Hornady 4DOF users - how are you liking this?

[nfoley]

Just wanted to get some feedback on you guys using the Hornady 4DOF solver - if you are using this how have your results been like compared with what you were previously using.
I have played a little with the online calculator and getting numbers telling me I am not doing it correctly - having to get the Axial Form Factor down around 0.9 to get close to real numbers. Not sure what I am doing wrong but one thing I notice is I cannot find where to enter the discrepency for 100 yd zero. For example, if your group is 0.25" high at 100 I believe you are supposed to be able to put that in somewhere?
I spoke with one of the guys that was from Hornady at a match about 6 months ago at length, he was very knowledgeable and had me really excited to try this out. I think it would be a good idea to have a video tutorial on this - anyone know if one exists?

 

[_Windrider_]

I don’t think there is an input for zero offset. There is a video out there somewhere, if I am not mistaken instead of inputting the offset hornady has you calculate the true zero range based on your offset. So if Target is at 100 yds and zero is 3 inches high, your true zero is 91 yards. Totally made that up but you get the point. You have to calculate it yourself.

 

[_Windrider_]

Found it

 

[nfoley]

Thanks! That was the guy I spoke with back at the New Mexico match.
Looks like you could do this same approach on Shooter, just changing the zero range until you get an exact match of your data.

 

[Christopher Rance]

Found it

I've never seen that method of zeroing before. Interesting.

 

[_Windrider_]

I've never seen that method of zeroing before. Interesting.

Well if you use a Calculator its done for you.....usually. this is why it asks for a zero offset in the zero conditions. even though you tell it you zeroed at 100 yards but your group is 6 inches low, your zero is actually farther than 100. you can do it this way and put the exact number and the offset to zero or put in your actual offset. without it though, your drops will be off by the offset.

 

[mustang-cars]

I’ve had the best luck with Hornady’s 4DOF. I just make sure I true the ballistics out to 1000 yards by adjusting the axial form factor to match my real world DOPE. Once you get the correct axial form number you always use that number and just adjust the environmental factors. I’ve used JBM before and I’m always off somehow.

 

[isofahunter]

Follow the instructions in the video and you should have solid results. I have 3 rifles set up and working on adding more. I have had great results, but you have to follow the instructions to a T.

 

[LastShot300]

Nice video and very informative, good narrative too. As a practical tip for those running Coldbore, use the True Zero Range feature if you want to know what you real zero is. Anyway, it accounts for all the ballistics info as talked in the video and spits out the TZR, which is what the program really uses internally for all calculations, this coming from Patagonia.

 

[Bigwheels]

I just downloaded it and it looks good except I can't find a scope click correction anywhere. I checked it out with all the same enviromentals as AB, and after I made the correction for my scope clicks they were the same. I would have thought that a program with this kind of intricacy they would have included that.

 

[Steel+Killer]

What if you have a scope like the Razor Gen 2 that has an infinite zero adjustment shouldn’t/couldn’t you just make sure you are dead nuts zero at 100yds? That’s one of the features I really like about the Razor Gen 2 you aren’t limited by 1/10th mil or 1/4 MOA when zeroing.

 

[_Windrider_]

What if you have a scope like the Razor Gen 2 that has an infinite zero adjustment shouldn’t/couldn’t you just make sure you are dead nuts zero at 100yds? That’s one of the features I really like about the Razor Gen 2 you aren’t limited by 1/10th mil or 1/4 MOA when zeroing.

Then just put your zero range as 100.

 

[Steel+Killer]

One thing I noticed is when setting the DOF it utilizes the built in compass on the phone and lets you point the phone towards the target and hit the capture button to save it, but when setting the DOW it doesn’t you have to drag the pointer towards the direction the wind is coming from, but the bullet icon is always pointing toward 0* even though say you just set the DOF towards 270* shouldn’t the bullet icon on the DOW screen reflect that or the real question is why not let you just set the DOW just like it lets you set the DOF (point the phone and hit capture) Anybody else understand this?

 

[Sil17sd]

One thing I noticed is when setting the DOF it utilizes the built in compass on the phone and lets you point the phone towards the target and hit the capture button to save it, but when setting the DOW it doesn’t you have to drag the pointer towards the direction the wind is coming from, but the bullet icon is always pointing toward 0* even though say you just set the DOF towards 270* shouldn’t the bullet icon on the DOW screen reflect that or the real question is why not let you just set the DOW just like it lets you set the DOF (point the phone and hit capture) Anybody else understand this?

