How accurate is accurate? FACTORY AMMO

stello1001

stello1001

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    • Feb 20, 2017
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    #1
    So as the title says, how accurate is accurate, only asking about factory ammo. There seems to be a trend of people shooting and relying more on factory loaded ammo. With companies like prime, berger, federal, hornady, I don't blame them. They have quality options to choose from, and these options perform quite well for a lot of people. However, what can I reasonably expect, accuracy wise, from factory ammo with a stock barrel? Specifically, I've got a howa 1500 with its original barrel.

    I'm asking this because I see many post up some pretty incredible groups, and claiming that the factory ammo they shoot is shooting just as tight as their custom handloads. In all honesty, I have gotten several sub moa groups but I've never really cared to measure them because frankly, none of the truly impressed me.

    Are the people getting sub half moa with factory ammo using custom barrel makers? If so, what should I be expecting, my rifle has a sub moa guarantee and the ammo I shoot through is match grade ammo. Am I crazy to imagine I could possibly find factory ammo to consistently shoot around half moa with my current setup?

    Not posting this to start a war. Just trying to start a conversation and maybe realize what it is I should truly be expecting.

    Post up groups, ammo, and chrono numbers if you got them.


    ***EDITED TO ADD***

    I'm talking 5 rounds groups at 100y, what is realistic...
     
    Last edited:
    #2
    My last Shilen 260 barrel was absolutely a a 1/2 moa shooter with FGMM 142.
    Haven’t tried it in the new barrel yet.
    I’ve seen lots of good performance from 6.5 CM factory ammunition.

    I’ve yet to see a factory ammo with exceptional ES/SD numbers though and I see in vertical dispersion.

    The Hornandy 147 loads I saw shot at a mile recently weren’t terrible though.
     
    #4
    i used Hornady eld - m ammo out of my Sako trg. Consistently shot .25-.5” groups at 100. With that being said, my hand loads far outperform the factory ammo.
     
    #5
    How many shots?

    Hornady match in my 6cm, 6.5cm, and 300 PRC will put 10 shots in a .6-.8" group at 100 with about a 7-15fps SD depending on the particular lot.

    I could probably cherry pick tons of .2-.4" 3-5 shot groups.
     
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    #7
    These two were done with Black Hills 77gr Match (blue box) with my SRS A1, SAC 223 conversion:
    IMG_0996.JPG
     
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    #8
    I think an audiophile example is somewhat comparable.

    Audiophiles will spend 10's of 1000's or more chasing that last 0.1% of audio fidelity. And of course with this is tons of snakeoil and snobbery for those who are more the "sounds good enough to me" crowd.

    I think this likely happens in many hobbiest endeavors. At some point there is a dimenishing return relative to the investment and effort.

    Quality factory ammo in a well built quaily rifle will likely perform very well and perhaps to 95% of the shooting entusiasts expectations. But to the 5% or so who chase that extra .1 MOA this is likely heresy.

    Neither group is right or wrong. And IMO just having people who are actively involved in the shooting sports is good for the sport in general. Whether you are chasing that extra 0.1 or just plinking cans with a 22LR on the weekends.
     
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    #10
    Factory Federal .243 with the 95gr Berger Hybrid Hunter is showing some serious promise in my new build. 1” pasty for size reference. (Group 2 in the photo, Group 1 was some Herters to foul the barrel.)

    3BAE1114-ED84-40F9-A962-E64263402766.jpeg
     
    #11
    I think anything under an inch with factory is good and you should be happy with. For all the amazing groups people say they shoot, there will be the same that are not so good. I don’t really shoot factory because I enjoy reloading and don’t shoot huge volume, plus here in Australia we get raped with price on the quality stuff. And when I say quality there’s no Prime etc. But then on occasions when I have shot some factory stuff I’m like.....why am I reloading. So under an MOA group from factory is great IMHO.
     
