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Holy smokes - shot and returned fire
- Thread starter hermosabeach
- Start date
Well, the shooter looks white. Bet if he was black the media would be all over it like white on rice.
According to ABC, he was another black man on a long list whose life was needlessly cut short by police.
The cop was also white.
Im not criticizing the cops tactics and glad he won that gunfight but WTF was that back up doing parked 1/8 of a mile away? He took his sweet time closing the gap once the shooting started.
He may have been an 1/8th mile away because the car is stopped in the left lane and he wants to warn traffic of what's ahead.
Thinking lot of you guys would be second guessed if you were on camera.
Thats what I was thinking, waterboard that fucker in piss.
There's no safe way to approach that vehicle if there's a shooter waiting to open up on you other than stand behind, looking through the back glass and yell commands such as 'Driver, grab the ceiling and don't move.'
Fuck the camera, I'm second guessed here by the 'experts.'.
I understand why he was parked 1/8 of a mile away as 18 wheelers were flying by but still don't know why he was so nonchalant about closing the gap once the shooting started. Even the primary cop was frustrated by the looks of his actions.
I would have opened up on the car with a BAR and demolished it, but thats why I'm not a cop.
Took one in the leg, ass, hand and two in the vest.
There was a thread on arfcom a day earlier that said the perp was shooting a 9mm semi-auto that jammed at six rounds. Thats what the bad guy was doing his dance when he realized his gun was out of commission.
Cop was damn lucky because the Democrat looked like he was intending on applying a kill shot.
As his profession is different than mine, I am not in a position to judge/criticize.
Therefore, my only valid comment to him is, thank you Officer.
Therefore, my only valid comment to him is, thank you Officer.
All that matters is the Officer was able to go home at the end of his shift. The video gives everyone a view of what happen and naturally everyone has an opinion how to do it differently after watching it. But no one but that Officer went through that incident and unless you go through it you really can't criticize unless you had that experience.
When I was younger driving with the wife and a baby in a car seat between up in a pickup truck I was pulled over for speeding. As I watched the Trooper walk up on us hugging the side on my truck with his hand on his weapon I was thinking what is he doing were just a family not a truck full of criminals. But after watching what happen in this video the Trooper was just following procedure even though we were never present such a threat, but the Trooper can't think that way unfortunately.
It was a ambush which most don't survive but this Officer did and it looked like he was administering his own first aid so that puts him in the Rambo group for sure.
There's not enough money in the world to pay me to be a cop in this day and age even if I wanted to become one. Don't remember where I saw it (probably 4Chan), but I saw a survey that said that cops in America have become more unpopular than MS13. The media has painted such a huge target on all cops it's a wonder there's still people even willing to take the job anymore.
why?....serious question....why?
if a plumber does a shitty job and your pipes leak.....are you in no position to judge because you arent a plumber?
if a logger isnt paying attention and drops a tree on a crew member.....are you in no position to judge because you arent a logger?
you know a fuck up when you see it....we dont have to act like it doesnt exist because "we dont know what its like" or whatever bullshit.
not saying the cop deserved to be shot but damn, pretending it didnt happen doesnt help anyone.
and if/ when i fuck up in my job, i damn sure want it to be used as an example so others dont have to make it.....if you dont think i dont tell my students all the times ive injured myself in a machine shop, or destroyed a part/ tool you are dead wrong.....i make the mistakes, and point them out so they dont have to.
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Initial call was for a disabled vehicle... Officer likely had his guard down because of that. Likely made voice contact with the perp through phone call/911 relay as well and perp sounded legit...
Soon as that door shit began, officer should have immediately gone into overwatch with an AR-15 if provided in the patrol kit, used his patrol car as cover, and put as many bright lights/laser dots as possible on the perp's vehicle while issuing voice commands via speaker...
That type of mentality really bugs the shit outta me! It's no secret that I don't believe in voting and apparently because I don't vote that means I'm not allowed to have an opinion about politics. Kinda sad how the internet went from all opinions are welcome to be shared to only select opinions are welcome. I don't have to work at McDonald's to complain about bad service! Jeeeeez!
@mcameron : "not saying the cop deserved to be shot but damn, pretending it didnt happen doesnt help anyone."
Overall, I understand your point. However, nothing I said suggests I am pretending anything.
I am quite sure that within the LE community, including his own force, it will be analyzed and reanalyzed and discussed ad nauseam. This IS exactly where the evaluation/critique should come from.
What I can offer up to the situation is my genuine appreciation for him and what he did.
Overall, I understand your point. However, nothing I said suggests I am pretending anything.
