how accurate can a 7.62 gasser get

[longshot2000]

I know, a hot topic...

I have a half dozen 7.62 rifles. The latest addition was a LaRue special edition. Not much really special, but I always wanted a 7.62 LaRue, and this gave me the chance. PredatAR body with an OBR (heavy) 16" barrel. Now, there are two kind of rilfe fans. One that loves LaRue, and the other, well, less impressed. Leave that aside. LaRue does produce one of the most accurate production semi-autos in both 5.56 and 7.62. But, how much should I (we, you, us) expect from a gasser. This gun had a .8 MOA test target. I was a little dissapointed. Now, it is a 16" barrel, but at 100 yards, that should not matter. The 20" will do better at 800, but at 100...

Am I expecting too much? I have two LMT .308s and one KAC SR25. The LMT outshoots the KAC, but both are just above .50 MOA shooters.

I have a number of accurate and accuratized (is that a word?) 5.56 gassers that do a little better, but none are < 0.25 MOA consistently.

What should we expect from the best? What is the real world seeing from the guns that say they are the best (like LaRue, KAC, Les Baer, POF, GAP) Sorry if I left your favorite off the list. And, yes, I have shot Les Baer, and it is a nice rifle, but I don't buy into a 1911 builder making the best 7.62. How much is hype (lots of it), and what is real ?

... honestly, looking for insights and experiences and opinions. Just, no flaming, pls.

 

[yellowfin]

Highly dependent on the ammo fed to them. It's tricky working with mag length vs. reaching the lands, pressure sensitivity, etc. Also powder selection has to be made with the gas system in mind versus not having to think about that. The results can be there but it's more work to ferret out all the differences to tweak. That's just my experience.

 

[longshot2000]

^^^^ you can do better than that. Assume similar ammo, like Black Hills 168 or Federal MK 175.

 

[Marine24]

I have a LaRue tAR in 5.56 with an 18" barrel. It's test target is .38" and I've yet to beat it. My best is .52.

I have a Wilson Combat Recon Tactical in .308 Win with a 14.7" barrel. With 168gr FGMM the best I've shot is .48 and rang steel 7 out of 10 shots at 1000 yards running a SWFA 5-20x scope.

I have another Wilson Combat Recon Tactical in 6.5 CM with an 18" barrel that I would fully expect to easily shoot around .5".

Also have a MegaArms Maten with an 18" Bartlein barrel. Haven't gotten it out yet but build specs make me believe it will shoot close to the 1/2 inch mark.

I'm a big fan of LaRue and they make exceptional rifles but have to say Wilson does as well. I'd be hard pressed to say one is definitely better than the other.

 

[longshot2000]

I have a LaRue tAR in 5.56 with an 18" barrel..

I get it. But, to be fair, 5.56 is easier than 7.62, for which I am interested.

 

[8up]

My expectation of when I get a 7.62 gasser, especially a high end rifle, that it will shoot with precision. I think we all would expect that, and being important consideration for buying one. I honestly believe that most 7.62 gassers, have that precision but the human element just cannot keep it that precise. Being the hardest large frame platform to consistently shoot while keeping the fundamentals strong with all the moving parts, I believe rifle set up is just as important. Then we all have days when we are locked on, and days when we are not.

Of course, ammo is a factor also. I shoot a lot of m118lr, through my built large frames, and my issued Larue rifle. The stuff is accurate, not the best out there in regards to mv temp, but flat out shoots accurate in any rifle I have had. Again, there is better ammo out there, but it works. I think also you must know or be a master of the ammo you shoot, it's capabilities, and it's shortcomings. You must shoot a lot of it.

I have a home build Mega Maten, 16" Rainier barrel, prs stock, and use a YHM Phantom direct thread suppressor. Using 118LR, I have had it in the .3's for 5 shot groups. For some reason, this setup works damn good. That is when I am locked on. I average it around .5's on bad days. It is my accuracy and fundamentals checker. If I am out shooting a different rifle and cannot group it, I pull this one out and check myself to make sure I am on for the day. My issued Larue, have no doubt it shoots accurate, but I am not consistent with it. I shoot it with no muzzle brake or suppressor, and have to manage the recoil. Plus, have a ctr stock on it which sucks for anything precision work. Grouped it pretty small also.