    #12
    I quit worrying about what a 5-shot group looks like on paper a long time ago. But the last time I was out and doing a good job driving my AT (rare,) I layed down 3 shots within 1/2moa at 830 yards on a piece of steel. With factory Hornady 140 ELD-M 6.5 Creedmoor.

    That is rarely something I am capable of. But when I don’t, it’s rarely the ammo’s fault.
     
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    #14
    OP, Sub half is great, but worthless if the shooter can not read wind or shoot from anything other than the bench. I like to roll a load that is less than an inch, then see what it does in the field. I have had great results with Prime 130's for both of my 260's. Its good shit on steel and deer.
     
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    #15
    roggom said:
    OP, Sub half is great, but worthless if the shooter can not read wind or shoot from anything other than the bench. I like to roll a load that is less than an inch, then see what it does in the field. I have had great results with Prime 130's for both of my 260's. Its good shit on steel and deer.
    Click to expand...

    Are you having great success with the new prime load on deer? I made a thread asking this not too long ago but didn't get anything. I ask because I'm looking for a match grade accurate factory load but I need it to perform on deer too. That is why I went with Spark Munitions. They load with 140ELDM which I already know works great. I am thinking about buying 200 rounds of Berger ammo now and trying that. Ideally, I'd like to see groups at 100 like what many are posting above, but also have consistency at steel when shooting long range.
     
    #16
    stello1001 said:
    Are the people getting sub half moa with factory ammo using custom barrel makers? If so, what should I be expecting, my rifle has a sub moa guarantee and the ammo I shoot through is match grade ammo. Am I crazy to imagine I could possibly find factory ammo to consistently shoot around half moa with my current setup?
    I'm talking 5 rounds groups at 100y, what is realistic...
    Click to expand...

    Five rounds.... original factory barrel on a Ruger Precision Rifle (6.5 Creedmoor) with 3,000 rounds through it... Hornady ELD-M 140-gr. 100 yards. Realistic? Yep!

    RPR-Hornady-140-ELD-M-100-yards-last-group.jpg
     
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    #18
    Nowadays, most “match” factory ammo should do .5 to .75moa or better without a problem.

    Unless your ES is substantially high, factory ammo won’t be the reason you miss.
     
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    #19
    lowlight said:
    if you are not shooting 5/8th to 3/8th inch groups with good factory ammo, it's you or the rifle

    most recent factory ammo is awesome, super good

    the New Prime and Peterson loads are submoa with single digit SDs

    we routinely see guys shoot 1/2 moa groups
    Click to expand...
    Dthomas3523 said:
    Nowadays, most “match” factory ammo should do .5 to .75moa or better without a problem.

    Unless your ES is substantially high, factory ammo won’t be the reason you miss.
    Click to expand...

    Yep. If **I** can do it with factory ammo in a well-used RPR... haha... anyone SHOULD be able to do it. I'm just a self-taught barely-not-a-newbie shooter.
     
    #21
    That's fucking awesome. I've really wanted to try prime for a good while now. I just want it to double up as a great round for plinking and hunting. Haven't heard or seen much of people using it for deer so don't know how the bullet will hold up on medium sized game.
     
    #22
    stello1001 said:
    That's fucking awesome. I've really wanted to try prime for a good while now. I just want it to double up as a great round for plinking and hunting. Haven't heard or seen much of people using it for deer so don't know how the bullet will hold up on medium sized game.
    Click to expand...

    Definitely try Prime. Good stuff. Also consider trying the new Berger Target Hybrid 140-gr cartridges. I also got good results from Federal Gold Medal Match Berger Hybrid 130-gr. They all shoot well for me, if I do my part.
     
    #24
    lowlight said:
    you can shoot a deer with a Valkyrie let alone a creedmoor

    I saw images of Federal taking a host of animals with it

    these aren't hard choices when it comes to modern match ammo
    Click to expand...

