Horizontal spread

[Klay23]

Hey everyone. Shot over the weekend and having a horizontal stringing going on. Anyone know what may be going on. Vertically it was good. 3/8” if not less max spread over 15 shots. Could not stop my reticle from moving right to left as I was setting up. Newbie and would love advice

 

[Dthomas3523]

Likely quite a few things with fundamentals.

From how you address the rifle, to natural point of aim.

 

[Klay23]

I was afraid that was going to be the answer, lol.

where would you start?

 

[Newbie2020]

I highly recommend the Frank and Marc show. But I’m sure there’s other quality instructors around the country. @Dthomas3523 in south Texas is a competitive center fire and 22LR shooter, and an excellent instructor. Rifles only in South Texas and Colorado kinda wrote the book on long range precision training 2 decades ago. Treadproof with Frank and Marc in Tennessee is open for registration. Mile high shooting in Fort Morgan Colorado does a class with Frank once a month April through October. Frank and Jacob both speak highly of Phil and Caylen. There’s probably other good LR marksmanship courses also.

But unfortunately I’m afraid there’s more than a few not as qualified instructors out there also (personal Newbie experience...). I don’t know a good system to vet the available courses other than ask someone you respect who knows the instructor.

Spend a little money, travel to where the good courses are, and you will NOT be sorry.

 

[Klay23]

I highly recommend the Frank and Marc show. But I’m sure there’s other quality instructors around the country. @Dthomas3523 in south Texas is a competitive center fire and 22LR shooter, and an excellent instructor. Rifles only in South Texas and Colorado kinda wrote the book on long range precision training 2 decades ago. Treadproof with Frank and Marc in Tennessee is open for registration. Mile high shooting in Fort Morgan Colorado does a class with Frank once a month April through October. Frank and Jacob both speak highly of Phil and Caylen. There’s probably other good LR marksmanship courses also.

But unfortunately I’m afraid there’s more than a few not as qualified instructors out there also (personal Newbie experience...). I don’t know a good system to vet the available courses other than ask someone you respect who knows the instructor.

Spend a little money, travel to where the good courses are, and you will NOT be sorry.

Any ideas where to train in the south east?

 

[Newbie2020]

Altus Shooting Solutions in Baker, FL might be a fit. I'm sure someone here on the Hide has experience with them.

Here's a thread:

Training Courses - Altus Precision Class?

I’ve been looking into their Precision Rifle Level One class; has anyone gone through it? If so, what was the overall takeaway?

www.snipershide.com

 

[theLBC]

could it be parallax?

 

[Klay23]

could it be parallax?

Not sure. Would try any suggestion, ha

 

[smoothy8500]

Not sure.

Soooo, do you normally adjust your scope to eliminate it?

For less than $20 a month the online training here is pretty darn good.

 

[Klay23]

No. I try not too. I’m 100% sure it was me and I just didn’t get something right. Looking into training in my area. I believe I have something lined up for the end of this month.

 

[kindabitey]

Any ideas where to train in the south east?

@CaylenW and @velayo_0317 will be back at Pigg River Precision in Nov. for a PR201 class.
Until then, they have some awesome online classes at Modern Day Sniper.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

No. I try not too.

You should always adjust parallax.

 

[Klay23]

You should always adjust parallax.

I’m sorry, I thought you meant adjust my windage zero. It was a little windy the other day but at 100yds I didn’t think it was hard enough to make an inch worth of difference. I truly believe it was how I was setup on the rifle.

 

[Klay23]

@CaylenW and @velayo_0317 will be back at Pigg River Precision in Nov. for a PR201 class.
Until then, they have some awesome online classes at Modern Day Sniper.

Where is Pigg River?

 

[kindabitey]

Where is Pigg River?

Rocky Mount, VA
About an hour north of Greensboro, NC on US220
They have a pretty full schedule this year with a 1 day match every month, a 2 day in June, and a Guardian match in Oct. Come up up, and shoot with us sometime.

