Range Report Hornady/Prime/Federal high SD's and ES's

[blbennett1288]

I have a AIAT with the factory 1:8.2" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. I broke the barrel in as per the AI manual; 3 rounds - clean, 5 rounds - clean, 5 round - clean, 10 rounds - clean. I currently have 390 rounds through the barrel. It has been cleaned once at 310 rounds. I am using a Magnetospeed V3 with CR123 batteries. The bayonet has been cleaned. Results have been with a brake and suppressor.

Pretty much anything I run through it will group well at 100 yards, 0.3-0.6”. I have tried Hornady 140gr ELD-Ms, Prime 130gr, Hornady 140gr BTHP, Federal Gold Medal Berger 130gr. All of these are SDs 15-30 and ES 45-80. Federal I only tried one box of but it was pretty bad. All of the others were multiple boxes.

I got some Copper Creek 139gr Lapua Scenars with Lapua brass and they ran consistently around SD 6-7 ES 20-25 over 80 rounds with temperatures ranging from 55-90deg F.

2/1/19
54deg F
39% Hum
30.9 deg F DP
29.54 in HG
350ft DA
AIAT with Heathen Brake

Hornady 140gr ELDMs
Max 2677
Min 2601
Avg 2628
SD 24.6
ES 76

Prime 130gr
Max 2858
Min 2814
Avg 2840
SD 15.9
ES 44

3/4/19
39.8deg F
65% Hum
28.7deg F DP
29.36 in Hg
-516ft DA
AIAT suppressed

Hornady 140gr ELDMs
Max 2724
Min 2659
Avg 2687
SD 18.7
ES 65

Hornady 140gr ELDMs
Max 2694
Min 2647
Avg 2673
SD 17.3
ES 47

Federal Gold Medal Berger 130gr
Max 2860
Min 2781
Avg 2825
SD 28.3
ES 79

Prime
Max 2892
Min 2844
Avg 2869
SD 14.6
ES 48

3/7/19
55deg F
30% Hum
24.3deg F DP
29.59 in Hg
164ft DA
~10am
AIAT Suppressed

Copper Creek 139gr Lapua Scenar with Lapua Brass
Max 2827
Min 2807
Avg 2817
SD 6
ES 20

75deg F
25% Hum
35deg F DP
29.54 in Hg
1515ft DA
~11:25am
AIAT Suppressed

Copper Creek 139gr Lapua Scenar with Lapua Brass
Max 2840
Min 2817
Avg 2830
SD 7.6
ES 23

90deg F
~2:00pm
AIAT Suppressed

Copper Creek 139gr Lapua Scenar with Lapua Brass
Max 2851
Min 2827
Avg 2841
SD 7
ES 24

I am just looking for something more consistent. Best case scenario with my data at 40fps ES that is a 0.3mil difference in elevation at 1k. Shooting a 10” plate at that distance will cause a miss.

The Copper Creek was really good and what I am looking for but at near $2.50/round it is not sustainable, when the raw components are about $1.60 round.

At this point I am just considering starting to reload. Before I dive down that rabbit hole, any additional Factory Ammo yall would try? The Berger Ammo has been recommended to me multiple times. Lapua just launched 6.5 creedmoor ammo but I cant find it available.

It seems to like the American Gunner 140gr BTHP. It'll have SDs in the 10-15's ES 20-35's for one box and the next box will mirror the ELDM results.

 

[XLR308]

If you are looking for the best possible accuracy and consistency there is no substitute for hand loading and tailoring the ammunition to your rifle in my opinion.

 

[tnichols]

I have to agree with XLR308. I think you will be hard pressed to find a factory offering that will consistently come close to a properly assembled and tuned hand load.

I run FGMM in my 20” 308. As you found, it shoots extremely well at 100, but once you move out to distance, you may see more vertical, and this can vary lot to lot, some being better than others.

I ran Copper Creeks offering in my 260 when it was new, and it shot very well, but it is pricey. I saved the brass and now reload for it.

 

[b6graham]

The Copper Creek was really good and what I am looking for but at near $2.50/round it is not sustainable, when the raw components are about $1.60 round.

At this point I am just considering starting to reload. Before I dive down that rabbit hole, any additional Factory Ammo yall would try? The Berger Ammo has been recommended to me multiple times. Lapua just launched 6.5 creedmoor ammo but I cant find it available.

try berger. at least you get lapua brass when it's done

also the $1.60 is if you buy new brass every time. 10 reloads and drop 90 cents from that figure

 

[long range sponge]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/custom-ammunition-loading.6932668/#post-7606146

Worth a look.