    I've seen really nasty results on deer which I would like to avoid. That was my main concern. Penciling through, pancaking, and blowing up like hell are some of them. I brought back the match bullet kills thread just so I can see what others have used with success. Little by little I'm seeing people have success with prime and Berger. Those two are options I am very likely to explore very soon.

    The attached is .27 cal 145 grain ELDX bullet kill, something I did not like!

    IMG-20181223-WA0008.jpg
     
    #26
    It's designed as a hunting bullet and therefore I must assume it's supposed to stay intact for the most part and retain itself. I did not kill that deer and I have no way of knowing where it was shot. I agree the shooter did a poor job of knowing where his impact was at because he could not tell me for sure.

    I personally have had success with 140ELDM and 140BTHP but like mentioned previously, considering factory Berger and prime.
     
    #27
    ELD-X and ELD-M 143 and 147 grains 6.5 Creedmoor both shot under .5". Can I shoot better than 1/2"? probably not... do I want too? probably not? will my rifle shoot better than .5"? yes, I am sure of it. I don't myself personally buying reloading equipment just to get 1/4' groups personally while this is fun I like to devote my time to other venues as well.
     
    #28
    These are the first 9 shots out of my 6.5 creedmoor Ruger precision rifle, with Hornady black 143 bthp. 5 shots to find the center of the target, then 4 more for a 5 shot group. Hornady match shoots better, and my hand loads are a bit better still. You can be very successful with factory ammunition.
    IMG_2988.JPG
     
    #29
    I’m only good for .6 moa +/- hold over hundreds of rounds. In that mix some 1/4 min and some larger.

    But if I’m shooting regularly and all 5 aren’t touching I’m pissed using factory match 308.

    if I’m shooting my 6br and not at .3 or less with Lapua match I’m angry at my self.
     
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    #30
    I'm going at this not to cause trouble or brag or any controversy, first off I don't shot factory ammo so maybe I shouldn't even be commenting that said
    All my hand loads on my rifles shoot around .3 groups some with alot of testing some very little. If I couldn't get factory ammo to shot at least .5 moa I wouldn't think I would be happy with the outcome. The reason why is compition shooting is what I do and I feel .5 moa is about the biggest margin off error u can afford in this game just my opinion for what it's worth
     
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    #31
    On a somewhat related question, how often can we expect factory ammo to deliver consistent single/near-single digit SD’s?

    I’ve shot my 224 Valkyrie a bunch and I have chrono’d it a number of times in various conditions and I’ve seen SD’s fluctuate. For example, on rare occasions factory 88 ELD will produce a 5 shot single digit SD string. Mostly SD will be 12-24. There doesn’t seem to be a temperature where the ammo has better numbers.

    Also, Federal 78 TSX from 20” barrel was 2835 with an SD of 21.
     
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    #32
    hlee said:
    These are the first 9 shots out of my 6.5 creedmoor Ruger precision rifle, with Hornady black 143 bthp. 5 shots to find the center of the target, then 4 more for a 5 shot group. Hornady match shoots better, and my hand loads are a bit better still. You can be very successful with factory ammunition.View attachment 7192088
    Click to expand...

    Math. It's .264 not .246

    I've used ELDM and ELDX 6.5 factory loads to 900 on steel and 450 on animals. They shoot very similar (not enough to matter) at any given range. I don't have the time to chase these loads and I use them primarily for hunting and steel, so factory stuff that shoots is good enough for me. I use Berger hybrids (Fedearal factory) in my .308s and Tikka 300WM. They flat out shoot. Threads like this makes me wonder how many good rifles I've sold over the years because I couldn't get less than 1" groups out of them with factory ammo.
     
    #35
    hlee said:
    Observations. They're not difficult. The hole cut by a bullet in a paper target is smaller than the bullet diameter. This is not super secret squirrel stuff. In this case, the hole diameter is 0.246 inch.
    Click to expand...
    So you're bullet shrunk while in flight. Got it. Unless you used inside mics on that hole, whatever.....
     