I am quite sure that within the LE community, including his own force, it will be analyzed and reanalyzed and discussed ad nauseam. This IS exactly where the evaluation/critique should come from.
What I can offer up to the situation is my genuine appreciation for him and what he did.
Perp is dead Officer is alive its a success and he saved $$$ no court cost no prison cost Plus Plus in anybody's book.
@Maser : "Kinda sad how the internet went from all opinions are welcome to be shared to only select opinions are welcome"
I absolutely respect your opinion as your experiences, training, etc, are different than mine. Go back and read my post. I am only commenting on what I am comfortable with based on my own experiences. In effect, your comment above is exactly what you were doing in your reaction to a different opinion.
I absolutely respect your opinion as your experiences, training, etc, are different than mine. Go back and read my post. I am only commenting on what I am comfortable with based on my own experiences. In effect, your comment above is exactly what you were doing in your reaction to a different opinion.
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
When your opinions are well informed by experience they carry more weight. You obviously have no clue about how to do this job, therefore your "opinions" are not only wrong, but fucking annoying.
I have never run a lathe or a milling machine, but my friend is an expert machinist and I've watched him for many hours...should I come to your shop and tell you just how bad you are fucking up?
when i launch a part out of a milling machine....yes...you are well within your rights to tell me i fucked up....as you dont need to be a machinist to see a fuck up when you see one.
and what part of any of my criticism is incorrect? or shows i "have no idea"?....do tell?
more importantly....are you telling me the officer that got shot 6 times made 0 mistakes?
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Deleted member 113831
Guest
Yes, you are all fucked up. The operation of a machine is the same day after day. They don't change...what you do to them and with them does. Therefore you are the one to blame because the machine only does what you tell it.
When dealing with people, you never know what you are getting.
Tell me, what are the clear cut signs that every ambush includes? What level of Jedi do you have to be to be able to see into the future and read minds?
1) The officer parked back from the car for traffic safety. Cop cars very often get hit in traffic, and drunks especially are attracted to the lights. Space is a buffer zone from an impact of a random car.
2) The officer approached from the left because approaching from passenger side on an interstate would have him standing in traffic.
3) This was not a stop, it was a motorist assist, there was no reason to believe this was anything other than someone who needed help.
4) There were two ways to approach:
A) along side the car which gives the perp the ability to see you in the side mirror and track your movement. It might take more gross movement for the perp to shoot you, but we are talking fractions of a second more and the pillars hide that movement from the officer. Once you pass the rear of the car, you are locked into moving either straight back or to the left which is further into the "fatal funnel".
B) Take a wide path, allowing more space between you and the driver. You actually gain a visual on the occupants sooner, just like "pieing" the corner of a room or a door. You have options of moving either left or right.
What got the officer shot the most was tripping. He tripped because he tried to backpedal instead of moving laterally.
So, he did make a mistake...but because you don't have any idea what the FUCK you are talking about, you missed that part.
funny, because all i hear from every cop is "approach every car as a potential threat"
where did he have room to move "left or right".....he was trapped between a median wall and the perps car.....were we watching the same video?
his only option was to move forward or back.
you cannot see whats in the perps lap when you are that far away from the car.....and you are honestly going to arguing against "fractions of a second" in a gun fight....seriously?
and you arent seeing anyone approaching when you have a spot light and strobes flashing...which he should have done as well.
christ and you have the balls to claim i dont know what im talking about?
but im not a cop....so apparently my opinion is invalid......or "annoying" as you put it.
when i need opinions on moose wrangling or maple syrup.....ill call a canadian......otherwise leave the gun craft to the americans.
I would respectfully have to disagree, if he tripped than that save his life how everything turned out he survive the incident even though he got wounded which in a ambush would of happen regardless unless you were lucky.
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Deleted member 113831
Guest
No you don't. Even if they did say that, they don't mean it the way you do, or every contact would be treated like a felony stop.
I was referring to the general principles as to why this approach is used.
You can't see what is in the perps lap no matter the method. More space is better than less space.
The fractions of a second I'm referring to happen before there is even a perceived threat, so yeah.
The theory that take downs and spot lights blind the driver is a myth. Heavy tint negates that very much and the same spot light that is illuminating the car is casting your shadow as you approach...which is yet another reason to swing wide.
You don't leave your front strobes or red and blues on during a stop because they confuse your vision as well. You leave your rear ones flashing only.
Yeah, saying loud and clear.
You are obviously not a cop. You have been wrong on just about every point.
I'm not a Canadian, I'm an American and I've only done this professionally for about 18 years now. I retrain on this shit quarterly because my agency requires it. Hell, I was in training yesterday and we were skull fucking this exact scenario and walking through it.
