HK SP5 or PTR 9c vs CMMG Dissent MkGs

[Chief_Rick]

First, does the PTR 9c shoot/feel the same as the HK SP5?

I'm not familiar with the SP5. I have read about it being soft-shooting and easy to control.

I'm considering making a steel challenge-type pistol/SBR. Reliability is important and the SP5 is about double the price of the PTR 9c.

The PTR 9c also has a rail already for attaching an optic.

With all that said, how would the CMMG Dissent line of pistols compare?

The Dissent uses a radial delayed blowback system and the MkGs uses Glock magazines. It also has a picatinny rail end cap for easy mounting of a brace or stock and pricing is similar to the PTR 9c.

 

[LRRPF52]

I’ve shot a lot of real MP5s, Hk94s, MP5K, MP5SD, and some imitation guns as well. My brother had a 1985 import Hk94 that he got for $892 in the late 1980s/early 1990s if I recall.

To me, I love the Hk fit/feel/finish, especially the receiver finish (electrostatic coating meant for ultimate corrosion resistance), their bolts and carriers, locking pieces, FCGs, and other parts quality.

From shooting perspective, I’ve had as much fun with an imitation MP5K, suppressed with tri-lug, MRDS, and a B&T-like brace, but I wouldn’t buy one due to my affection for the Hk attention to detail.

Of all the MP5 variants, I really like the MP5K with a tri-lug, suppressed with RDS and the B&T folder, not the silly Choate PDW crap.

But for what you’re doing, there are better modern designs at a fraction of the price that have better ergos and LRBHO.

There are at least 3 manufacturers who did their due diligence in testing various magazines on the market for these Sub-Gun looking PCCs, and they all concluded that the CZ EVO mags made by Magpul were the most reliable 9mm sub gun magazine.

So I would look at any of the designs built around the CZ EVO mags. I have no hands-on with the CMMG, though I saw them when they debuted the radial lug design at SHOT.

There’s a really cool Stribog conversion lower to the CZ mags:

The CZ EVO 9 Micro is a fun one as well.

 

[clcustom1911]

I have a PTR 9kt (mp5k clone) and I have shot an SP5k back to back.

Both had #28 locking piece. I can't tell the difference other than the SP5k was a registered machine gun with the giggle switch.

 

[rdinak]

Recently purchased an AP5. I prefer it over my AR’s in 9mm.

 

[6brshooter]

Mp5/gas operated pcc will always recoil less and have less muzzle rise than a blowback 9mm pcc. I've owned ptr and mke mp5 and mp5k, they all ran great and had zero issues. I also compared them to couple buddys hk mp5, the hk were definitely nice but the welds on my 2 ptr examples were nicer and looked like stacked dime tig welding. The mke welds weren't as nice/straight as the hk or ptr. One advantage of the ptr, to me, is the welded optic rail. If you want irons only, and traditional look, then I get the rail being ugly. On the mp5k size, that welded rail is the best option for optics that retain rear sight and doesn't bust your knuckles when charging bolt.

 

[BCP]

There are turkish MKE MP5s being imported by century right now they are made on licensed HK machinery, I think 1300bucks for an MP5k with a brace. Was gonna sell my stribog and switch to one of those but the stribog just plain runs and I've got 7 mags for it. Very accurate too clay birds at 50-100 are not much of a problem.

 

[LRRPF52]

The first time a shot a select-fire Colt 9mm SMG, I was shocked at how violent it was. Absolutely no fun to shoot compared to MP5 or any type of delayed locking 9mm SMG. It has low muzzle blast and crazy recoil from the reciprocating mass. Opposite of 5.56 where you have substantial muzzle blast but almost no recoil.

I agree on the imitation MP5s with the integral rails. They mount RDSs and MRDSs much better than the HK clamp method. I just wish the clones had that electrostatic finish vs whatever it is that they do.

These are really fun inside of cowboy towns or on plate racks and ranges that have a lot of close range steel. More of a range/training tool than anything else that kids love to shoot with.

 

[6brshooter]

Yeah, I'm not sure what finish is on my ptr, it's held up great but it's a range toy and doesn't ever see ocean spray, lol. It almost reminds me of the finish on cz 75, like a tough enamel finish.

Edited to add pics, 3k rds and finish around magwell and ejection port is still good.

 

[Chief_Rick]

These are really fun inside of cowboy towns or on plate racks and ranges that have a lot of close range steel. More of a range/training tool than anything else that kids love to shoot with.

