Hornady 4DOF vs. Everything else

[Sticks]

I've only found one thread in here about the 4DOF. I was initially looking for how it factors in turret click error and it appears by all the other threads in SH, it is not the go to ballistics app.

My experience, (though I am sure this is user error) despite multiple attempts to get a solid zero range, even tried Zero Angle, then moving on to Axial Form Factor using a 5 shot POI at 750 still put me outside their "1.0 +/-.1 - check your data values and try again". So I did, Kestral 5700, 3 altitude verification velocity with an SD of 4.?....Yup, still just not doing it, but close with maxing out the form factor. The following weeks come up gave me an impact 8" low @ 750, back to verifying data...

Getting ready to fire them, and bought Strelock Pro. Learning that one right now.

4DOF not the best option?

Kind of surprised there is not more talk about 4DOF, especially when Frank/Lowlight requires that at his training class.

 

[eicas]

I’ve just found the app cumbersome compared to Ballisic. I’ve messed with it a bit, but am just more comfortable with what is familiar.

 

[Lowlight]

I don’t require 4DOF we recommend it because it’s free and works with many people using 6.5CM and the Hornady Ammo.

How about posting your inputs ?

What is your non software dope at 750

Don’t post random musings and act like it’s the softwares fault while invoking my name like I force people to use it.

Details matter

For stuff to be off with any software at 750 it’s you

 

[LastShot300]

For stuff to be off with any software at 750 it’s you

Most likely

 

[Long Range 338]

the 4DOF app has been pretty good in my experience, but really does its best with their own bullets - and the few others they have the doppler info for. If you follow their set up instructions in a detailed manner (they have videos to show you how) you should get it right.

They do not have a setting that accounts for adjustment error in your scope turrets so if that is an issue you may have use another app that does. Have you done a test to verify your scope is tracking accurately? Lots and lots of how to setup your app info here on the hide but it does require som homework on your part. If you don't feed your app accurate info, none of them will be correct. Garbage in = garbage out.

You are on the right track here you need to give us all of your specific data or its pure speculation.

 

[Sticks]

I don’t require 4DOF we recommend it because it’s free and works with many people using 6.5CM and the Hornady Ammo.

How about posting your inputs ?

What is your non software dope at 750

Don’t post random musings and act like it’s the softwares fault while invoking my name like I force people to use it.

Details matter

For stuff to be off with any software at 750 it’s you

Sorry, I edited my post to remove the subjective comment.

Now as far as being off that much, that is why I stated - though I am sure this is user error - in my post.

Not trying to bash Hornady or the app, just trying to understand why a forum in majority dedicated to LR rifle shooting does not have more discussion on the 4DOF. End of the day, the stuff that works is what get's talked about, the stuff that does not, fades back in the shadows.

I don't know what you mean by "non software dope" . I don't have the training, education or skill to do up a dope card longhand - thus all my come ups and windage are done by some sort of software.

6.5 Grendel;
Altitude 4866
Ambient 60*
Humidity 40%
Pressure 25.13
Wind 5mph @ 21
Azimuth 169
Angle of fire -1
123gr ELD [.255 G7]
MV 2510
Zero @ 98
Sight Height 2.82
Twist 1:8r
Reset Axial to 1.0
Elevation click value .1028

Result for 750y is up 6.9 mil, right .17 mil.

POI .2 mil under 9" plate target (hold over put it low on plate second shot)

6.5 PRC;
Altitude 4866
Ambient 60*
Humidity 40%
Pressure 25.13
Wind 5mph @ 21
Azimuth 169
Angle of fire -1
Hornady 147 ELD [.351 G7]
MV 3020
Zero @ 98
Sight Height 1.8
Twist 1:8r
Axial 1.1
Elevation click value .0982
Vertical offset .22u
Horizontal offset .13r

Result for 750 up 4.0 mil, right .08 mil

POI low .25 mil. Holdover put it low on same plate.