I have noticed that also. If it's being fed live data via Bluetooth Kestrel all you need to enter is firing azimuth. When I use it without the kestrel I simply enter my wind guess. I know that it can't correctly calculate coriolis without correct firing azimuth but I don't shoot without my kestrel at distance where the coriolis comes into play anyway. I actually really like using it this way inside 1k yds and have had a lot of success with it. It's just quicker to drag the arrow and enter your guess on wind speed. Basically your giving it a clock based wind call like "10mph from 3oclock"

 

[Steel+Killer]

I have noticed that also. If it's being fed live data via Bluetooth Kestrel all you need to enter is firing azimuth. When I use it without the kestrel I simply enter my wind guess. I know that it can't correctly calculate coriolis without correct firing azimuth but I don't shoot without my kestrel at distance where the coriolis comes into play anyway. I actually really like using it this way inside 1k yds and have had a lot of success with it. It's just quicker to drag the arrow and enter your guess on wind speed. Basically your giving it a clock based wind call like "10mph from 3oclock"

Thanks so on the DOW screen you should always just consider the bullet icon always pointing toward your 12oclock DOF/Target. Still seems like they should just let you capture it the same way you do the DOF. Same way you do with a Kestrel, but I get that its easier to just drag the pointer and guess.

 

[Sil17sd]

Thanks so on the DOW screen you should always just consider the bullet icon always pointing toward your 12oclock DOF/Target. Still seems like they should just let you capture it the same way you do the DOF. Same way you do with a Kestrel, but I get that its easier to just drag the pointer and guess.

That's how I've been using it. They should really change the wind direction screen to a clock. When you give it a wind direction of say 90* that is not the heading of the wind, it is wind angle in relation to where the bullet is pointed. In other words 90 is not due east it is 3oclock. So yes 0 is 12oclock.

Try this: go into the app and enter a wind direction of 90 and speed, then start changing your firing azimuth and watch as the wind correction does NOT change because it's still coming from 90* of the azimuth. It is definitely confusing to have degrees in there instead of a clock.

 

[7mmFanBoy]

Add more bullets once start using it becomes pretty fast. Nice put milling feature input size then scroll off course go down .1 mil .

 

[Christopher Rance]

Nice video and very informative, good narrative too. As a practical tip for those running Coldbore, use the True Zero Range feature if you want to know what you real zero is. Anyway, it accounts for all the ballistics info as talked in the video and spits out the TZR, which is what the program really uses internally for all calculations, this coming from Patagonia.

Is there any tutorial videos or walk throughs for ColdBore? It’s a robust ballistic program and I’d like to make sure I’m hitting on all the right notes and not missing out on any key inputs.

 

[Lowlight]

Download the Coldbore Manual, it's very robust, and it has a very good manual you can download from inside the program

 

[_Windrider_]

Haven’t watched this but Hornady just posted this on the tube.

 

[eicas]

I was initially really excited about it in the fall when I started shooting 208amax and 225eldm’s out of my .300wm. Two things slowed me down. First, there seems to be a number of different videos from Hornady on it, each slightly different in how to set it up. That confused me a bit...although I am easily confused. Second, the ability to get out beyond a couple hundred yards now in my neck of the woods is hampered by knee deep snow. I just dont scoot along on those shoeshoes like I used to...

Thanks for the new vid links. Need to watch and discect those...

 

[_Windrider_]

One issue i have is not all of us have access to 3-800 yards. I do at my range BUT, we are not allowed to go downrange on any lane except the 100 yd lane sooooooooooooo, WTF am i supposed to do?

 

[eicas]

Bribe the RO with First Class snacks?

 

[rocklinux]

My only complain is I wish they had a larger bullet selection and I'd use it instead of my Kestrel. I shoot ELDs occasionally but not exclusively.

 

[_Windrider_]

My only complain is I wish they had a larger bullet selection and I'd use it instead of my Kestrel. I shoot ELDs occasionally but not exclusively.