 

[chase723]

Like others have alluded to it can be/is a lot of things. That said, a couple simple tips 1) Adjust your parallax 2) Get square behind the rifle, rifle as midline as possible/comfortable. It’ll be on your clavicle just lateral to your SC joint. 3) Get your chest off the ground a little bit (use a small pad, pack, taller rear bag etc). This will prevent your breathing and heart beat from affecting your POA as much 4) Use a “good” rear bag to keep the butt of your rifle from undulating as much. 5) Adjust your trigger/change your trigger somewhere between 12oz and 1.5lbs.

 

[Klay23]

Like others have alluded to it can be/is a lot of things. That said, a couple simple tips 1) Adjust your parallax 2) Get square behind the rifle, rifle as midline as possible/comfortable. It’ll be on your clavicle just lateral to your SC joint. 3) Get your chest off the ground a little bit (use a small pad, pack, taller rear bag etc). This will prevent your breathing and heart beat from affecting your POA as much 4) Use a “good” rear bag to keep the butt of your rifle from undulating as much. 5) Adjust your trigger/change your trigger somewhere between 12oz and 1.5lbs.

Parallax is easy and always done. Definitely working on the rest of it though.

Rocky Mount, VA
About an hour north of Greensboro, NC on US220
They have a pretty full schedule this year with a 1 day match every month, a 2 day in June, and a Guardian match in Oct. Come up up, and shoot with us sometime.

Not too far away, less than 3 hours

 

[theLBC]

try a firmer press into your shoulder.

 

[sinister]

The good news is, with good, consistent ammo your vertical spread is minimal. Excellent! That narrows things quite a lot.

Horizontal spread comes from not catching and adjusting for variations in wind ... sometimes more than you'd expect, even at a hundred yards.

You can make a lot of progress compensating with slight shades and favors without clicking.

 

[Klay23]

The good news is, with good, consistent ammo your vertical spread is minimal. Excellent! That narrows things quite a lot.

Horizontal spread comes from not catching and adjusting for variations in wind ... sometimes more than you'd expect, even at a hundred yards.

You can make a lot of progress compensating with slight shades and favors without clicking.

I hand load. Vertical spread was really nice, ha. I shot a one hole group ONCE before and am now determined to make it happen again. Bahahahaha

 

[sinister]

Try something like bull-x bag AND a rear bag to dampen/minimize/kill any horizontal spread not attributable to wind -- basically isolating your gun system from the left-right movement you mentioned in your original post

 

[Klay23]

Try something like bull-x bag AND a rear bag to dampen/minimize/kill any horizontal spread not attributable to wind -- basically isolating your gun system from the left-right movement you mentioned in your original post

I was on a bipod and rear bag. Although I was struggling to get it just right. I never could get it squarely in the middle of the bag. Not sure if I was too high on my bipod arms and wasn’t quite right in my rear bag. Dry fire practice I can get it to sit pretty still. But at the particular range the benches are older and none of them are actually level....

I try to not let any of that be an excuse, in the real world it will never be perfect. Just trying to figure out how to overcome whatever. I’m a newbie and have only been shooting for about a year though

 

[sinister]

Bipods (especially those like the Harris that compensate for cant, and the Atlas that pans) sometimes add a slight "Wobble" factor you won't have with a good bag.

 

[Klay23]

Bipods (especially those like the Harris that compensate for cant, and the Atlas that pans) sometimes add a slight "Wobble" factor you won't have with a good bag.

That’s exactly what I have. Harris, hmmmmm

 

[brianf]

All joking aside...don’t waste another round of Ammo.

Get 1-2 day training...it’s the only guaranteed way.

the rest are band aids which will fall off sooner or later

every one has great fundamentals on X caliber....give them a magnum and they have a shotgun pattern.

Proper fundamentals cross all calibers and platforms, band aids don’t.

 

[Klay23]

All joking aside...don’t waste another round of Ammo.

