Re: Home protection Rifle
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I am wrong I am wrong, but I can't correct my ignorance without positive data to replace it. </div></div>
Here is the problem with the HD argument.
First, folks want a black and white answer. The world is NOT black and white. It's varying shades of gray splattered with blood red.
If someone asks me in person what they should get for a home defense weapon, I automatically answer it with a series of questions. Most of the time the person is asking me because they have little firearms experience and are confused by the vast array of choices at the gun counter. For those folks ballistics don't matter. Magazine capacity doesn't matter. In fact the courtroom doesn't even matter because in order to make it to that stage you have to first survive the violent encounter. For them I usually suggest a .38 or .357 revolver. This is also actually my "last line" weapon because they are inexpensive, easily stashed and when you are broken and bleeding they are easy to jam in the gut and pull the trigger until it goes "click".
Now if a service member is asking me the same question, almost 99.99% of the time if they have had any exposure to the M16 family of weapons, I suggest a light AR with a weapon light. They already have some familiarity with the weapon and a long gun WILL be more accurate than a pistol even in close quarters. I have seen this time and time again in force on force training. The AR is a simple weapon to operate and if a quality example is bought and quality ammunition used, the chances of a malfunction are extremely low. If the homeowner decides on an AR I highly suggest that they take a basic carbine class to familiarize themselves with clearing malfunctions and drills that the military tends to miss.
If the homeowner is a hunter and has a couple good shotguns laying about, then the answer is extremely simple. Load up some reduced recoil 00 buck and roll. It's a proven manstopper, won't thump your shoulder and in reality some of the monster 3" loads guys like just aren't necessary. If the shotgun is an autoloader then the chosen defensive load should be verified for function. Patterning can be done but really at CQB distances a cylinder bore is still going to be very tight. If the shotgun is a pump I suggest that the operator knows how to clear a double feed and that they get some dummy shells or spend some quality time every couple of weeks blowing some birdshot through it. Folks have been known to short-stroke pumps under stress. I have done it when I push for maximum speed on the scattergun.
Do you have a house full of kids that you may need to round up? Then a pistol may be a better choice. It's a lot easier to manipulate a flashlight, lightswitch, doorknob, etc. with a pistol than with a shotgun or rifle. Carrying younguns is also easier with a one handed blaster.
Now we come to the crux of the problem. Every alpha male likes to see themselves as the action hero flowing through the house and getting the drop on the badguy. The cold hard truth is it takes a professional more than a year of steady training before they become comfortable and proficient in clearing a house in a team environment. As an individual it is an almost impossible task. SWAT teams train to never go into a room alone. How many team members will you have at 0-dark-thirty to clear your house?
Walk through your house tonight and find the choke point between the entry and the bedrooms. That is your Thermopylae. That is where you need to be able to cover and prevent anyone from passing. You don't need to go protect your TV or your XBox. You need to protect living bodies. If you live in an apartment, then make sure you can quickly barricade the door to the bedroom and make a stand there. Have access to a land line and a cell phone. If you call 911 by cell the first thing out of your mouth should be the address. That way if something happens before you can explain the problem the po-po are rolling to you. Cell phone callers suck at this and very frequently a hot run comes in and police have to spend an hour trying to figure out where in the several square miles around a cell tower the call actually came from.
If you decide that you are too much of a man to bunker in place or your stuff is worth more than your life, then you need to get some professional training on close quarters battle with your chosen weapon. I would also suggest you invest in some armor and make sure your insurance policy is paid. Home invaders are getting better armed. Even a ratty stolen SKS can do a number on you, your Galls used body armor and your pile of Tactical Gear.
In the end it's not about what you choose. It's about how you choose to use it and how proficient you are with executing the plan. No plan survives first contact, so have a contingency for that.
Lastly, everyone worries about the legal aspects. To get to the legal aspects you have to SURVIVE THE ENCOUNTER. I am not an attorney and I don't profess to know all the legal precedents set around the country regarding lethal force encounters. I can tell you I am not aware of a single legitimate burglary/home invasion in my area where a homeowner has shot and seriously injured the criminal and been successfully sued OR charged with a crime. By legitimate I mean drugs were not involved and the criminal did not have a prior relationship with the "victim". I don't know offhand what states still have a "duty to retreat" law on the books. Most have gone the other way and enacted "castle doctrine". This basically states that you may legally assume that someone breaking into your residence intends to do you bodily harm and you may defend yourself up to and including lethal force. Some states have extended this to occupied vehicles and businesses. In either case, if you remember that lethal force is only to be used to prevent serious bodily harm to you or another and is a last resort, then you have done all you can. At that point AK or grandpops H&R isn't going to matter.