THey are adding bullets as the data is collected. Takes a lot of work and time to shoot everything through doppler and compile data.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

I suppose you just have to use the basic calculator if they don’t have 4dof data for RDF’s let say. When I tried to calculate my own bc I couldn’t get the 4dof to work but the basic calculator seemed to work fine

 

[_Windrider_]

I suppose you just have to use the basic calculator if they don’t have 4dof data for RDF’s let say. When I tried to calculate my own bc I couldn’t get the 4dof to work but the basic calculator seemed to work fine

4DOF doesnt use BC.

 

[rocklinux]

I suppose you just have to use the basic calculator if they don’t have 4dof data for RDF’s let say. When I tried to calculate my own bc I couldn’t get the 4dof to work but the basic calculator seemed to work fine

Yeah, I've used the basic calc. It doesn't add spin drift or aerodynamic jump from when I checked it last. Otherwise the G7 in the basic calc is decent but no different than using my Kestrel. They line up exact w/o spin, coriollis (spelling I never get right), or aero.

 

[LastShot300]

Have been using since its debut and it has not overly impressed me so far. It's no better than any other 3DOF program, the real value is the Doppler data, the "4DOF" actually adds nothing special to make it any more accurate than JBM though. Hornady gives a nice touch with adding the "4" element and their explanation on how it works but other than Aero Jump there is nothing worth its salt. I'm not stating it is not a good program (it is) just commenting on the over hyped claim of having a 4 dof. On the other hand, Hornady did a great work with their educational material and it's really worth checking out. Overall it's a great free program, better than others but it's purpose is quite limited in scope lacking much needed features, placing it in the same line of Lapua's program.

 

[morganlamprecht]

One issue i have is not all of us have access to 3-800 yards. I do at my range BUT, we are not allowed to go downrange on any lane except the 100 yd lane sooooooooooooo, WTF am i supposed to do?

same way you would any other calculator...shoot small targets and tweak Form Factor (instead of BC) to match real world POI

 

[_Windrider_]

Have been using since its debut and it has not overly impressed me so far. It's no better than any other 3DOF program, the real value is the Doppler data, the "4DOF" actually adds nothing special to make it any more accurate than JBM though. Hornady gives a nice touch with adding the "4" element and their explanation on how it works but other than Aero Jump there is nothing worth its salt. I'm not stating it is not a good program (it is) just commenting on the over hyped claim of having a 4 dof. On the other hand, Hornady did a great work with their educational material and it's really worth checking out. Overall it's a great free program, better than others but it's purpose is quite limited in scope lacking much needed features, placing it in the same line of Lapua's program.

i think i tend to agree with you. i havent used it at the range yet, just messing with it and comparing to AB. there are some big differences between those two so i will be interested to see what actually happens. i think the interface needs some work, navigating it is kind of a PITA. and for sure they need to fix the wind stuff. They should be referncing clock positions not degrees. it could be confusing.

 

[isofahunter]

I do not find the wind interface at all confusing set your firing azimuth and then the set the angle the wind will be interacting with the bullet.

In my experience with it if you follow the setup instructions you will have solid shooting solutions. If you do not you will end up with poor output like my shooting buddy that knows more than Hornady does when it comes to Ballistics. Crap input Crap output.

 

[_Windrider_]

I do not find the wind interface at all confusing set your firing azimuth and then the set the angle the wind will be interacting with the bullet.

In my experience with it if you follow the setup instructions you will have solid shooting solutions. If you do not you will end up with poor output like my shooting buddy that knows more than Hornady does when it comes to Ballistics. Crap input Crap output.

do you say wind is 270 at full value or 9 oclock full value? someone could easily have their DOF be 100 and then they get their wind and instead of putting in 270 they put in 010 as the wind (100-90) because that is the same thing but really they should just input 9 oclock, who cares what the compass direction is. its just a small gripe but the software we use should correlate to the language we speak so we dont have to translate.

 

[isofahunter]

do you say wind is 270 at full value or 9 oclock full value? someone could easily have their DOF be 100 and then they get their wind and instead of putting in 270 they put in 010 as the wind (100-90) because that is the same thing but really they should just input 9 oclock, who cares what the compass direction is. its just a small gripe but the software we use should correlate to the language we speak so we dont have to translate.

If you used the wind from icon (right of the number)I do not know how you would make that mistake. Look at picture of bullet and if your spotter calls 9 o'clock you move the the arrow to the 9 o'clock position (270) and capture and it takes you back to the solution screen. Enter solution and fire.