We humans pulling the triggers are the unknowns. To shoot a 7.62 gasser in the .5's for groups and at range to targets, is in my book pretty darn awesome.

 

[bigjake83]

I know, a hot topic...

I have a half dozen 7.62 rifles. The latest addition was a LaRue special edition. Not much really special, but I always wanted a 7.62 LaRue, and this gave me the chance. PredatAR body with an OBR (heavy) 16" barrel. Now, there are two kind of rilfe fans. One that loves LaRue, and the other, well, less impressed. Leave that aside. LaRue does produce one of the most accurate production semi-autos in both 5.56 and 7.62. But, how much should I (we, you, us) expect from a gasser. This gun had a .8 MOA test target. I was a little dissapointed. Now, it is a 16" barrel, but at 100 yards, that should not matter. The 20" will do better at 800, but at 100...

Am I expecting too much? I have two LMT .308s and one KAC SR25. The LMT outshoots the KAC, but both are just above .50 MOA shooters.

I have a number of accurate and accuratized (is that a word?) 5.56 gassers that do a little better, but none are < 0.25 MOA consistently.

What should we expect from the best? What is the real world seeing from the guns that say they are the best (like LaRue, KAC, Les Baer, POF, GAP) Sorry if I left your favorite off the list. And, yes, I have shot Les Baer, and it is a nice rifle, but I don't buy into a 1911 builder making the best 7.62. How much is hype (lots of it), and what is real ?

... honestly, looking for insights and experiences and opinions. Just, no flaming, pls.

If you've shot a Les Baer .308 AR with Quality ammo and you're still not impressed, it's you!! not the rifles..

it's comical to see people like the OP here who go out and buy every top shelf AR they can get their hands on, before it Dawns on them they're just not a proficient AR shooter.

The 3 most accurate rifles you can own are as follows..

Les Baer .308
JP LRP-07
Full Custom Home Build made by a competent Smith.

OP I'll build you a custom high grade .308 AR and then film myself shooting a 6x5 with it keeping all groups at .5 or less proving its a .5 or less rifle, and then we'll just let the results speak for themselves once it's in your hands.

 

[JSTARSZ]

These kind of conversations go no where and tend to get into arguments and go off the rails quickly. In my little world, if I can shoot a large frame AR under 3/4 MOA I am pretty happy. I am not the best gasser shooter and I can recognize that. I love shooting the 308 AR's but some days they just hate me.

 

[8up]

bigjake, your spot on. Proficiency!

Today's manufacturers with the knowledge they have, quality components, CNC machines, and not discounting their skill, turn out some great stuff.

A example, seen a 240 G secured solid in a computerized turrent system, no human element touching the weapon. Fired by computer electronics with FMJ issued belt ammo, group MOA and less at 100. That's a whole lot of weapon and moving parts with so so ammo for accuracy with impressive results. Not just on one weapon system, but also others tested also. Makes you think!

 

[longshot2000]

These kind of conversations go no where and tend to get into arguments and go off the rails quickly.

Pretty much... I was not looking for the flames, or a d*** measuring contest, just what people are seeing in real-life, and how accurate a 7.62 semi can get. If 3/4 MOA is what is good, then that is that.

 

[Citius7]

Gas guns exacerbates any flaw in your shot and follow through. Bolt guns are cake to shoot well compared to gas. What helped me become a better bolt shooter was shooting a shilen barreled AR at dots. Following through and doing everything consistently is where things come together. Like it's been said above. Don't blame the gun really. Blame the operator. In a gas gun, every shot it seems there is something you could have done better. Shoot dots. Not groups.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I think it takes a lot of practice to be proficient with the large frames. And the .308s are an anomaly.

Considering that there's now 6.5 CM gassers shooting 1/2 moa, you have to ask, what's the difference? The majority of the .308s are still sold as "battle rifles", not for precision. They have chambers cut to accommodate 7.62. Unless you reload, not really optimal. Consider LB, Wilson, GAP, maybe Larue for precision out of a huge market.

One man buys an LMT MWS and knows how to shoot and reload. He fails to hit the 1/2 moa grail regularly. One man has a great blank chambered in 6.5 and assembles the rest, sub-moa often. You tell me.


Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Defender968]

Ive gotten less than .5 MOA at 800 meters with my OBR, but thats after lots of work on the custom ammo i make for it...but its capable of less thsn 4" groups at 800 M...again YMMV, but A Larue is an accurate rifle.

 

[elfster1234]

I've seriously seen hundreds of 6x5 targets from people around the world, from people starting out with an AR to past world record holding marksmen... DPMS's, rock rivers, LMT's, GAP'S, JP's, OBR's, customs, blah blah blah you name it, ive seen it... 5.56/.223 AR's consistently would out shoot 7.62/.308 at 100yards.... reason? recoil management with little effect of wind... to shoot large caliber AR's of .308 or more takes some serious skill to CONSISTENTLY shoot under .75moa... regardless if it's a GAP, OBR, JP, RRA, or whatever MOST would average about .9 to 1.1moa at 100yards (which was more due to the shooter rather than the rifle IMO)..... some with marginal skill behind an AR, especially a .308, could consistently produce 6x5's of .9moa to .75moa and reloads were required to consistently get a 6x5 at .75 average... It was rather rare to see 6x5's under .75moa to .5moa...., especially .308's.... and i can only think of maybe less than 10 people that could actually produce a consistent 6x5 target, of .5moa or less with a .308 AR..... like i said before, .223 AR's would consistently destroy .308's at 100yards, and were neck and neck at 300yards... it's really past 300yards do .308's battle the wind better in comparison to .223....... i've seen too many that shoot nothing but .5moa bolt actions get behind an AR and they swear it's the rifle and not them... more times than not, they were not driving the AR correctly and were not putting in the load development time. Large caliber AR's will bring most non-stop bolt action shooters to their knees. Bullet selection, bullet selection, bullet selection. Load development, load development, load development. Bullet selection and load development, and shooting an AR correctly can easily cut your group sizes in half. Hope this helps.

 

[elfster1234]

BTW... if you're on facebook and want to walk the walk, rather than talk the talk... jump in the closed group "Elfers, 100&300 yard, 6groups x 5shots each, 1target, challenge!!"

boat load of amazing people and info, and win prizes for the first place winner of each board (100yard semi, 100yard bolt, 300yard semi, 300yard bolt)... uploaded targets are automatically scored for you! just read the pinned post at the top of the timeline for details!

 

[steve123]

Bullet selection, bullet selection, bullet selection

I hadn't a bolt rifle that wouldn't shoot the Berger hybrids well and thought they would certainly work in my 6mFatRat AR, tried and tried loads with 105 hybrid but no luck. Ordered some 95 SMK's and just like Elf said groups were half the size which brought much joy at distance. Recoil is less, plus I gained 90 fps, and it seems the same in the wind.

 

[10ring1]

The single targets are 4 shots each at 100 yds with my stock dpms lr308 24". These were shot all on he same day at 100 yds. These were my only attempts at groups as I was shooting many guns that day. Only upgrade was a spring kit and home done trigger job. I spent a great deal of time fine tuning a load for it but it is a solid .75 moa gun. In the double target, the one on the right was a single hole but my fifth shot was to the left a half inch. I simply choked. Say what u will about dpms but I am happy with mine. Plan to upgrade trigger in the future. This load is Varget with 168 Sierra match bullet.

 

[RifleBlog]

3/4 MOA (consistently, as in every time) is pretty excellent for a gas gun shooting factory ammo.

Most people posting about their quarter-minute gas guns online can't actually do it consistently.

 

[craigos]

My larue 308 OBR will shoot .3 moa with 168 FGMM, i havent had to handload for it. Took it to a CORE shooting class and was hitting targets at 1200. I initially had a HK MR762 and that fucking thing wouldnt break an inch, so sold it and bought the OBR - never regretted that.

 

[10ring1]

3/4 MOA (consistently, as in every time) is pretty excellent for a gas gun shooting factory ammo.

Most people posting about their quarter-minute gas guns online can't actually do it consistently.

Yes. Doesn't just happen. Mine took extensive load development.

 

[elfster1234]

3/4 MOA (consistently, as in every time) is pretty excellent for a gas gun shooting factory ammo.

