Highly Accurate Powder Weights

Streifel

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Minuteman
Dec 9, 2011
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Hey new to the forum, and I searched a bit for this but couldn't find anything about it, so here goes:

Is there any benefit to weighing powder charges more accurately than 0.1 gr? I have access to laboratory scales that can weigh out to the nearest 0.1 milligram (about 0.0015 grain). I'm wondering if any of you have tried this before and have found that there are diminishing returns beyond a certain point. I'm sure the powder I use lacks consistency to that degree, but has anyone found that cutoff point?
I doubt I'll spend a few hours in lab weighing out powder to the nearest 10th mg, but I was just interested in seeing if it would help.

Thoughts?
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

Most people on here will agree that there are other factors and variences that play a much bigger part than weighing your powder more accuratly than .1 grains. There is a powder thrower (promethius) that is avaliable that will diespense to 1 kernal of accuracy. its spendy like 3k and there are guys that have it. but they generally arent shooting any better than guys with balance beam scales weighing to .1 grains. Runout and concentricity make a bigger difference. sort your ammo by runout, you can neck turn your brass, ream your primer pockets and flash holes, weight sort your brass, weight sort your bullets, sort your bullets by ogive length etc etc. there is all kinds of stuff people try and most of those would have potentialy the same or better results than weighing powder more acuratly than .1 grain. and most of the time, if you just shoot more and practice, you will get better results than spending all that time in the reloading room sorting...

CJG
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

I run a gen 2 prometheus and while it may not make me a better shooter it made my long range verticle dispersion much less while being the fastest method to "trickle" powder.
Based upon feedback from those that use a lab scale it may not be worth the time.
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

This subject bugs the hell out of me, please do define "accurate to .1 grain".....

Is it because that's the finest increment found on common powder scales so thus it's assumed that's as "accurate" as the scale can possibly be?

Or, is it that users of such scales fail to be precise in their use of such scales and blindly settle for some degree of +/- accuracy from there scale?

For what I term as precision shooting with my precision rifles, which may or may not be precision shooting or precision rifles by other's standards, I've always weighed out each charge of powder with a beam scale. When I settle on a load for any particular rifle, it's pretty cut and dried on the charge weight. When weighing out that charge, simple logic applies. It's one of three things, either not heavy enough, right on the mark, or too heavy, according to the scale.

Knowing the difference between the three is a simple matter of seeing if the beam pointer aligns with the mark, or not. Elementary I know, but we still have the question arise, don't we. If the beam pointer is above the mark by <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> amount the charge in the pan is too heavy; the cure, remove some powder. If the pointer is below the mark by <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> amount then the charge in the pan is too light; the cure, add more powder. If the pointer is perfectly aligned with the mark then it's a safe bet the charge in the pan is exactly what you need....load it.

"Accuracy" to .1 grain be damned...it's operator error if the scale isn't measuring precise loads. Either the damn pointer is on the mark, or it isn't. Either the fucking load is right, or it isn't.

A smart reloader will realize what induces error into the equation that can and will skew a scales results, and be vigilent in reducing or eliminating them. Dirty pivots, dust on the beam, dust/dirt in the pan, air flow in the area, magnatism of the pointer dampener, etc.

With the above addressed as routine care of my scale, I go the extra step and eliminate what a lot of people overlook, the error of improperly zeroing the scale. I'm not saying that people don't know how to zero a scale; most everyone knows the basic function of setting the beam to zero and adjusting the elevator to reach a point of "zero".

The mistake however, is just running with <span style="font-style: italic">that</span>, assuming the scale will be zero'd forever from that point; or, some will think about it mid way through a run and slide the weights back to zero readjusting if "necessary". My finding with doing it that way is that it's <span style="font-style: italic">often</span> necessary to readjust zero. With "necessary" coming from our own mistake of moving shit around and actually changing something about the scale to cause it to read a hair off from what we <span style="font-style: italic">thought</span> was "zero".

To take the error out of "checking zero", which I feel is obligatory if precision is wanted, I do it without moving any of the parts of my scale. For example, in my 30-06 with 190 SMK's I run 57.0 grains of H4350. Although my OCW load work up tells me that a +/- of nearly .5 grains on either side that 57.0 grains will still impact in an acceptable manner, I feel I owe it to myself to be as precise as possible when weighing out charges. To do that I've made an aluminum check weight, that at the time I made it weighed exactly 57.0 grains, and as long as I don't change it, it always will.

This check weight resides in the die box for that rifle and is stamped with 1/16" tall numbers/letters to identify what it is. To check the scale during process it's a simple matter of placing the weight on the scale instead of powder, and the pointer will point exactly on the mark, or still "zero'd". In fact, I don't even bother with setting my beam weights to all zero when I start. I set the scale to 57.0 grains, place the check weight in the pan, and "zero" from there with the elevator if needed.

Since I've gone to this method the "accuracy" of my charges has greatly improved and I'm no longer fighting the "zero" on the scale. I'm much more confident that what I'm weighing out is exactly what I want and +/- anything is a non worry.

What people need to understand is that the increments we are playing with here, 1 grain being 1/7000 of a pound, and .1 grain being 1/70,000 of a pound, it's very easy to get fucked up trying to get perfect out of an imperfect system. It's not hard though, to get a level of precision that can be applied to what we require. Accute attention given to the well being of the scale, taking extreme care to not jar the scale during use, using caution and care when setting the pan on the scale and taking it off, not moving a lot of shit around to check zero, and reading the pointer properly, all lend to taking the common beam scale to the limits of it's possible accuracy.