Civil litigation is a whole nother ball of wax and anyone can be sued for anything. Hire a good lawyer and know that you did the right thing. Some states have laws to prevent a lawsuit in the event the shooting was justified. Some lawsuits can be shot down rather quickly. Only you and your lawyer will be able to make an accurate determination on how to proceed based on your specific situation.
A shooting is messy. There isn't any way to make it all "skittles and sunshine". The political climate of where you live will have bearing on how the investigation goes.
If you are involved in a self defense shooting in your home, you may be handcuffed. You will be questioned. Your weapon will be seized. You may be made to feel like a criminal instead of a victim. It's not on purpose it's just the way it goes. This is where that "last resort" thing comes in. If you KNOW it was you or them, then there is no turmoil. You will know that you did what you had to do to continue to breath or to protect your family. If you shot someone because you were worried they were going to steal your TV, you may experience a little more stress.
You may always invoke your Miranda Rights and remain silent when questioned. Depending on the circumstances this may be a good idea until you have spoken with a lawyer. However this also may lead to you being placed under arrest and charged. If the detectives can't gather enough information to determine if the shooting was justified then you may find yourself in custody until you and your lawyer can talk to a judge. I have a lawyer I can contact 24/7 if I am involved in a lethal force situation. It's one of the perks of my professional organization. It may be a good idea to seek out a lawyer and spend some money for his advice before you find yourself in this type of situation.
As you can see, there isn't a simple "get a shotgun" type answer. I could tell you to get a belt-fed machine gun, but it doesn't prepare you for the situation any more than a baseball bat.
We can talk ballistics all day long. Gelatin blocks are cool. So is blowing up wallboard. However it's not a block of gel that's going to break into your house, rape your dog, kill your wife and steal your TV. It's easy to kill a human. It's hard to kill them fast. Learning to do it can take a lifetime. How long that is, is up to you.
What I use for HD is immaterial. Everything I have at my disposal I have trained with extensively. Not many folks are in the same boat. </div></div>
This is some great shit. Much appreciated.
But I have one change that I'd like to add (hopefully without starting a shitstorm).
If you are involved in a SD shooting, REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES, speak to a lawyer BEFORE you say a word to the police.
All is takes is one shitty prosecutor to really put a cramp in your style for a very long time, costing a shitload of money, and perhaps leading to your loss of freedom.
NEVER talk to the po-po without a lawyer. Ever. Anyone who does deserves everything they get.
We have a right to remain silent for a reason. Exercise it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If I am wrong I am wrong, but I can't correct my ignorance without positive data to replace it. </div></div>
Here is the problem with the HD argument.
First, folks want a black and white answer. The world is NOT black and white. It's varying shades of gray splattered with blood red.
If someone asks me in person what they should get for a home defense weapon, I automatically answer it with a series of questions. Most of the time the person is asking me because they have little firearms experience and are confused by the vast array of choices at the gun counter. For those folks ballistics don't matter. Magazine capacity doesn't matter. In fact the courtroom doesn't even matter because in order to make it to that stage you have to first survive the violent encounter. For them I usually suggest a .38 or .357 revolver. This is also actually my "last line" weapon because they are inexpensive, easily stashed and when you are broken and bleeding they are easy to jam in the gut and pull the trigger until it goes "click".
Now if a service member is asking me the same question, almost 99.99% of the time if they have had any exposure to the M16 family of weapons, I suggest a light AR with a weapon light. They already have some familiarity with the weapon and a long gun WILL be more accurate than a pistol even in close quarters. I have seen this time and time again in force on force training. The AR is a simple weapon to operate and if a quality example is bought and quality ammunition used, the chances of a malfunction are extremely low. If the homeowner decides on an AR I highly suggest that they take a basic carbine class to familiarize themselves with clearing malfunctions and drills that the military tends to miss.
If the homeowner is a hunter and has a couple good shotguns laying about, then the answer is extremely simple. Load up some reduced recoil 00 buck and roll. It's a proven manstopper, won't thump your shoulder and in reality some of the monster 3" loads guys like just aren't necessary. If the shotgun is an autoloader then the chosen defensive load should be verified for function. Patterning can be done but really at CQB distances a cylinder bore is still going to be very tight. If the shotgun is a pump I suggest that the operator knows how to clear a double feed and that they get some dummy shells or spend some quality time every couple of weeks blowing some birdshot through it. Folks have been known to short-stroke pumps under stress. I have done it when I push for maximum speed on the scattergun.
Do you have a house full of kids that you may need to round up? Then a pistol may be a better choice. It's a lot easier to manipulate a flashlight, lightswitch, doorknob, etc. with a pistol than with a shotgun or rifle. Carrying younguns is also easier with a one handed blaster.