This is all I plan on using it for. We have fun matches where we can use a PCC on our cowboy targets. I have a Ruger PC Carbine and enjoy it. Just looking for something different, but reliable.

 

[Chief_Rick]

Also started looking at the Sig MPX.

I'd like a delayed blowback action.

 

[ELCO82]

I just got an American made zenith ZF5-P in a trade and I was really impressed with it. I don't know anything about the mp5 platform, but I couldn't believe how nice it was to shoot compared to an ar9.

 

[LRRPF52]

There’s a cowboy town I use at the main range complex I prefer to shoot at, and even when they have regional Cowboy Action matches there, they can’t use all of the bays, it’s so freaking big. Has the bank, Inn, jail/sheriff’s office, corral, and a bunch of other buildings made with faux siding brick, stone, quality exterior finish, upper stories, range bag/gun prep stations, etc.

I do most of my pistol work in there day/night. The place is awesome. Been going there since 2012 at the latest.

There was a guy I linked up with to go shoot who had the MP5K set-up with tri-lug, mini suppressor, and MRDS that was a blast to hose through plate racks with.

That place is perfect for doing PCC/Subgun drills in, especially for TGT-to-TGT transitions. There’s almost too much steel in each bay. My kids love it.

 

[Chief_Rick]

We don't have very many "high dollar" guns around our cowboy shooters, except their cowboy guns.

I had the opportunity to shoot a Stribog SP9A1 pistol with brace and a PSA AR-9 10"-barrel pistol with brace this weekend.

The trigger on the Stribog was ok but the trigger on the PSA AR9 (it had been replaced with another PSA trigger) was really nice.

I had a difficult time doing multi-shot engagements and transitions on smaller plates. Maybe it was my unfamiliarity with either. Maybe it was the platforms I was shooting (direct blowback, low-cost guns). The short LOP and flimsiness of the braces couldn't have helped. I wonder how a proper stock with at least 10" LOP, or a more substantial brace, would affect handling on either?

 

[BCP]

I wonder how a proper stock with at least 10" LOP, or a more substantial brace, would affect handling on either?

Makes it a lot better. Plus you never shot them before. I still vote for an MKE MP5 though if you want a 9mm and can afford it. HK licensced tooling and the price is reasonable.

The stribog is crazy simple. Its a square block of aluminum with a barrel sticking out the end and a spring that makes it go. The HK is a whole different thing.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Zenith MP5 or MP5K clone, hands-down. I love my ZF-5P. excellent fit and finish, everything is exactly to HK spec, can use any aftermarket MP5/K parts (the SP5 that isn't always the case) and Zenith has an excellent warranty if for some reason you encounter any trouble.

I personally see the welded rails on the PTRs as a downside, since there are a lot of good mounts of various kinds for the H&K platforms, and being able to pick and choose which mounts you want for the purpose can be useful, especially if you value having mlok or rail available at the 12 o clock position on the handguard area.

 

[earthtrekker1775]

I had the Zenith and it is a very well done clone. Ultimately, it just didn't blow my hair back and there was not rail space without tacky add ons. I traded it in on a B&T APC-9 Pro and couldn't be happier. Easy, repeatable hits out to 100 yards with a red dot, full power DBAL-A3, folder, and Surefire Ryder 9 suppressor. It is one of the most fun guns I have to shoot

 

[Laseredge]

 

[6brshooter]

Zenith MP5 or MP5K clone, hands-down. I love my ZF-5P. excellent fit and finish, everything is exactly to HK spec, can use any aftermarket MP5/K parts (the SP5 that isn't always the case) and Zenith has an excellent warranty if for some reason you encounter any trouble.

I personally see the welded rails on the PTRs as a downside, since there are a lot of good mounts of various kinds for the H&K platforms, and being able to pick and choose which mounts you want for the purpose can be useful, especially if you value having mlok or rail available at the 12 o clock position on the handguard area.

I've read of some of the new zenith having function issues, the old zenith were just imported mke. Ive personally saw some claw mounts on mke that caused binding issues on carrier as the they are essentially clamping the receiver to stay put. I will take a welded rail over some 300-500$$ "good" claw mount.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I've read of some of the new zenith having function issues, the old zenith were just imported mke. Ive personally saw some claw mounts on mke that caused binding issues on carrier as the they are essentially clamping the receiver to stay put. I will take a welded rail over some 300-500$$ "good" claw mount.

the only place they clamp is the protrusions specifically designed for stanag mounts, and the clamping force is vertical, not horizontal, so there isn't any way that makes any sense.