Most people posting about their quarter-minute gas guns online can't actually do it consistently.

amen

 

[TexasEric]

I enjoyed the crap out of this thread. I had now idea what the limit was with 7.62 gassers and factory ammo. Now I feel like I have an idea. Just need to get my rifle back from Fulton Armory and shoot.

 

[8up]

And to add to all the excellent posts in regards to this topic, every post here on this thread all pay a major factor into consistency shot after shot. Anyone out there who is following this thread that's wants to challenge themselves to become a better marksman and refine your skills, pick up a 7.62 gasser and train with it. Train a lot with it.

To do this, let's break it down a little into categories.

1. Master the fundamentals: I been taught the 7 fundamentals, some say 8, others say 4. Either way, they must be mastered. We know what the areas of them are, but we have not discussed every little detail that must be followed in each area, for everything to work towards consistency, and supports the other areas in the fundamentals.

2. Rifle set up: there is a ton of opinions out there, I will just start by saying buttstock selection and design, scope height and optic itself, suppressors (direct thread vs. quick mount), triggers, gas operating system type, bipods, and barrels. This is just a starter.

3. Ammo: reliable and consistent, bullet type, factory or reloads, caliber, so many more to list. 7.62 being the the topic of discussion, ballistics not the best, but today's technology and bullet design and ballistic computers, the math has been done and continues to improve. You can expect accuracy on target with it. Don't get me wrong, there is better choices out there, I love me some 6.5 Creedmore also, but staying per topic of discussion of 7.62.

Anyone else want to add?

 

[gunfighter48]

I had a DPMS LR308 that did less than 1/2MOA with factory 168gr AMAX and FPD ammo. The best I could do at 100yds was .4" 4 shot groups. It would do that all day long or as long as my ammo lasted. After my son-in-law retired from the Army I gave it to him and he just loves it. I now have a RPR 308 and need to put another 40 rounds thru it before I start shooting for accuracy. Right now with 168gr range ammo it's putting 30rds in a 1" circle.

 

[TigernLionGSP]

Good thread, I have a question also Can a .308 w16" barrel (SIG 716) hit a 1000yrds with 175 gr, or is 178 gr which is better? I can hit 850 with 147 gr 12" groups. I am thinking about entering the

www.purgatorysniperchallenge.com

and I don't to hump my big .308 with a 24" barrel for three days any good feed back is welcome.
thanks

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Good thread, I have a question also Can a .308 w16" barrel (SIG 716) hit a 1000yrds with 175 gr, or is 178 gr which is better? I can hit 850 with 147 gr 12" groups. I am thinking about entering the

www.purgatorysniperchallenge.com

and I don't to hump my big .308 with a 24" barrel for three days any good feed back is welcome.
thanks

the 175and 178's are same same....you were very lucky to get hits w/147grn. at that distance you state....

in the AR platform its all about triggers and barrels......jock up an aftermarket GOOD trigger, and you cut the groups in half (compared to stock fire control components)....next junk the gorilla springs....

just sayin

 

[TigernLionGSP]

I have put a 2 stage Giess. trigger in it. Yes I was hit the beam at 850 yrds not the same place every time, more lobbing them in.

 

[8up]

Yes, a 16" barrel will do the job with 175's. Not much experience on my end with the 178's. I would pick which gave you the best performance in that rifle, then use it.

 

[jjseman]

1/2" in my rra lar 8- stock off the shelf set up with hand loads, five shot groups. Same thing with a 6.5 Creedmoor build I did. That's my goal in load development, I stop experimenting once I get that accuracy. That being said, load development for gassers can make you pull your hair out at times. So many hurdles that bolt guns don't have. Also the pressure signs on brass are a bit of a mystery at times, except for the obvious ones. A bolt gun tells you pretty quickly when you're pushing the limits. My gas guns have 22" barrels making them slower than my bolt guns. Accurate nodes while maintaining a respectable velocity is a challenge sometimes.
So to summarize, yes- I can get mine to shoot very well. But the novelty of a repeater does come with a lot of compromises. I was scratching my head why more prs shooters weren't using them, especially with the fast stages. Now I know. I still like them, but if I had to stick with just one type of rifle, the bolt guns are what I would choose.