    #36
    Maxduty said:
    So you're bullet shrunk while in flight. Got it. Unless you used inside mics on that hole, whatever.....
    Click to expand...

    FullSizeRender.jpg

    I didn't get a very good angle on this picture. Hopefully you can see it better on the next.

    FullSizeRender 3.jpg

    I hope it is clear that there is an obvious gap between the mark left by the bullet and the edge of the caliper.

    According to my reloading log...

    0.177 caliber bullets leave a ~0.170" mark
    0.224 caliber bullets leave a ~0.217" mark
    0.264 caliber bullets leave a ~0.246" mark
    0.277 caliber bullets leave a ~0.267" mark
    0.284 caliber bullets leave a ~0.277" mark
    0.308 caliber bullets leave a ~0.285" mark

    I use the ~ because there is a few thou on either end of the numbers listed above. Yes, I measure all of the marks, not just one or a few.

    But, don't take my word for it... Page 11 of the
    WORLD RIMFIRE & AIR RIFLE BENCHREST FEDERATION (WRABF) &
    EUROPEAN RIMFIRE & AIR RIFLE BENCHREST SHOOTING FEDERATION (ERABSF)
    OFFICIAL RULE BOOK 2013-2021

    "A 22 caliber bullet will print between 0.215" and 0.219."

    Them 22 caliber bullets must be shrinking too. Or, bullets make sub-caliber marks on paper. This is not secret knowledge. The paper used probably has some amount of effect on the size of the mark, and the paper used for "official targets" is specified in the rule book as well. Maybe the marks left by bullets on the paper used for YOUR targets are full caliber, but I doubt it. I challenge you to challenge your assumptions and put a caliper on the actual marks, instead of assuming. But, whatever, democrats are afraid of facts and actual observables. ;)
     
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    #37
    ^^^^^ OK....

    So, that's a difference of 0.018-inches, which comes to a 0.0172-MOA disparity at 100 yards.

    I say... "close enough." :)
     
    #38
    “Close enough” in a thread titled “How accurate is accurate?” That’s irony. But yeah, 18 thou is the difference between glazing past a post and stopping to make a snarky- though ultimately uninformed- comment.
     
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    #39
    hlee said:
    “Close enough” in a thread titled “How accurate is accurate?” That’s irony. But yeah, 18 thou is the difference between glazing past a post and stopping to make a snarky- though ultimately uninformed- comment.
    Click to expand...

    Well, pedantry is sport for me. So... this thread isn't even about accuracy, but rather precision. :p
     
    #40
    stello1001 said:
    I've seen really nasty results on deer which I would like to avoid. That was my main concern. Penciling through, pancaking, and blowing up like hell are some of them. I brought back the match bullet kills thread just so I can see what others have used with success. Little by little I'm seeing people have success with prime and Berger. Those two are options I am very likely to explore very soon.

    The attached is .27 cal 145 grain ELDX bullet kill, something I did not like!

    View attachment 7192009
    Click to expand...


    Looks dead to me and just some rib meat loss. I don’t know how much more you’d want. If you want more bullet retention use a bonded bullet, but know it will be at the expense of BC. It’s the price you pay when you add terminal ballistics into the equation.
     
    #42
    stello1001 said:
    So as the title says, how accurate is accurate, only asking about factory ammo. There seems to be a trend of people shooting and relying more on factory loaded ammo. With companies like prime, berger, federal, hornady, I don't blame them. They have quality options to choose from, and these options perform quite well for a lot of people. However, what can I reasonably expect, accuracy wise, from factory ammo with a stock barrel? Specifically, I've got a howa 1500 with its original barrel.

    I'm asking this because I see many post up some pretty incredible groups, and claiming that the factory ammo they shoot is shooting just as tight as their custom handloads. In all honesty, I have gotten several sub moa groups but I've never really cared to measure them because frankly, none of the truly impressed me.