 

[blbennett1288]

Pretty impressed with the Berger 140gr

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/custom-ammunition-loading.6932668/#post-7606146

Worth a look.

Thank you! I contacted him the other day.

 

[blbennett1288]

The Berger 140gr Hybrid Target factory ammo shot really well and I think I am going to stick with it. Over the 30 rounds I chronograph-ed and have pictures, below are the results. I chronograph-ed more I just dont have my range book in front of me. S-D is single digit and E-S is ~25-35 consistently. The temperature ranged from 55-75deg F and the velocity was really consistent all day.

Max 2841
Min 2815
Avg 2831
S-D 8.8
E-S 26

Max 2835
Min 2799
Avg 2818
S-D 9.6
E-S 36

Max 2835
Min 2804
Avg 2819
S-D 9.5
E-S 31

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I can understand the need and effort to find good numbers for ES and SD out of ammunition, both factory and handloaded. Theoretically, it translates to better vertical consistency on the target, and this is often borne out in practice. But it's not the only factor governing such matters, and sometime does not deliver those expected reliable results.

Curiously, none of the above data includes the most truly pertinent info, group heights and widths.

In essence, we are looking at one aspect of performance, in the hope that its significance will translate into something only partly related to its basic significance.

This is a common concern of shooters who are still coming up to speed and are grasping to understand the relevant factors. I call this "diving down the rabbit hole". It's actually a good thing, mainly because it instills the need for thorough research. In the end, however, it often serves best to demonstrate that there can be simpler ways of looking at problems and finding the straighter approach.

Effectively, we are looking to find the best path to eliminating vertical at distance. But we are looking at it from an oblique direction, velocity deviations, in order to define the needed pathway. It is an avoidance of the truer, but more complicated approach of actually getting out there and shooting the extended distances, observing actual shot placement from a given load. It's also a really complex manipulation of devices, time, and computation.

Remember, every step we employ provides another invitation to introduce error into the process; and besides, there is absolutely no guarantee that even a perfectly executed series of chrono exercises is going to translate into anything, reliably good or bad, on the target.

To get real results, we really should be biting the bullet, jumping directly to the chase, and doing our research by shooting the actual yardage. For comparatively effective comparison purposes, a good distance might be 300yd. It will demonstrate tendencies that will be much more indicative of actual performances at greater yet distances that velocities garnered at chrono distances.

Another issue about chrono speeds is that error factors average about 1% of the indicated velocity. Factually, this translates into a velocity reading error of +/-25fps for a reading of 2500fps. That means that a reading of 2500fps may actually indicate a true velocity, and this is true for every shot in the string, of somewhere between 2475fps and 2525fps. Trying to evaluate deviations of less than 50fps under those conditions is, by definition, mostly guaranteed to be an exercise in fiction.

Chronos and gauges, etc. are excellent tools, but must be evaluated in light of their true limitations. The only true measure of equipment performance is the actual target.

This is just a personal viewpoint, and worth only what you've paid for it.

Greg

 

[blbennett1288]

I can understand the need and effort to find good numbers for ES and SD out of ammunition, both factory and handloaded. Theoretically, it translates to better vertical consistency on the target, and this is often borne out in practice. But it's not the only factor governing such matters, and sometime does not deliver those expected reliable results.

Curiously, none of the above data includes the most truly pertinent info, group heights and widths.

In essence, we are looking at one aspect of performance, in the hope that its significance will translate into something only partly related to its basic significance.

This is a common concern of shooters who are still coming up to speed and are grasping to understand the relevant factors. I call this "diving down the rabbit hole". It's actually a good thing, mainly because it instills the need for thorough research. In the end, however, it often serves best to demonstrate that there can be simpler ways of looking at problems and finding the straighter approach.

Effectively, we are looking to find the best path to eliminating vertical at distance. But we are looking at it from an oblique direction, velocity deviations, in order to define the needed pathway. It is an avoidance of the truer, but more complicated approach of actually getting out there and shooting the extended distances, observing actual shot placement from a given load. It's also a really complex manipulation of devices, time, and computation.