 

[_Windrider_]

If you used the wind from icon (right of the number)I do not know how you would make that mistake. Look at picture of bullet and if your spotter calls 9 o'clock you move the the arrow to the 9 o'clock position (270) and capture and it takes you back to the solution screen. Enter solution and fire.

i guess. but why not just make it say 9 oclock? whatever, im not debating it. it is what it is, just giving my feedback.

 

[pell1203]

Question/Clarification/Suggestion -- Interface defficiency????

Supported atmospheric pressure units in Kestrel meters are output selectable to one of the following values:

• Standard Units: in/Hg or psi
• Metric Units: hPa or mb (mm/Hg NOT an available option)

The Hornady 4DOF calculator only accepts pressure inputs as follows:

• Standard Units: in/Hg
• Metric Units: mm/Hg

Therefore, when using Standard Units, outputs/inputs between Kestrel and 4DOF app can be matched using in/Hg. However, when the Hornady 4DOF app is used in metric input mode, atmospheric pressure output from the Kestrel cannot be mapped into the 4DOF calculator as required pressure input value in mm/Hg units is not supported by Kestrel meters.

Seems like Kestrel functionality needs to be extended to support mm/Hg as an output or the Hornady 4DOF needs to accept either hpa or mb as Metric input units.

Am I missing something or is this a significant interface mismatch for those using Metric option?

 

[Steel+Killer]

The interface definitely needs a little streamlining especially trying to adjust the axial form factor seems like if they had it and the elevation on the same page you could just tweek it until it matched your actual dope instead of having to go back and forth.

 

[Chalkeye]

Would be great to have more granular control of units (my gripe with just about every ballistic calculator) - e.g. when using metric, I don't know my barrel twist in cm!

 

[pell1203]

Would be great to have more granular control of units (my gripe with just about every ballistic calculator) - e.g. when using metric, I don't know my barrel twist in cm!

Chalkeye, it's easy to convert twist rate from inches to either cm or mm using conversion factors below:

1 in = 2.54 cm or
1 in = 25.4 mm

For example, given a 1 to 8" twist.

To convert 8 in to cm:
8 in * (2.54 cm/in) = 20.32 cm, Resulting twist rate in cm = 1 in 20.32 cm

To convert 8 in to mm:
8 in * (25.4 mm/in) = 203.2 mm, Resulting twist rate in mm = 1 in 203.2 mm

 

[Chalkeye]

Well, you completely missed my point, but yes, sure

I am saying it would be much nicer to have fine control over which units are used where. Many of us range in meters, do wind in mph for example. A metric / imperial "catch all" setting invariably ends up in having to do conversion maths for one thing or another.

 

[pell1203]

You're right! I completely missed your point... was just trying to help, not offend. My apologies.

 

[Bigwheels]

I have a question about truing this app.
I'm using a Magnetospeed for MV & have many other ballistics software on my phone and FFS on a PDA. AB with the CDF automatically goes to a MV correction & Blaine Fields of FFS also told me years ago to adjust the MV 1st.
So shouldn't I tweak the MV from my last outing @ 942yds to correct the 1-1/4 moa discrepancy & then tweak the Drag at longer ranges if it still doesn't match?
Or is the magnetospeed accurate enough to justify not changing the MV by 2% to correct the discrepancy?
Thanks.

 

[Strike_out]

Episode

I have a question about truing this app.
I'm using a Magnetospeed for MV & have many other ballistics software on my phone and FFS on a PDA. AB with the CDF automatically goes to a MV correction & Blaine Fields of FFS also told me years ago to adjust the MV 1st.
So shouldn't I tweak the MV from my last outing @ 942yds to correct the 1-1/4 moa discrepancy & then tweak the Drag at longer ranges if it still doesn't match?
Or is the magnetospeed accurate enough to justify not changing the MV by 2% to correct the discrepancy?
Thanks.

check out The Everyday Sniper podcast
Episode 21 start at minute 20
He covers this really well. I listened a few times ended up taking notes.

 

[Bigwheels]

Ok Thanks.