If this is something else, rediculous, like a question of whether or not an increment finer that .1 grains is better, then I'd love to meet the man who could shoot the difference......
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

I have found that in smaller cases the closer I monitor my powder charge the better. This is because a few kernel make a big different as to the same amount does in say, a 300wm compared to a 223 rem. Other words the big case has more wiggle room. Takes less pressure to do a lot in a small case
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run a gen 2 prometheus and while it may not make me a better shooter it made my long range verticle dispersion much less while being the fastest method to "trickle" powder.
Based upon feedback from those that use a lab scale it may not be worth the time.

</div></div>

Words from a man who has won his share of percision rifle matches
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

My own method for obtaining precise weights involve trickling, and my scale weighs down to .1gr increments. I seriously doubt the value of greater precision in weighing propellents; my bet is simply that once we're down to that level, some other factor then outweighs the influence of propellent weight precision.

I do make some additional effort to manage neck tension, but I also have some small doubts about how well such management succeeds.

I agree with Wade that accurate reloading largely removes it as a serious influence on inaccuracy. I also believe that once we get all the controllable variables managed, the environment can rapidly negate our efforts.

LL's advice to shutting it down, packing it up, and hitting the range has at least as much credibility as any other efforts to reduce accuracy to a science. For me, it's about allocation of limited and perishable resources. For me, time is the prime factor. I'd rather spend my time shooting than doing many other things. Not all, but many. To that end, I limit my handloading operations to as much as I deem practical, and concentrate rather diligently on getting those few right.

For some applications, I will simply load in a pregressive mode, but will take the time to accumulate ten powder drops, and average them to precisely my desired individual load before I'm satisfied that my measure is working right. For applications like service rifle, hunting, and teaching, such means result in ammo whose performance is indistinguishable, under the circumstances, from hand-weighed charges. But for LR precision shooting and the like; I do the weighing.

Greg
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

+1 what tripwire said. I have a love/hate relation with reloading, its too time consuming, but for less money I get better rounds. Its not that hard to center the pointer, I've met many people that settle for +/- a tenth, which is .2gr accuracy not .1gr and while it may have minimal effect is simply too sloppy for me, my eyes are only so precise, but on a balance scale I feel comfortable that I'm inside a .05gr range being less than 1/4 from center to next .1gr mark either way.
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 what tripwire said. I have a love/hate relation with reloading, its too time consuming, but for less money I get better rounds. Its not that hard to center the pointer, I've met many people that settle for +/- a tenth, which is .2gr accuracy not .1gr and while it may have minimal effect is simply too sloppy for me, my eyes are only so precise, but on a balance scale I feel comfortable that I'm inside a .05gr range being less than 1/4 from center to next .1gr mark either way. </div></div>

You can up your game, this way......

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Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

I can easily see a difference in a .5 grain charge in a 300Win mag case so it stands to reason a smaller increment would be noticeable in something like a 223 or 6mmbr.

A buddy of mine swears the biggest accuracy improvement he has seen was when he switched to an Acculab scale. He weighs his charges to 0.01 grains (about one granule of Varget).

He can demonstrate (on demand) a 0.10 grain increment on his 6mmbr FClass rifle. This guy does his best to shoot into the 0.10 inch class at 100 yards and shoots stupid groups at 600. Call him a bench-rester if you like, but the SOB can shoot...And I mean really shoot.

Though 0.10 grains may not be relevant to a tactical shooter, I believe the acculab scale is.
If you want all of the accuracy your rifle has I suppose you can follow the bottomless rabbit hole and go 0.01 grains like my buddy.
smile.gif


Peace
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

So what's your point? I can see a .1 grain difference too, when I step far enough outside of my accuracy node. I can also see a difference in just a few thousandths of an inch in seating depth, when fine tuning the load. Not to mention the difference a little bit of run out can make.

And I shoot nothing even remotely like a true bench rest rifle, or caliber......

I made two points above....one being that zero is easy, and zero'd is zero'd, and not being on that zero will not EVER be right if your goal is zero. Take that for what it's worth, I do.

The second being in the form of a question. Should we expect to gain anything from say searching for something in a powder weight that is finer than a .1 grain increment? Would I really see a benefit in 56.93 grains of H4350 in my '06, instead of 57.0? I seriously doubt it.

Hell, most people I know around here look at me like I have three heads when I tell them my load for my 243AI is 46.7 grains of powder. Why bother with .7, isn't .5 good enough? Well, no, it's not, .7 puts me in the middle of my accuracy node and .5 doesn't.

To each his own on this shit but it isn't rocket science, and, the laws of diminishing returns do apply........
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

Precision reloading (like precision watches and rifles) plays to my OCD. I use a laboratory scale and a redding trickler to achieve .01 grain consistency in my loads. Does it help my shooting? Probably not but I like knowing that my rounds are better than "good enough". On the other hand, what I enjoy may be sheer torture for someone else.
 
Re: Highly Accurate Powder Weights

Tripwire,

Not disagreeing with you.
When your setup is in the node there is some room for fluctuation without drastically affecting group size. To answer your question I do not think 25.74 grains will shoot better than 25.70.

What I am suggesting is my long range vertical (and overall group consistency) is tighter with the Acculab than with my 304....Which shows more consistent than my 1010 btw. Why this is I can't say for sure, but I assume it is inconsistency in the scale (operator error or not).

When loading small cartridges (for a precision bolt action) such as the 223 with Varget I can and do measure to 0.01 accuracy (as in 25.60 grains rather than 25.6). It takes only slightly more time than balancing a 1010. For something like the 30-06 that uses extruded powder I prefer the 304, but you certainly could weigh to around 0.02 grains (one granule of H-4831SC) if you wanted to.

I hope the details read well because I suck at communication, but the bottom line is I see a surprising amount of accuracy,consistency difference between the scales and I am not exactly a world class shooter:)

That said I am all ears to your suggestions.


Peace