I'm well aware of what techniques are used and why and how they have evolved over the years. They all have strengths and shortcomings.
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No technicality. Alex would have put perp behind bars only to have him escape via helicopter and coming back to kill Alex and boobytrap the airplane Walker is taking back from a vision quest. Goodness man. Get it right
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Deleted member 113831
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His vest saved his life, three of the rounds that hit him were after he was on the ground. His fall kept him from returning fire until after the suspects gun had already jammed.
so they didnt say it?....or they didnt mean it like i thought?....pick one.
so you are talking generally about a specific event?.....good strategy
you do realize i can walk up to a car and prove you wrong without being a cop right?......like, ive literally done this...and yes you can 100% see whats in someones lap.
you are really grasping at straws now pal.
again....this would bear more weight if you were talking to someone whos never been pulled over before......or ever had a bright light shone on them at night at any time ever.....
hmmm, every time ive ever been pulled over the cops left their lights on.....they must all have been doing it wrong.
how many of those "18 years" have you spent behind a desk again?
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Deleted member 113831
Guest
What you are is a fucking moron. You don't know what you don't know. You are a prime example of the Dunning-Kreuger effect.
I would bet you are probably an engineer of some sort.
you are literally arguing the guy who got shot 6 times did nothing wrong.....and im the moron?
christ i hope you have never been responsible for training anyone in your 18 yrs...
the officer got complacent.....and he paid for his complacency.....and if it wasnt for sheer luck.....he wouldnt be here right now.......i really dont see how you have any solid grounds to argue against this.
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Deleted member 113831
Guest
Yeah, because that is the reality, this isn't engineering 101 you twat.
There is no mathmatical formula that works all the time. Sometimes you do everything right and you still die.
dur dur dur dur....are you going to actually come back with a counter....or just sit there and yell at the clouds because a lowly engineer/ professional firearms instructor knows more about defensive shooting tactics than a "18 yr veteran of the force"......?
Complacency will get you killed. I am glad he is alive and i hope they send him back through training. Now for his first responding officer, he needs his ass kicked.
I appreciate the response. It lets me know the only experience you have with any of this is tv based.
Here goes, Jean Claude: Your "body mechanics" argument is shit. Just saying that let's me know you've never, ever trained or have any real-world experience in this area. Sit in your car, hold your finger gun up by your chest, pointed out the window. Now tell me where an approaching officer would have to be to see it. You'd have to walk right into it. I'd rather be a few feet away, if I can help it. I'm sure you'd do it better than me, though.
Talking about the lights was your biggest tell. Theres not enough "flood" in them to do shit but backlight you as you walk up, really letting the violator know where you are. Especially if you use your super-tactical, walk right down the side of the car, approach. Fuck sakes, sis, it's a flashlight that's mounted to the A pillar. Even combine it with take downs in a bar light and you have to be stopped at the perfect angle for any of it to do the least bit of good.
And "wasting precious seconds, flailing around." That's flat-out hilarious from a lady that's never been shot at. Fuck you very much for judging that man's reaction to being shot. That's some grade A coward shit right there.
The bulk majority of my job anymore is training. There's much to be learned from other's failures. My armchair comment was specifically for self-important pricks like you that have never done the job, don't have the backbone for it, yet think that your massive theoretical experience counts for shit. Look at the big brain on Brad, ha ha ha.
You must be the most blissful person on the hide.
Welp, there it is. The first retarded thing I’ve read this Christmas.
Glad the officer survived the encounter.
Those of you on shift today, stay safe.
I've had the unfortunate benefit of having to defend myself 2x with a firearm....if for some reason that is the barometer you define the ability to judge someone's actions....I'm pretty sure I more than qualify son.
Now are you done being autistic or do you want to compare resumes some more?
And merry Christmas faggot
Merry Christmas, Coward. Such a big ol bad ass. The fact that you say you've successfully defended your purse from being stolen two times is a shitty resume. Do you find it difficult to stand for long periods of time with that jellyfish of a spine?
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Tread lightly cap..... lots, and I mean, A LOT, of the members here have had to defend themselves or others with use of deadly force. It ain't for bragging rights, but if'n it were, there are some scary MF's catching their rest here in this safe spot. Its Christmas, don't go fucking around barking up trees that might fall on you.
Took a little, gave a little back. No more than that. Just can't stand to see people look down there noses at someone that survived a damned if you do, damned if you don't type situation. Especially when they have zero working experience in that field. The mere fact of defending oneself doesn't equate to knowledge of situations like this one. I'd venture to say the majority of us here have had to make life of death decisions in a compressed amount of time. Why anyone who's been there would ridicule a man who survived an ambush is completely beyond me. Steer away from the topic and go with random insults, I can get into that too. No big deal to me either way.
