Hold that forend?

[jeffersonv]

I did a search and didn't find anything.

I just wanted to get some thoughts on this guy's technique and perhaps why it differs from what most of us probably do.

I think he is advocating this technique for lighter and heavy recoiling rifles.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Articles/Hold+that+Forend.html

I saw this quite a while ago but haven't seen anyone bring it up here.

Thanks.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Hold that forend?

Hmmm. Maybe this belongs in Advanced Marksmanship.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: Hold that forend?

From the article: "When an accurate but high recoiling rifle is fired using the crossed arm hold, the rifle reacts violently, kicking rearwards, upwards and to the right or left."

He, and his clients aparently, are not straight behind their rifles with their stocks contacting their shoulder as close as possible to directly in line with the bore. It doesn't matter how light the rifle and heavy the recoil as long as you are straight behind the rifle, it will end up right where it was when you pulled the trigger.

 

[Chanonry]

Re: Hold that forend?

Yes I was intrigued by that as well. I thought it was worth a try just to see what the results were. The argument he makes seems plausible and I am wary of the 'group think' on the internet.

Anyway I tried it with a light hunting rifle and compared the 'results' to the straight back approach advocated here.

I am still straight back behind the rifle.

Not saying it can't work, but it wasn't some miraculous revelation so I have not continued with it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Hold that forend?

I believe that muzzle flip is a direct consequence of the failure to line up the bore axis with the point of shoulder contact. When the extended bore axis passes above the point of contact, muzzle flip results. The higher it passes, the more flip.

For conclusive evidence, I suggest one considers the basic design of Stoner's AR rifle stock with regard to those two aspects. It is one of the more subtle, but conclusive, advances the design brought to modern effective firearms. I also believe it is less compatible with the more heavily recoiling chamberings.

I think my own experience may suggest that determinedly holding the forend down onto the benchrest will sometimes deliver a more reliable zero when sighting-in heavy recoiling firearms, like slug guns.

Greg

 

[jpretle]

Re: Hold that forend?

What ever method results in the desired 'follow thru', is the one to use. Everyones' conformation is different. If the crossed arms method gives you consistent 'follow thru' and recoil control, there you are. Personally I like getting behind the gun by bringing it as close to my center as possible and comfortable. Basically the butt is inside my shoulder when shooting out of a sling and on it when using a rest.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Hold that forend?

Interesting...some valid observations in his article.

I will have to say that there must be more pieces to the straight behind the rifle puzzle than just being square with it.

 

[Graham]

Re: Hold that forend?

There is a youtube video of Jacob Bynum shooting a lightweight heavily-recoiling hunting rifle that is on point. Maybe someone can find it and link to it...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Hold that forend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting...some valid observations in his article.

I will have to say that there must be more pieces to the straight behind the rifle puzzle than just being square with it.

</div></div>

Not really,

The elimination of angles is about it.

If he were shooting a position other than prone much of what he said would be valid, in alternate position, supporting the rifle any way you can works because you have an angle there.

That is the common factor in every image he shows, (besides the fact they are old and outdated) They are all showing guys at an angle.

He loses consistency because he his always searching for a crutch a way to hold the rifle to prevent it from moving and each time you change something like you change the way it recoils. Straight back works, and works well without any extra effort or pressure.

I dont; know how many videos I have to post, but clearly, I have demonstrated my 135LBS me can shoot anything and control the recoil with little to no effort. I show it with a 20" AX 338... it still barely recoils beyond the slack in the bipod.

Maybe 50 years this was a good idea, but we have progressed, and learned a thing or two about consistency.

Graham the video of Jacob is in the Online Training with his Dad's elephant gun.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Hold that forend?

I know straight behind works, I've seen it and believe it but if it was just the simple elimination of angles more people would be having success with it. That's why I maintain there must be more pieces to the puzzle.

I've bought video's, subscribed to training and seen Jacob do it first hand at RO, I just cannot make it fall into place for me.

Right now I'm so determined to sort this out I think I will make a video of my attempts to make it work and the resulting muzzle jump to the left (everytime). Maybe the subsequent critiquing will show me what I am missing.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Hold that forend?

As been posted in other places, if you are straight you have to look towards a sympathetic squeeze, or possible subconscious shouldering when firing.

Those who can't make it work are usually more susceptible to recoil and are unknowingly accounting for it. Like flinching, only much more subtle.

Elimination of the angles it one thing, but if you are flinching, squeezing or bucking the rifle that is gonna move you off target.

with a good instruction there, finding the problem shouldn't take but one or two shots. If you video yourself, having your wife load your magazine ball & dummy style so we can see if you are moving and where.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Hold that forend?

I'll be happy to stay behind the rifle if at all possible. It works for me.
I wouldn't even know how I would start to adopt this guys shooting philosophy so I'm glad I'm not even going to try.

Thanks to all for the input.

I just recently read a post about a guy who had the same problem (I think?) as mdesign is having. IIRC the fix was that the instructor (Jacob I believe?) had the shooter lay his left arm limp out in front of him. Sympathetic squeeze problem was identified and the fix was underway.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Hold that forend?

Holding your support arm out is a good way to identify a sympathetic squeeze with the support hand, there are other issues including shouldering / bucking that are firing hand sides of the equation.

Both will produce the hop, as they both produce lateral movement and give recoil a path / weakness to exploit.

There is a video of a guy that was posted this week, Kahles review on a NZ forum, when he breaks the trigger he was pulling the rifle to right. You can see him pull it with the firing hand.

It's a process, start with the support hand off, check for that sympathetic squeeze if that doesn't fix it, move to the diagnosing the firing hand.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Hold that forend?

I reading guys...good info...Frank, to you have a link to the video you are referring to?

I'll try leaving my support hand lay limp, we'll see what it shows. I've tried the dummy round test, don't think I have ever failed it.

Recoil sensitive, yeah, I fell on my right shoulder 3 years ago and it's been tough to learn to shoot through. I do wonder if I am anticipating the shot (or shouldering or bucking) and it's causing me issues.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: Hold that forend?

I found the video for ya mdesign.

It was up front in the optics page.

http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f15/film-kahles-624i-4960/

 

[mdesign]

Re: Hold that forend?

Thanks...there are some interesting videos connected to that longrange blog. Makes it look easy so I'm dry practicing at home but we'll see how it goes next time on the range.