Midwest or B&T mounts are the general go-to as a low profile option, with B&T having options designed to minimize the extra bulk and snag points for concealment on something like an MP5K.

the K style is great for a discrete PDW style, (see 9 Hole Reviews multiple videos on the topic) but for a competition gun I'd argue the regular sized MP5 is probably the better take as the recoil is slightly softer (longer travel distance for the bolt carrier and better spring rate in the recoil rod)


@Chief_Rick the only mark against the HK platform if you're wanting it for competition is the lack of a bolt hold open, if that's a big hangup, then go for the CMMG radial delay or an MPX

 

[6brshooter]

the welded block on top locates mount from sliding fwd or aft. I can't remember which mount it was but it had claws that squeezed against the 4 formed pads on receiver. They were tight enough to cause carrier drag as rifle heated up/carboned up. The b&t lo is nice when it's actually available (they weren't when I needed one for a k), and guys still complain about busted knuckles with it. I ended up replacing rear sight with a m8 industry rmr mount.

Edit: the stanag mounts do pull up but those 4 pads aren't exactly square and they are on a round shape of receiver. They pull up, but if overtightened or poor design, the claws can flex receiver in. I'm sure my buddy had mount too tight, and it was 4 yrs ago so details of mount are hazy

 

[Chief_Rick]

If I go down the MP5 rabbit-hole, are MKE and/or Zenith magazines considered quality/reliable products?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

There are turkish MKE MP5s being imported by century right now they are made on licensed HK machinery, I think 1300bucks for an MP5k with a brace. Was gonna sell my stribog and switch to one of those but the stribog just plain runs and I've got 7 mags for it. Very accurate too clay birds at 50-100 are not much of a problem.

Best deal out there by far. Zenith was importing them until they reported Turkish corruption.....and lost the contract as a result. Century took over. Keep in mind places like zenith reworked and fixed fuck ups from the factory. While they are made on hk tooling under license and have true push pin lowers, the qc in turkey sucks. It's possible to get a gun with issues...but it's still the best deal out there. I trust a gun gone through by zenith way before the monkeys at century and I have mp5s from each. 1100 for a ap5 is a steal..everyone should own a mp5 or two. I've owned all the roller lock guns and the mp5 is only one worth keeping.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If I go down the MP5 rabbit-hole, are MKE and/or Zenith magazines considered quality/reliable products?

Every bit as good as hk.

The gen 2 kci mags from Korea are pretty good too. They were a steal at 30 bucks a pop but those days are gone.

 

[SortOfClear]

Cost no problem? Beretta M12

 

[Chief_Rick]

Best deal out there by far. Zenith was importing them until they reported Turkish corruption.....and lost the contract as a result. Century took over. Keep in mind places like zenith reworked and fixed fuck ups from the factory. While they are made on hk tooling under license and have true push pin lowers, the qc in turkey sucks. It's possible to get a gun with issues...but it's still the best deal out there. I trust a gun gone through by zenith way before the monkeys at century and I have mp5s from each. 1100 for a ap5 is a steal..everyone should own a mp5 or two. I've owned all the roller lock guns and the mp5 is only one worth keeping.

How would you compare PTR?

 

[Chief_Rick]

Cost no problem? Beretta M12

If cost were not a problem, I wouldn't be shopping for semi-auto clones.

 

[BCP]

How would you compare PTR?

I wouldn't buy PTR when you can get an HK clone from HK tooling even if it's Turkish.

TBH the Turkish stuff right now is a screaming deal, i've got a couple of the 1911s and there was a blowout sale on the hipowers for 300$ not too long ago. I've got a real belgian HP in the box but I'll shoot the turkish one and bang it around instead.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

How would you compare PTR?