First JBM Ballistics calc to get an idea if my Grendel would do what I wanted it to do. Then Kestral w/ AB, then Hornady since I am only shooting Hornady ELD in one weight or another. After both Hornady and AB were both cookin' my noodle trying to get dialed in past 600, I started running the same data in multiple apps and was surprised to find a lot of variation in the end result.

I shoot in only one monthly match, and it's a 1 shot per target, hit or miss, move on. I am trying to get to that level of making the first round hits from 200-900 on 1.5 MOA average targets. Out to 600, I am fairly confident and it's usually left or right misses. Past there, then I am off the map with high/low shots, some apparently in the next zip code.

Until I can find a local class, and get the time off, the best I can do is find out what stuff works for the majority, and keep practicing while sponging up help and suggestions from other shooters that have the know how.

 

[Lowlight]

What was looking for is the corrected shot info

What I guess is 6.9 at 750 and you saying it’s .2 low, so you need 7.1 ?

That is the number we need the actual impact on target so we can correct to that. The wrong info is just for reference to know what not to use.

I would bet, 1st the BC is too high at only 2500fps for that Bullet. So the correction would be for that.

The other data is good we can build a chart for it.

We cannot positively account for holds and favors with out an actual adjustment value. Saying you are holding the top of the plate is less than helpful. Why we want to talk in the values we are using.

What you have is “try dope” it’s just a starting point. Once you’re on the plate or close enough for a fine tune adjustment. You throw the try dope out and record the adjustment to center on the scope.

Example, try dope = 6.9
Actual is 7.1

Now can fix the curve for 7.1

 

[Long Range 338]

What Lowlight is saying is that you only use the apps or ballistic programs as a starting point to get you on target, then you use your actual real world data to 'true' your software to match your actual real world results.

Also Ballistic Coefficients are not a set number, they are specific to your rifle and shooting conditions. The manufacturers list the BC depending on velocity. If you were shooting the same ELD bullet at 3000 fps it has a different BC than shooting it at 2500 fps.

Here is a link to Hornadys videos, check out the one for 4DOF 'How To'. If you are like me, a picture is worth a thousand words and much easier to learn.

https://www.hornady.com/support/videos#!/

 

[Lesco Brandon]

I was pretty frustrated using the 4DOF application the last time I was out. I am human and humans make mistakes.
6.5 CM
Hornady 140g ELD match
47.7g R26 @ 2909 FPS
Zero range 100 yards
Sight height 1.5
Twist 8
altitude 1100
temp 54
humidity 83
pressure 28.9
shooting angle 0

at 900 yards I was shooting low at the suggested 6 mils of elevation. I actually had to adjust beyond the axial form factor to get on steel
I have used this app before out to 1000 yards and thought it was pretty much dead on using a completely different load (H4350 41.8g pushing the 140 ELD match @ 2750) I'm not sure what was different this time.

 

[abn31c]

Ive been using 4dof and have been happy with it I get weather info from a separate app and manually enter it. I just rebarreled and got my dope right, but last time out i was .2 high from 400 to 976. I thought after 150 rnds my barrel was done speeding up but apparently not. Having been happy with the free app I'm looking at the 5700. I just dont know if I'm smart enough to run it. I think the Hornady is a great app considering the price.

 

[Sticks]

I've watched them before trying to glean some insight on how to deal with scope correction based on a tall target. I will watch the videos again. I've tried to follow the directions the best I can to get my settings.

That I have been able to find, I can't tweak the BC in 4DOF, so that puts me down to their standard calc with the Grendels. I don't understand why my PRC, which is pushing the 147s at 3k. woud be so off. .25mil correction is extreme - quick numbers show a 70fps reduction to get closer to zero, which moves my 200y POI around .7"...this is where my brain starts to struggle. When I fix the longer range POI, I start having closer targets get missed, at least on pen and paper.

What really needs to happen is to find a LR rife class within a few hours of Denver, and the coin to take myself and the girls. I can't help them if I don't have my own house in order, and infinetly better to have a 3rd party do the teaching.