Remember, every step we employ provides another invitation to introduce error into the process; and besides, there is absolutely no guarantee that even a perfectly executed series of chrono exercises is going to translate into anything, reliably good or bad, on the target.

To get real results, we really should be biting the bullet, jumping directly to the chase, and doing our research by shooting the actual yardage. For comparatively effective comparison purposes, a good distance might be 300yd. It will demonstrate tendencies that will be much more indicative of actual performances at greater yet distances that velocities garnered at chrono distances.

Another issue about chrono speeds is that error factors average about 1% of the indicated velocity. Factually, this translates into a velocity reading error of +/-25fps for a reading of 2500fps. That means that a reading of 2500fps may actually indicate a true velocity, and this is true for every shot in the string, of somewhere between 2475fps and 2525fps. Trying to evaluate deviations of less than 50fps under those conditions is, by definition, mostly guaranteed to be an exercise in fiction.

Chronos and gauges, etc. are excellent tools, but must be evaluated in light of their true limitations. The only true measure of equipment performance is the actual target.

This is just a personal viewpoint, and worth only what you've paid for it.

Greg

@Greg Langelius * thank you for the feedback. Guilty as charged, as I did not include all pertinent information in my posts. I am simply using the chronographed data as a qualitative approach to justify my findings at distance.

From your post, I get the impression you think I am sitting here at 100yards and simply chronographing data. Thinking this chronographed data is the end all be all.

I typically shoot 20-25 rounds to warm up and get chronograph data, usually a dot drill of some sort. After taking the chronograph off, confirm zero with another 5 rounds. Once this is complete I take it to distance from 200-1000yards confirming dope. If the ambient temperature changes significantly I might put the chronograph back on and confirm velocity in those conditions. In a day I might only have 25-35 rounds chronographed out of 100-140 rounds sent down range. Probably only half that is prone the other half positional.

With this rifle I have shot the Copper Creek, Berger, Hornady ELDM, and Hornady BTHPs at distance from 200-1000 yards. I did not waste time with the Prime or Federal. Prime because I only had a box or 2 left and Federal because it was the worst performing.

I do not think it is coincidence that the best grouping ammo has the lowest SD's and ES's. I understand the uncertainty in the equipment, but since it is applicable to the entire setup, I fail to understand what this has to do from a qualitative standpoint. When a manufacture publishes a specified velocity and I am able to reproduce similar results consistently I find it hard to believe that the data is not validated.

The Hornady ELDM and BTHPs serve me well inside 500 yards, but the deviation become apparent at 700-1000yards. At distance I was constantly chasing high/low and splitting the difference.

I don't have an app to do horizontal and vertical deviation, so here is what I got with Ballistic-X

Copper Creek 139gr Lapua Scenar
12" plate and 3/3 from 695 yards. The bolt is 1"

Berger 140gr Hybrid Targets
12" plate and 3/3 from 695 yards. The bolt is 1"

66% IPSC and 4/5 from 1000 yards. Bolt is 1". First round was a miss off the right edge. Elevation was spot on.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

blbennett1288, most excellent response; and I'm also guilty as charged, jumping to assumptions based upon facts not in evidence.

Clearly your conclusions are based upon a lot more than I had assumed.

I just always keep falling back into jumping directly to the chase, and basing my own assessments on actual, true evidence as shown on the real deal target. I find it just so much harder to argue with the target, itself.

All dispersions are the direct product, in part, of flight time variance. Some of it is going to come out of the cartridge, and some of it is not, like the environment. The best we can do is our part, Ma Nature still gets Her say.

For my own part, that's how I develop: to achieve results on target. I consider chrono exercises and some other techniques as at least partly sidetracks and detours that may or may not bear true witness to best performance. Clearly, there's room for discussion on this.

I also go to some different extremes, mainly in how each load gets metered by weight; it's my best approach to reducing ammunition-related deviant performance.

It's all part of an opinion, and not meant to be represented as incontrovertible fact.

Greg

PS And thanks for your patience with an Elder Fart..., my times are becoming the old times, and there's a lot of new stuff that refutes this. Perfection is an arrow that seems to have dropped from my quiver some time back; but my old methods still work well enough to please me, even if they tend to miss the mark in some small measure. My expressed goal is "to Defeat the Target"; no more, no less.

 

[wade2big]

Shooting over a chrono is theory. Hitting plates is practice. I dont chrono anything. That 140gr grain American gunner load at 70 cents a round shipped has never held me back.