Get 1-2 day training...it’s the only guaranteed way.

the rest are band aids which will fall off sooner or later

every one has great fundamentals on X caliber....give them a magnum and they have a shotgun pattern.

Proper fundamentals cross all calibers and platforms, band aids don’t.

Set for the 27th of this month. Might have to waste 5 rds though...

 

[Klay23]

I’m reading Mr Galli’s book now as well. Only 30pages in but will read before going back to the range, ha

 

[Klay23]

After reading the first 40-45 pages. One thing is clear. I am not lined up with my bore. How is this accomplished with sitting beside the gun on a bench? Would I be better to get behind the bench instead of beside it? Thinking out loud

 

[Dthomas3523]

The good news is, with good, consistent ammo your vertical spread is minimal. Excellent! That narrows things quite a lot.

Horizontal spread comes from not catching and adjusting for variations in wind ... sometimes more than you'd expect, even at a hundred yards.

You can make a lot of progress compensating with slight shades and favors without clicking.

Wind would have to be about 20mph at full value to move .2 mils.

Wind is almost never and issue at 100yds.

 

[Klay23]

Wind would have to be about 20mph at full value to move .2 mils.

Wind is almost never and issue at 100yds.

Pretty much exactly what I have been told before. Wind at 100yds is nil

 

[Shootin Stuff]

Would I be better to get behind the bench instead of beside it?

Yes. Square up behind your rifle, buttstock should end up somewhere on your chest close to centreline. Most benches are the wrong shape, but if your RO wont let you lay in the dirt then you can do a sort of modified standing prone behind the bench.

 

[Klay23]

Yes. Square up behind your rifle, buttstock should end up somewhere on your chest close to centreline. Most benches are the wrong shape, but if your RO wont let you lay in the dirt then you can do a sort of modified standing prone behind the bench.

We can do what we want. It’s outside and you’re on your own.

 

[Shootin Stuff]

We can do what we want. It’s outside and you’re on your own.

Disclaimer, I am not an instructor.

Prone is by far the most stable position.

Get square behind the rifle, buttstock on your collarbone and as close to centreline as you can.

Get comfortable, any muscle strain in the prone is from a bad position.

Play with bipod/bag height until you feel like you can go to sleep there.

NPA NPA NPA, close your eyes and take a couple of breaths, if the reticle moves then re build position and do it again until it doesn't.

Dry fire at the range, before starting a string of fire and between strings while you let the barrel cool.

Focus on breathing and the perfect trigger press every dry fire and live fire, if you mis the timing then take another breath and try again next cycle.

Watch where your reticle moves after firing, that will tell you a lot about what you are/aren't doing correctly.


Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

 

[Klay23]

Based on my experience this is very true... shooting off of some benches inhibits/prevents the ability to get behind the rifle.

On one of my first outings with a LMT MWS, shooting from a bench and sitting by the side, I had a series of 5 shot groups that were horizontal stringing to the right of the point of aim. I was sitting by the side of the bench and I was not able to position the butt of the rifle on my collar bone. The butt was more positioned closer to my shoulder/arm socket. As a result, the recoil of the rifle was enough to cause the point of aim to shift to the right before the bullet left the barrel.

Once I changed position and got behind the rifle, centered up, with the butt on my clavicle as close to my center line as possible, the groups all tightened up with no more stringing...

This is exactly is what I was fighting. Appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this. Looking forward to some real training too though

 

[mattr25]

After reading the first 40-45 pages. One thing is clear. I am not lined up with my bore. How is this accomplished with sitting beside the gun on a bench? Would I be better to get behind the bench instead of beside it? Thinking out loud

A lot of ranges have shooting tables that are shaped like a T. This encourages you to sit on one side and set the rifle up in the middle. This is not a great idea in my opinion. I set my rifle up in the very center of the table towards the back so I can sit directly behind the gun. I was reading back through the fundamentals of marksmanship(in the stickies) last night and ran across the section on identifying misses. While breathing misses tend to be vertical spreads when shooting prone they can be horizontal when shooting from a bench. Especially if your form is off.