 

[Long Range 338]

I would start at the very beginning and go thru the app step by step. I entered your data for the 6.5 Grendel and it came out to 7.1 mils at 750 yards (which is what I understand you are trying to get to). I've attached screen shots in hopes it will be helpful. The 4DOF doesn't have a method to address the error in your turrets so you will have to play with the muzzle velocity and form factor (or BC in the regular 3DOF version) to try to adjust the numbers until they line up with your real world data. You show .1028 mils per click so your actual drop should be more than you are dialing (lets just round to 3%) So if you are needing 7.1 your turrets are actually moving 7.3 mils. It sounds like your BC and MV both need to be backed down. What is your actual drop from 100 yards to 750 yards?

 

[Ledzep]

Yeah on the contrary, I've experienced great success with the 4dof app. One of the biggest issues I've had with BC and "zero range" based apps is that they just don't track when I change elevation. At the home range, work pretty decent all the time. Take a road trip to Vegas or Texas, etc... and all the sudden I have considerable apparent zero shift error, along with nagging inconsistencies at longer ranges (Strelok and Trasol being the two main apps I've used before 4dof). Endless tuning of form factors and whatever else.

With 4dof, using zero angle, I was able to zero at 1800ft, 80% humidity, 90 degrees, then go shoot matches at 5000-6000ft dry, 50's with the same zero input, then come home to 2700ft 30% humidity, and track the daily weather and haven't had to redo zero unless I swap barrels.

With correct muzzle velocity, bullet (this is a real limitation if your bullet isn't in their library), scope over bore, zero angle, and weather inputs I have had nothing but windage misses, now that I think on it. Slightly off left or right side of the plate, and plenty of 1st round hits out to 1200+.

In fact I was shooting a few weeks ago at 1680yd with my 6.5 creedmoor barrel and was only .1-.2 mils off for elevation at that range. I'm sure by then some of that was MV spread playing a part. Went 2 for 10 on a 10" plate... scaring the hell out of it with the other 8.

Something that may help the OP, and was recommended above, is to re-create the profile and make sure everything is correct. Also make sure to spam the "save" button any time you change anything.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

The accuracy of the app notwithstanding, some of the problems you are experiencing with 4DOF is why it isn't more popular. It is just cumbersome to use. The user interface isn't intuitive.

 

[Racer88]

I had not even heard of the Hornady 4DOF app until now. I just downloaded it. Played with it a bit. Of course, it's new to me... but, I find it more cumbersome than Strelok Pro. I will say the user interface is clean and attractive. But, it's not as comprehensive as Strelok Pro.

One (of many) thing Strelok has over 4DOF (that I can see) is not just an extensive bullet library, but an extensive CARTRIDGE library. It also appears that, with 4DOF, I have to enter the rifle and cartridge combination individually. By contrast, with Strelok, I enter the rifle once, and then just pick the cartridge I'm using at the moment from a saved set of cartridges I've assigned to that rifle.

One nifty feature of Strelok is the "zero offset" input for various cartridges on the same rifle.

Strelok isn't as "pretty," but I find it more intuitive and user-friendly (and more comprehensive).

These are admittedly very early impressions based on a very limited exposure to 4DOF. I really need more time with it. It offers a $1 "HUD" upgrade. No idea what that is. Might be worth a buck just to see, eh?

 

[Sticks]

I thank everyone for the setup guidance. I have decided that I am going to mindwipe my rifle selections in 4DOF and start fresh, step by step, and try one more time to get this thing dialed in.

Micrometer, fresh batteries in the Kestral, read and re-read the manual and watch the videos a few more times.

It may be that my optic selection for my rifles just won't let me get it nailed down, even though I am less than 2% error factor on the vertical.

 

[JMcBurn]

Honestly, I and a few others have had a very good time using the 4DOF app. Setting a really good zero in the conditions you are actually shooting in has a big effect, but that zero that you set seems to track really well at every range, even when you shoot at the 100 yard and it appears your zero is different from your home range. It is works well enough to hold waterline at multiple ranges across the east coast with the dope it generates after truing for 4 rifles and like 8 different bullet and powder combos.