Ones built on hk tooling and one is us made. Much like AKs....us made suck compared to the real thing. The cost of the machinery required is already subsidized by the countries weapon industry and a US company can't compete with that. There are boutique and custom builders who are amazing but you are looking at 4-6k price point, not $1500

 

[6brshooter]

Pretty sure ptr bought hk91 tooling and machines early on, they've been making roller locks for a good while. Also, let's not make it sound like hk engineers are strolling around at mke advising. Hk got them up to speed way back, they've been on their own for awhile. Also, if you want to run a giggle switch, the ptr are easier to convert since they are us made. Truth be told, I've had zero issues with my 2 ptr and 2 mke, but I'm down to just the 1 full size ptr mp5. Both ptr had better triggers, finish, and welds than my 2 mke. The mke won't have the latest Rev f hk parts, neither will ptr, but don't fall in the "war gun factory, hk tooling" fallacy.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Mke is the state owned manufacture of everything from pistols to artillery. They arm the Turkish as well as many armed forces.

They were more hk than hk until they realized one was buying their overpriced shit for 3500 bucks without modern features so they started rolling out with them. They didn't even have a paddle mag release. True push pin...fa parts drop in including carriers if you knock out the welds. Very easy to convert to FA buying surplus parts. So easy ATF almost didn't approve their import.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I've got.... 24 30rd zenith mags sitting behind me that all work 100%. the magpul drums are good to have one for a laugh, and the KCI 15s and 20s for when you want something to shorten the vertical profile of the gun (20rd is the same length as the grip)

The Franklin binary triggers are fun, and not bad in the MP5 iteration. it's on you to decide if the asking price for entry on those is too high or not. Having shot a few different FA MP5/Ks I'd say the thing to consider is it gets you 80% of the way there for less than 2% of the cost of a transferable receiver or sear.

edit: as far as Zenith vs MKE vs PTR, I'd go with zenith or PTR since both have warranties you can actually leverage, and zenith is closer to true original HK spec on tolerances and parts

 

[6brshooter]

Mke is the state owned manufacture of everything from pistols to artillery. They arm the Turkish as well as many armed forces.

They were more hk than hk until they realized one was buying their overpriced shit for 3500 bucks without modern features so they started rolling out with them. They didn't even have a paddle mag release. True push pin...fa parts drop in including carriers if you knock out the welds. Very easy to convert to FA buying surplus parts. So easy ATF almost didn't approve their import.

just knock that weld out, lol. It's a bit more than brazed in place. That bar has to be machined out, they didn't get to import them with a fa blocking bar that is super easy to remove. We are a bit in weeds here as most guys don't have a 50k auto pack laying around. Your chances of getting a bad ptr or mke are equal, deal with American co or use century(lmao) to send it back to a muzzy country for warranty repair(fuck our enemies).

 

[Chief_Rick]

I won't say I don't have a desire to go full auto, but I definitely don't have the funds.

That said, all I would potentially want to do is SBR it and suppress it as funds permit.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Any of the suggested platforms are easy to do both with. But the MP5 with a non-welded rail has the advantage of allowing you to pick your look from 1980s SAS to 1990s Swat to modern Executive Protection all with a few push pins and some part swaps

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I've got.... 24 30rd zenith mags sitting behind me that all work 100%. the magpul drums are good to have one for a laugh, and the KCI 15s and 20s for when you want something to shorten the vertical profile of the gun (20rd is the same length as the grip)

The Franklin binary triggers are fun, and not bad in the MP5 iteration. it's on you to decide if the asking price for entry on those is too high or not. Having shot a few different FA MP5/Ks I'd say the thing to consider is it gets you 80% of the way there for less than 2% of the cost of a transferable receiver or sear.

edit: as far as Zenith vs MKE vs PTR, I'd go with zenith or PTR since both have warranties you can actually leverage, and zenith is closer to true original HK spec on tolerances and parts

I bought 10 of the mp5 drums before moving back to east coast. Only played with one so far but they are awesome.

I wish binary triggers were legal here. A suppressed mp5 with binary is an awesome little gun.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Have any of you guys done the lee lower conversion? Let's you run ar triggers and saftey selector? 2 biggest drawbacks of mp5 is shitty SEF lowers and mp5 triggers. Fixes both.

leesporting

leesporting

leesporting.com

 

[Chief_Rick]

Just checked my local fun counter:
HK SP5 - $2999 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9CT-CL - $1890 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9C - $1765 (3- lug barrel, welded rail, 2 mags)
Zenith ZF-5 - $1699 (threaded 3- lug barrel, claw mount rail, 3 mags)

Thoughts?