Body armour.
Gotta love it.
Complacency strikes at any time.
Whether you are the "World's Best Operator"(yes,aimed at you self professed hard cunts, that think owning a tactical firearm and vest rig plus playing paintball, is relevant to real world environment.
)
or a tool pusher on a rig, or crossing a busy road.
Best outcome occurred:Copper lives and hopefully learns from incident, Piece Of Shit assailant dies, on side of motorway.
Merry Christmas to all, anyway.
Hope you are all safe, and "Mrs Santa" empties your bag of goodies.
Gotta love it.
Complacency strikes at any time.
Whether you are the "World's Best Operator"(yes,aimed at you self professed hard cunts, that think owning a tactical firearm and vest rig plus playing paintball, is relevant to real world environment.
)or a tool pusher on a rig, or crossing a busy road.
Best outcome occurred:Copper lives and hopefully learns from incident, Piece Of Shit assailant dies, on side of motorway.
Merry Christmas to all, anyway.
Hope you are all safe, and "Mrs Santa" empties your bag of goodies.
What are the odds the flash light blinds the camera when all the action starts
I've watched this thread for the last two days and struggled on whether to respond or not. Obviously by my response you see my decision.
I have been in law forcement for 18 years, a good chunk of that as an instructor in physical tactics and S.T.O.P.S. (Strategies & Tactics of Patrol Stops)
I can tell you first-hand from watching hundreds if not thousands of hours of videos of traffic stops gone wrong that there is absolutely no perfectly safe way to approach a vehicle. I would be more than happy for any of you naysayers to come to one of my, or any, stops classes where it will most assuredly change your mind and your views that there is a "best / safe way" or anyway you can approach a vehicle and not be immediately at a disadvantage. No matter where you choose to stand or approach the vehicle, spot light, no spotlight, right side left side or any of the other ridiculous things people believe will sheild or save them when things go sideways. True there is no substitute for proper training and experience, that training will hopefully save ones life.
(I feel people's pseudo expertise in this comes from watching too much cop tv, or dreaming they are an operator) But hey let's defund our agencies, let's slash training budgets all because "someone knows better" that has never worked a day of their life in LE and scenes like this will sadly become common place. (sorry that's another rant for another time lol)
Yes there are many tactics and techniques that help even out the odds, but the officer will never have the better odds in situation like a traffic stop. I assure you that any mope or individual that is hell bent to shoot or try to shoot you will do so (yes even hugging the car at the rear of the vehicle). I also have to say aside from being completely unsafe and putting yourself in an indefensible position leaning into a car, there are many ways a driver or passenger can conceal a gun from an officers view. I and other instructors have proven all of this to people with way more experience and knowledge on the job. As far as being military and being able to do this they are two different worlds entirely. I can say this with conviction and knowledge of the fact as I've lived both sides as an Operator and LEO.
To have the gall to second-guess/armchair quarterback any officer that puts on a uniform daily and risks his life to assist an individual is, at least for me, beyond comprehension. An individual watching a video gets minutes/hours/ Days to look at it and second guess a person's actions. When in reality the officer had mere fractions of a second to make his decision and react.
No matter how badass you think you are, I assure you you're not. No matter who you are, outside of the movies or fantasy land (yes even Chuck Norris lol), action beats reaction every time, this has been proven not only in theory but in practice and real life among thousands of cases. I can appreciate everyone's viewpoint but to second guess or act as if you would do a better job in the same circumstance is ludicrous. Is it possible you could have done better, yes, it's also even more likely that you would not walk away from it at all. I have lost many close friends from stops where they did nothing wrong. Can this video, as well as hundreds of others like it be a training aid, yes, can it help the officer / officers see any hesitations or mistakes he's made yes. It's sad to say that in today's world an officer has to worry that even in a completely justified shooting he will face the fear of possibly loosing his job, his house, his well being and possibly his freedom just for doing his job. Now you put that stress on yourself, have that hanging in the back of your mind while doing your job and tell me it may not effect you (That plumber doesn't live with the knowledge that something he may do will be broadcast on a world stage for all to see and cast judgment).
Again for any that feel the they are Superman / super cop or Soldier themselves please feel free to attend any of my training courses or any true LEO stops class. You will come away humble, educated and hopefully with a bit more knowledge of reality. There is also always the possibility that I learn something from you as well and I'm a big and humble enough man to admit that and welcome the opportunity to learn.