 

[Long Range 338]

Hornady just released this video for the multi HUD that 4DOF now offers - in the paid version

 

[LastShot300]

Nothing new, just a rehash of what many other apps have been doing for years. Yet 4DOF is not as good as some others. Still not getting the idea behind this from Hornady.

 

[Ledzep]

Please expand on "not as good".

 

[Long Range 338]

Please expand on "not as good".

Agreed. Hard to criticize a free app...

 

[Lowlight]

especially when the other apps are 3DOF

The only thing lacking is the library but that is because they Doppler stuff before it gets added

 

[Ledzep]

That's where I'm coming from. As long as your bullets are in the library for the 4dof doppler data, you're in there like swimwear. Give it accurate inputs, and it gives extremely accurate outputs to ranges I wouldn't have believed 5 years ago. But I do know it's a small team that works on the app, and those guys are also busy doing a multitude of other things so they don't have the time to peruse through all the gun boards to find what people are bitching about on their app. So I always ask people what they don't like and pass it along so they know.

 

[LastShot300]

Please expand on "not as good".

I mean being feature rich compared to many others. Never grasped it so far, but will take a look to this new version and we'll see. In BC mode its accuracy is standard, not worth to write Mom about. With their Doppler data, yes, it is much better, but others are also as good while having much more features and great performance on the far side. I have compared it side by side to other apps on the field so I know what I'm talking about and I cannot care less about how many people is actually working on it, not my concern. BTW, it's not bitching, it's called user feedback.

 

[LastShot300]

Agreed. Hard to criticize a free app...

Why not? Any particular reason? I wasn't talking about price if you haven't noticed. I was talking about value.

 

[Long Range 338]

Why not? Any particular reason? I wasn't talking about price if you haven't noticed. I was talking about value.

Hornady has gone to the effort to put out a free app that is a step above other 3DOF apps. Of course the doppler data is limited to their bullets and a few others from other manufacturers. Worst case scenario you can use the 3DOF version and its similar to other apps. Your other options are to buy the CDM for each bullet and use it with AB or shoot Lapua ammo/components and use their 6DOF app, or Trasol.

My personal experience with 4DOF has been pretty good overall. The UI may not be as intuitive as other apps but by no means is it difficult to use or lacking in features. My only criticism is that there is no way to enter scope error - this may be able to be accomplished by using the axial form factor, I haven't played with this too much as it has been pretty close. I don't think anybody here minds some feedback and would even be happy to pass it along as I'm sure Frank has conversations occasionally. General statements like "not as good" or "it sucks" aren't particularly helpful nor able to be resolved without more specifics.

Still not getting the idea behind this from Hornady.

Is this in reference to the multi HUD or the app in general? The video showed a couple of great scenarios where the HUD is particularly useful (comps or training). As far as the app itself, what better way to support the shooting community and sell a buttload of product in the process? Its in Hornady's best interest to make the app successful at this point. If you are shooting 224 Valkyrie, 6CM, 6.5CM, 300PRC, 300NM chances are the Hornady app is one of your best options.

I've got too many apps just because I love to play with them and compare them with each other. 4DOF is definitely top 3. Of course everybody is free to have their own favorite. Merica!

 

[LastShot300]

Worst case scenario you can use the 3DOF version and its similar to other apps. Your other options are to buy the CDM for each bullet and use it with AB or shoot Lapua ammo/components and use their 6DOF app, or Trasol.

I've got too many apps just because I love to play with them and compare them with each other. 4DOF is definitely top 3. Of course everybody is free to have their own favorite. Merica!

 

[isofahunter]

Buy a mil scope figure your mph using BC and go shoot. Fuck dope and data, I learned nothing here.

 

[Ledzep]

BTW, it's not bitching, it's called user feedback.

Nothing new, just a rehash of what many other apps have been doing for years. Yet 4DOF is not as good as some others. Still not getting the idea behind this from Hornady.