 

[Texascbr]

I’ve had original MP5 machine guns when I had an SOT, owned and still own some of the 80s HK MP5 hosts for my sear and even own the latest SP5. That being said, when wanting to shoot an MP5 I generally use my PTR which runs as good as any of them. Is the original the best, yes. However, PTR is the ticket for value proposition. Get a PTR, toss in an 80 degree locking piece, check your bolt gap and you’re done. If you have an issue PTR will fix it. Of course I’ve never had to have one repaired.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Just checked my local fun counter:
HK SP5 - $2999 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9CT-CL - $1890 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9C - $1765 (3- lug barrel, welded rail, 2 mags)
Zenith ZF-5 - $1699 (threaded 3- lug barrel, claw mount rail, 3 mags)

Thoughts?

Century AP5 Core Pistol W/ Brace SALE - AtlanticFirearms.com

Century Arms AP5 Core Pistol W/ Brace HG6034AB-N. Compact 9mm semi automatic pistol with SB Tactical SBT5 brace. 787450829558

atlanticfirearms.com

 

[LRRPF52]

I bought 10 of the mp5 drums before moving back to east coast. Only played with one so far but they are awesome.

I wish binary triggers were legal here. A suppressed mp5 with binary is an awesome little gun.

For a detachable magazine-fed PDW/Mini PCC, I think the binary is better than straight FA anyway.

Makes for easy doubles and quadruple strings of fire on-TGT without burning through the mag too fast.

 

[WindstormSCR]

I wish binary triggers were legal here. A suppressed mp5 with binary is an awesome little gun.

if you’re referring to MD, there’s another challenge to that bullshit law being mounted this year

If you’re on the west side of MD 340 defense in WV isn’t too far of a drive

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Just checked my local fun counter:
HK SP5 - $2999 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9CT-CL - $1890 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9C - $1765 (3- lug barrel, welded rail, 2 mags)
Zenith ZF-5 - $1699 (threaded 3- lug barrel, claw mount rail, 3 mags)

Thoughts?

Get an mpx and have the best of both worlds of AR and delayed BB

 

[6brshooter]

Just checked my local fun counter:
HK SP5 - $2999 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9CT-CL - $1890 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9C - $1765 (3- lug barrel, welded rail, 2 mags)
Zenith ZF-5 - $1699 (threaded 3- lug barrel, claw mount rail, 3 mags)

Thoughts?

Order mke ap5 from atlantic- profit?

 

[Chief_Rick]

Get an mpx and have the best of both worlds of AR and delayed BB

I've decided to pass on the Sig. I'm not a huge Sig fan to begin with and the MPX isn't floating my boat.

If I get something, it'll be a MP5 clone or a AR9 carbine of some flavor.

Doing more reading and YouTube watching...

 

[Chief_Rick]

Order mke ap5 from atlantic- profit?

Add $30 S&H, $35 FFL transfer fee, plus taxes to the Century AP-5 and it'll be $1457.

I'm probably over-thinking but adding two additional magazines, the claw-mount rail, sling and a case to the Century AP5 would bring the price closer to the that of the Zenith. Don't really care about the case as that's just something else to store, but two more magazines would just be a start and the rail would definitely be needed.

The prices I posted for the Zenith, PTR and H&Ks are out the door prices.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I've decided to pass on the Sig. I'm not a huge Sig fan to begin with and the MPX isn't floating my boat.

If I get something, it'll be a MP5 clone or a AR9 carbine of some flavor.

Doing more reading and YouTube watching...

Go MP5 then. The AR9 won't be the same fun to shoot. I absolutely love my MPX though. I can hit a 6", plate at 100 yds 10 out of 10 times with a red dot with it and my boys LOVE shooting it. We shoot everything suppressed of course.

 

[WindstormSCR]

AR9s can be ok if using the CMMG RDB system (regular or dissent bufferless) but will never really hit that same level of compact as the MP5 or MCX.

I could see arguments being made if you already had a very large quantity of P320 or Glock stick mags though.

personally the only single reason I’d ever go for anything other than an MP5 would be for one of these: https://freedomordnance.com/fm-9/

 

[AngryKoala]

Just checked my local fun counter:
HK SP5 - $2999 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9CT-CL - $1890 (threaded 3- lug barrel, 2 mags)
PTR 9C - $1765 (3- lug barrel, welded rail, 2 mags)
Zenith ZF-5 - $1699 (threaded 3- lug barrel, claw mount rail, 3 mags)

Thoughts?

Buy online, SP5s are in the 2300 range now.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Can you share were your seeing those?

 

[Chief_Rick]

Can you share were your seeing those?

Air Force BX