 

[jevan126]

In all Honesty if you get a Top End AR ex. JP, Larue, Wilson, Les Baer, Seekins the answer is MORE ACCURATE THEN YOU CAN SHOOT. All of these .308/ 7.62 Rifle come down to your abilities, fundamentals, conditions and last but not least ammo but if you are looking for a number 100 yards you can have every bullet hole touching each other.

 

[agbm]

In all Honesty if you get a Top End AR ex. JP, Larue, Wilson, Les Baer, Seekins the answer is MORE ACCURATE THEN YOU CAN SHOOT. All of these .308/ 7.62 Rifle come done to your abilities, fundamentals, conditions and last but not least ammo but if you are looking for a number 100 yards you can have every bullet hole touching each other.

Also you can add LWRC REPR'S to the list, I had a 3 shot group going at 100yards which would have been way under .250 moa. Long story short, first two shots were basically inside same hole. I looked and could not find my second shot through the scope, so I walked down range and saw the first two shots with a big smile on my face. Then I sat down at the bench to fire the third shot and I pulled it. My smile was gone, but my lesson learned is my repr will shot if I do my part!!!!

 

[AGL4now]

I enjoyed the crap out of this thread. I had now idea what the limit was with 7.62 gassers and factory ammo. Now I feel like I have an idea. Just need to get my rifle back from Fulton Armory and shoot.

DITTO.......I had zero idea what to expect.......now I know. Thanks to all who posted.

 

[KimberGuy]

16" gun is more than capable of hitting a 1,000 yard plate. I routinely beat up a plate at 1,008 yards at my home range with a 16" SR-25.

I'd recommend that if you want to shoot that far out though, you look at something besides the standard 175SMK. 175 Matchburner, 175 RDF, 178 ELD-M, 185 Juggernaut, etc.

 

[sinister]

There are a number of gunsmithed and factory-built 7.62 / .308 Win self-loaders out there that can shoot very well. Mechanically, many will out-shoot the human pointing it.

David Tubb won the NRA Highpower National matches a few times with an SR-25 in .308 and 6.5mm and he tried working out to the nth degree the most precision possible. Since then many others have won it with AR derivatives.

The most serious limiting factor in the human-machine interface is the simple fact that the lock time of the AR trigger (the Geissele and Krieger-Milazzo/Wisconsin being the standard) is longer than that of a striker-fired bolt gun. A very good marksman has to have even better hold and follow-through when firing a semiautomatic rifle equipped with a hammer firing system.

 

[Alex V]

The test target that came with my 18" 7.62 OBR came with a .788" test target using 175gr FGMM. I am a total noob when it comes to shooting precision or long range, I spend most of my time training with and shooting 5.56 ARs and handguns. I was able to post a bunch of groups below that. The best one so far was a .395" but fairly often I am below the group size on the test target. The first time ever shooting past 200y I was able to make first round hits at 700y on half size IDPA steel, these rifles CAN SHOOT. I am sure someone who knows how to shoot long range/precision rifles would run circles around me with the same rifle.

Don't forget that the guy who tests these rifles has to do a hundred a day if not more. How much attention is he really paying? I would not get too bogged down with a test target. Shoot the rifle. If I can out-shoot him, even once, I have do doubt that you can as well. Plus, if you do, you get a framed letter from LaRue and a special edition dillo lol.

 

[MSTN]

Once you get a .260 Remington or 6.5 CM gasser, you'll forget all about the .308 caliber.

 

[djarecke]

Once you get a .260 Remington or 6.5 CM gasser, you'll forget all about the .308 caliber.

Not entirely true. I had a JP 6.5 but sold it and am looking for a 7.62. Load development was an ass ache for the 6.5.

 

[Black max]

^^^true dat yo! Large frame semis are best served in 308...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I must say I always wanted a nice mid-weight .308 AR around ~14.5 or maybe even 16" for mid/south GA hogs at night. Of course could just get a Scar for it but a ~8-9 lb .308 AR w/ nice custom 14.5-16" tube on it has a bunch of appeal to me for the thick pine woods down here.. and you aint gone do much better for hog duty than .308, at least with a gas gun. Theres even a ton of great factory ammo choices specifically made for snuffin swine. 6.8 SPC dont look bad either though. I hear the 95gr TTSX is a beast!