Now we come to the crux of the problem. Every alpha male likes to see themselves as the action hero flowing through the house and getting the drop on the badguy. The cold hard truth is it takes a professional more than a year of steady training before they become comfortable and proficient in clearing a house in a team environment. As an individual it is an almost impossible task. SWAT teams train to never go into a room alone. How many team members will you have at 0-dark-thirty to clear your house?
Walk through your house tonight and find the choke point between the entry and the bedrooms. That is your Thermopylae. That is where you need to be able to cover and prevent anyone from passing. You don't need to go protect your TV or your XBox. You need to protect living bodies. If you live in an apartment, then make sure you can quickly barricade the door to the bedroom and make a stand there. Have access to a land line and a cell phone. If you call 911 by cell the first thing out of your mouth should be the address. That way if something happens before you can explain the problem the po-po are rolling to you. Cell phone callers suck at this and very frequently a hot run comes in and police have to spend an hour trying to figure out where in the several square miles around a cell tower the call actually came from.
If you decide that you are too much of a man to bunker in place or your stuff is worth more than your life, then you need to get some professional training on close quarters battle with your chosen weapon. I would also suggest you invest in some armor and make sure your insurance policy is paid. Home invaders are getting better armed. Even a ratty stolen SKS can do a number on you, your Galls used body armor and your pile of Tactical Gear.
In the end it's not about what you choose. It's about how you choose to use it and how proficient you are with executing the plan. No plan survives first contact, so have a contingency for that.
Lastly, everyone worries about the legal aspects. To get to the legal aspects you have to SURVIVE THE ENCOUNTER. I am not an attorney and I don't profess to know all the legal precedents set around the country regarding lethal force encounters. I can tell you I am not aware of a single legitimate burglary/home invasion in my area where a homeowner has shot and seriously injured the criminal and been successfully sued OR charged with a crime. By legitimate I mean drugs were not involved and the criminal did not have a prior relationship with the "victim". I don't know offhand what states still have a "duty to retreat" law on the books. Most have gone the other way and enacted "castle doctrine". This basically states that you may legally assume that someone breaking into your residence intends to do you bodily harm and you may defend yourself up to and including lethal force. Some states have extended this to occupied vehicles and businesses. In either case, if you remember that lethal force is only to be used to prevent serious bodily harm to you or another and is a last resort, then you have done all you can. At that point AK or grandpops H&R isn't going to matter.
Civil litigation is a whole nother ball of wax and anyone can be sued for anything. Hire a good lawyer and know that you did the right thing. Some states have laws to prevent a lawsuit in the event the shooting was justified. Some lawsuits can be shot down rather quickly. Only you and your lawyer will be able to make an accurate determination on how to proceed based on your specific situation.
A shooting is messy. There isn't any way to make it all "skittles and sunshine". The political climate of where you live will have bearing on how the investigation goes.
If you are involved in a self defense shooting in your home, you may be handcuffed. You will be questioned. Your weapon will be seized. You may be made to feel like a criminal instead of a victim. It's not on purpose it's just the way it goes. This is where that "last resort" thing comes in. If you KNOW it was you or them, then there is no turmoil. You will know that you did what you had to do to continue to breath or to protect your family. If you shot someone because you were worried they were going to steal your TV, you may experience a little more stress.
You may always invoke your Miranda Rights and remain silent when questioned. Depending on the circumstances this may be a good idea until you have spoken with a lawyer. However this also may lead to you being placed under arrest and charged. If the detectives can't gather enough information to determine if the shooting was justified then you may find yourself in custody until you and your lawyer can talk to a judge. I have a lawyer I can contact 24/7 if I am involved in a lethal force situation. It's one of the perks of my professional organization. It may be a good idea to seek out a lawyer and spend some money for his advice before you find yourself in this type of situation.
As you can see, there isn't a simple "get a shotgun" type answer. I could tell you to get a belt-fed machine gun, but it doesn't prepare you for the situation any more than a baseball bat.
We can talk ballistics all day long. Gelatin blocks are cool. So is blowing up wallboard. However it's not a block of gel that's going to break into your house, rape your dog, kill your wife and steal your TV. It's easy to kill a human. It's hard to kill them fast. Learning to do it can take a lifetime. How long that is, is up to you.
What I use for HD is immaterial. Everything I have at my disposal I have trained with extensively. Not many folks are in the same boat. </div></div>
This is some great shit. Much appreciated.
But I have one change that I'd like to add (hopefully without starting a shitstorm).
If you are involved in a SD shooting, REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES, speak to a lawyer BEFORE you say a word to the police.
All is takes is one shitty prosecutor to really put a cramp in your style for a very long time, costing a shitload of money, and perhaps leading to your loss of freedom.
NEVER talk to the po-po without a lawyer. Ever. Anyone who does deserves everything they get.
We have a right to remain silent for a reason. Exercise it.