Your post is not as good as the others. Fix it. I'm giving you user feedback...

 

[LastShot300]

Your post is not as good as the others. Fix it. I'm giving you user feedback...

well, to each his own. Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others...but for a price.

 

[VanJoe]

ed exposure to 4DOF. I really need more time with it. It offers a $1 "HUD" upgrade. No idea what that is. Might be worth a buck just to see, eh?

Hornady just released this video for the multi HUD that 4DOF now offers - in the paid version

Where are you guys seeing the paid version being offered? I don't see it on either iPhone or Android tablet stores. Don't see an in-app upgrade selection either. Of course I have the get email notifications or whatever turned off so maybe I missed it there. I don't see any updates or alternate paid versions coming up in the app stores either.
Thanks.

 

[Long Range 338]

Its an in app upgrade for the multi HUD. I can't remember if its was $0.99 or $1.99

 

[pell1203]

The upgrade costs $0.99. Make sure you have latest version of Hornady’s 4DOF app.

You access the upgrade by opening the 4DOF app and bringing up the HUD screen as you did before. You then tap the multi-HUD icon in the upper right corner of the screen and if you have not purchased the upgrade before a dialog screen offering it for purchase will be displayed.

The upgrade is well worth the 99 cents!

 

[Sticks]

I can see some value in it. At the same time, it does not take much to adjust your azimuth and range from the main screen either.

 

[VanJoe]

The upgrade costs $0.99. Make sure you have latest version of Hornady’s 4DOF app.

You access the upgrade by opening the 4DOF app and bringing up the HUD screen as you did before. You then tap the multi-HUD icon in the upper right corner of the screen and if you have not purchased the upgrade before a dialog screen offering it for purchase will be displayed.

The upgrade is well worth the 99 cents!

Checked again today and that Icon now is available to select. Don't know why it wasn't there the other day as it looks like it is the same version number. Maybe because I rebooted it? Who knows. Thanks.

 

[VSki]

New to ballistic apps and to the platform:

when inputting range of target into 4DOF or other ballistic apps, is it asking for the true range or the angular adjusted range?

 

[Lowlight]

true range you put the angle in separate

 

[BigdaddyWSM]

I am in process of breaking in a newly barreled 6.5 CM & usually use Streklok pro which I really like, I am a fairly new competitor to long range matches & will be trying the Hornady 4DOF ballistic program with this rifle as I like to geek out on this shit, if anything they put a lot of effort into providing us with a free ballistics app. Hopefully if I enter all my info correctly & it gives me good results I will compare it to my Strelok to see if there is much of a difference. still using my Kestrel 3000 for on the spot weather info inputs. I need to bite the bullet & just buy the 5700 Kestrel with everything loaded already.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I am in process of breaking in a newly barreled 6.5 CM & usually use Streklok pro which I really like, I am a fairly new competitor to long range matches & will be trying the Hornady 4DOF ballistic program with this rifle as I like to geek out on this shit, if anything they put a lot of effort into providing us with a free ballistics app. Hopefully if I enter all my info correctly & it gives me good results I will compare it to my Strelok to see if there is much of a difference. still using my Kestrel 3000 for on the spot weather info inputs. I need to bite the bullet & just buy the 5700 Kestrel with everything loaded already.

i have a 5700 sportsman for sale in the px.

Episode 5 of my podcast i recorded last night, i go into kestrels and ballistic apps a little bit. Ive recently acquired a Hornady Kestrel to replace using strelok pro. I also wasn't a fan of the 4dof interface on the app, but prefer it in the kestrel format. the interface was perfect on strelok pro, but i was tired of using my kestrel for enviro's then inputting the data into my phone for the strelok app. Very little adjusting to the FF, and i got the data on the hornady kestrel to match my trued data on my strelok app for 2 different rifles. The accuracy of 4dof isn't an issue. The interface on the phone app is what you either hate or love. If you have good data input into it regarding your rifle set up, zero range, etc., you will get a good firing solution.