    Are the people getting sub half moa with factory ammo using custom barrel makers? If so, what should I be expecting, my rifle has a sub moa guarantee and the ammo I shoot through is match grade ammo. Am I crazy to imagine I could possibly find factory ammo to consistently shoot around half moa with my current setup?

    Not posting this to start a war. Just trying to start a conversation and maybe realize what it is I should truly be expecting.

    Post up groups, ammo, and chrono numbers if you got them.


    ***EDITED TO ADD***

    I'm talking 5 rounds groups at 100y, what is realistic...
    Click to expand...

    .4s with Hornady American Gunner is not uncommon from my Beanland built match rifle.

    John
     
    #43
    I've shot Federal Match in .308 that would do 5 shot groups of 1/2" at 100 yards in a good gun. (FN A3G) Military lr 118 would do the same in it. At 100 yards. But at 1000 the military ammo was nowhere near as good as the Federal. My handloads, after trial and error could best the Federal Match for groups at 1000.
    Hope that helps
     
    #44
    stello1001 said:
    Are you having great success with the new prime load on deer? I made a thread asking this not too long ago but didn't get anything. I ask because I'm looking for a match grade accurate factory load but I need it to perform on deer too. That is why I went with Spark Munitions. They load with 140ELDM which I already know works great. I am thinking about buying 200 rounds of Berger ammo now and trying that. Ideally, I'd like to see groups at 100 like what many are posting above, but also have consistency at steel when shooting long range.
    Click to expand...


    Yes, I have used it on a Mule doe, around 80Y. Clean entrance, lung shot, decent exit (nothing excessive). No seperation or any other issues. I have plenty of bullets and ammo to choose from, SST, GMX , Nos BT, Accubond, scenars etc. I just wanted something off the shelf that can perform double duty and Prime is it.
     
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    #46
    Here is my chrono data (MagnetoSpeed V3) for the Berger Target Hybrid 140 factory ammo. Mind you, this is through the original RPR barrel at about 3,000 rounds through it at this point (back in September). Also... I chrono'ed 40 shots.

    1575042805899.png


    Same day, right before the Bergers, I chrono'ed 20 shots with the factory Hornady ELD-M 140-gr:

    1575042951157.png
     
    Last edited:
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    #47
    My last post brought a question to mind.... When you guys chrono your ammo, whether it be factory or custom-loaded, how many shots do you consider proper (or minimum) to give you a valid SD and ES? Sort of like groups... the "standard" is a 5-shot group. "Three shot groups mean nothing!" ;)

    How many shots in a chrono'ed series are considered to give "valid," usable, or "believable" SD and ES numbers?

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited:
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    #48
    I made up quite a few batches of Berger ”hunting bullets” when they came out, but years on my fears about spoilt meat and wounded deer have not only not been bourn out, quite the opposite. I now believe that too far aft shot with the ‘splodin boolet is way more likely to drop that deer fast than a bonded one that does not blow the whole GI out the side.

    it is simply a question of the magnitude of the wound. We aren’t arguing a 9mm hole vs a .45 hole. We’re talking a marble vs a baseball. I’ve recovered some gnarled bases of the bullets that made it through and visually it looks to be about 15% of the original mass. The damage, for someone whose been hunting my whole life, is extraordinary.

    The ethical part of the argument is over for me. The frangible bullets kill a lot faster (even with a bad shot). If you’re a neck shooter it will spoil more neck meat, but for those of us who like the boiler room it’s just way more killing power.
     
    #49
    I forget exactly but it's something like 35-40 samples to get a confidence interval high enough to have statistically relevant info....

    That said, I have switched to 10-shot groups for both Chrono and group size info to give useful info for realistic hit probability. I'll often shoot 10 for a good zero angle (4dof) then Chrono the whole day on a lab radar (30-100 shots).

    It's important, even with "temp stable" powders to monitor MV vs. temp because it will change day to day.
     
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