 

[Bigwheels]

I listened to the podcast and did pick up some info on what I want to know but not all of it. I understand that if you need to change the DK by more than .010 +/- you are getting out of bounds so to speak. Does that also apply to MV, and BC?
Example. My 300WM with 230 Hybrid TGT. Magnetospeed says ave. of 20 rnds was 2840 fps and impacts were 1-1/4 moa higher than predicted for conditions @ 942yds. I used the calibration function in AB and using the CDF it only gave the option for MV. This changed to 2915.54 fps. That's a roughly 2.5% difference.
With Trasol the difference was lower. 2890 FPS did the trick. For some reason I couldn't get it to change the solution when changing the Drag??? IDK.
Now with FFS (DeltaIII) I could change the MV about the same, or change the DK to .512 IIIRC. I put it back to .5, and adjusted the MV to 2914 to get it to match up. Either method gave the same results but the MV change was a bigger percentage of change to achieve the same result.
Is the 10% rule of thumb applicable here as well? As a rule of thumb? Just trying to spend less ammo chasing the numbers around. Might have to change the BC as well to get everything to line up. Really need to get Cold Bore...
Unfortunately we got over 2' of snow where I go to shoot at range, and it will be some time before I'll be able to get back up there safely to try more range, & see how it tracks with the corrections.

 

[shipereyes445]

From what I can tell, Barnes, Lapua, Sierra, Hornady, and Berger all have custom drag tables for their bullets. These drag tables are expensive and time consuming to create, and can be even more expensive and time consuming to provide technical support for. Both of these may be factors in why only Lapua (so far) has released their tables, and why Lapua only released the drag tables for a subset of their bullets.

And is Lapua really still providing custom drag tables for their bullets? The links from the accurate shooter articles on it are dead, and there is no link from the Lapua tech specs page. A working link would be helpful. It makes a lot less sense to criticize Hornady if Lapua has pulled their tables.

The rounding errors that crop up going from trajectories to custom drag curves do require a bit of engineering finesse, but rounding and instrumental errors are also present in the raw radar data. Some engineering skill should be able to reproduce Hornady's tables with comparable accuracy to their original ones. But I can't blame Hornady for not wanting their tech support lines clogged with callers who have no idea what to do with that data just to appease a small percentage of shooters who actually know how to use it.

But as a matter of fundamental fairness, calls for Hornady to release their drag tables should also include calls for Berger, Barnes, and Sierra to do the same (maybe Lapua also if theirs have been pulled).

 

[waveslayer]

This may be a dumb question, how do you save a load data for a bullet that is not listed? I see the calculate BC option, but I'm unable to save the results to a specific profile

 

[Gungnir Precision]

Ran 4DOF this weekend on a virgin barrel with the first five rounds used for muzzle velo. Impacts were on the money out to 900. Been very impressed with this app so far.

 

[Strike_out]

We’re you running a bullet that is in the library?
If not maybe it’s not really as important to the program as I thought initially.

Ran 4DOF this weekend on a virgin barrel with the first five rounds used for muzzle velo. Impacts were on the money out to 900. Been very impressed with this app so far.

 

[pell1203]

This may be a dumb question, how do you save a load data for a bullet that is not listed? I see the calculate BC option, but I'm unable to save the results to a specific profile

waveslayer, If bullet is not listed you are limited to using the BC calculator only as there is no doppler data for the bullet available. Stuff below applies directly only if you are using the free Hornady iPhone app. but I suspect other existing versions of calculator will work similarly.

I was able to save a new "Favorite" profile using a bullet I made up that was not available on Hornady's list. Here is what I did:

1. Opened iPhone app
2. Selected "Standard Ballistics Calculator"
3. Selected "Favorites"
4. Made sure "BC Calculator" was selected (lettering displayed on red background)
5. Tapped "+" sign in upper right corner
6. Provided Title, Rifle, and Optics info, and expanded "Bullet/Ammo" menu by tapping field
7. On Select Bullet screen, tapped "Enter BC Value" under the "Don't see your bullet listed?" line
8. On newly displayed dialog screen, enter Bullet Name, Weight, BC, select drag function, and hit "Set'"
9. This returns you to the "Add Favorite" screen. Finish entering load and rifle info, select I/O options and choose Results Units
10. Hit "SAVE" on upper right hand of screen, this will save the data along with the bullet info you provided

You will now be able to reload the saved Favorite by tapping it to bring up a selection menu that allows you "Select, Edit, Clone, or Delete" the entry. If you choose "Select" the saved rifle/bullet data you entered will be loaded for use on the BC Calculator.

Hopefully this is what you were asking clarification for. If not, simply ignore it!