Remember I don't come down to McDonald's and tell you how to flip a hamburger w/o first having at least a decent first hand knowledge of what I'm talking about.
For the record anyone calling the officer any name for what you "feel" he did wrong is way out of line. Luckily people like him, and others that serve our country / community do so so you can have the freedom to have your opinions. No matter how skewed they may be you still have the right to voice them and be heard, even a troll looking for reactions as it's the only form of attention they get, and for that I am proud.
I have been in law forcement for 18 years, a good chunk of that as an instructor in physical tactics and S.T.O.P.S. (Strategies & Tactics of Patrol Stops)
I can tell you first-hand from watching hundreds if not thousands of hours of videos of traffic stops gone wrong that there is absolutely no perfectly safe way to approach a vehicle. I would be more than happy for any of you naysayers to come to one of my, or any, stops classes where it will most assuredly change your mind and your views that there is a "best / safe way" or anyway you can approach a vehicle and not be immediately at a disadvantage. No matter where you choose to stand or approach the vehicle, spot light, no spotlight, right side left side or any of the other ridiculous things people believe will sheild or save them when things go sideways. True there is no substitute for proper training and experience, that training will hopefully save ones life.
(I feel people's pseudo expertise in this comes from watching too much cop tv, or dreaming they are an operator) But hey let's defund our agencies, let's slash training budgets all because "someone knows better" that has never worked a day of their life in LE and scenes like this will sadly become common place. (sorry that's another rant for another time lol)
Yes there are many tactics and techniques that help even out the odds, but the officer will never have the better odds in situation like a traffic stop. I assure you that any mope or individual that is hell bent to shoot or try to shoot you will do so (yes even hugging the car at the rear of the vehicle). I also have to say aside from being completely unsafe and putting yourself in an indefensible position leaning into a car, there are many ways a driver or passenger can conceal a gun from an officers view. I and other instructors have proven all of this to people with way more experience and knowledge on the job. As far as being military and being able to do this they are two different worlds entirely. I can say this with conviction and knowledge of the fact as I've lived both sides as an Operator and LEO.
To have the gall to second-guess/armchair quarterback any officer that puts on a uniform daily and risks his life to assist an individual is, at least for me, beyond comprehension. An individual watching a video gets minutes/hours/ Days to look at it and second guess a person's actions. When in reality the officer had mere fractions of a second to make his decision and react.
No matter how badass you think you are, I assure you you're not. No matter who you are, outside of the movies or fantasy land (yes even Chuck Norris lol), action beats reaction every time, this has been proven not only in theory but in practice and real life among thousands of cases. I can appreciate everyone's viewpoint but to second guess or act as if you would do a better job in the same circumstance is ludicrous. Is it possible you could have done better, yes, it's also even more likely that you would not walk away from it at all. I have lost many close friends from stops where they did nothing wrong. Can this video, as well as hundreds of others like it be a training aid, yes, can it help the officer / officers see any hesitations or mistakes he's made yes. It's sad to say that in today's world an officer has to worry that even in a completely justified shooting he will face the fear of possibly loosing his job, his house, his well being and possibly his freedom just for doing his job. Now you put that stress on yourself, have that hanging in the back of your mind while doing your job and tell me it may not effect you (That plumber doesn't live with the knowledge that something he may do will be broadcast on a world stage for all to see and cast judgment).
Again for any that feel the they are Superman / super cop or Soldier themselves please feel free to attend any of my training courses or any true LEO stops class. You will come away humble, educated and hopefully with a bit more knowledge of reality. There is also always the possibility that I learn something from you as well and I'm a big and humble enough man to admit that and welcome the opportunity to learn.
Remember I don't come down to McDonald's and tell you how to flip a hamburger w/o first having at least a decent first hand knowledge of what I'm talking about.
For the record anyone calling the officer any name for what you "feel" he did wrong is way out of line. Luckily people like him, and others that serve our country / community do so so you can have the freedom to have your opinions. No matter how skewed they may be you still have the right to voice them and be heard, even a troll looking for reactions as it's the only form of attention they get, and for that I am proud.
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In NJ your not allowed to use anything but fmj. It’s kinda stupid you can own Jhp but not cannot use them to defend yourself. This is a prime example of why.
There is no 100% safe way to approach a vehicle in a drawn gun situation. I would have probably approached wide like the cop in the video and sliced the pie to get a visual rather than slide up behind him hoping he didn't have a surprise.
There's a reason cops leave a thumb print on the back of a vehicle because they're entering a kill zone when sliding up next to it before getting eyes inside.
