'mere standard weapons' they had. They could use them to their potential... but usually not beyond. Some customization and specialty stuff went on. But not as much as legend makes it out to be. This is from 'the horse's mouth....' so to speak!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[jmar]

I just found a "hidden gem" Was doing some Mk 13 research today and I found 3 pictures with a TAC-50 and Mk-13 together. It turns out the US does field the TAC-50 designated as the Mk 15 Mod 0. This is literally the only info I could find about the Mk 15 on the internet: http://www.americanspecialops.com/sp...iper-rifle.php

Anyone know anything about it?

 

[sandwarrior]

Somebody was talking about a double barreled machingun/rifle:

 

[sirhrmechanic]

^^^ This... and it was me!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sandwarrior]

^^^ This... and it was me!

Cheers,

Sirhr

i thought it was you, but I was too lazy to google it. So, when I saw a pic of it, I thought I'd post it.