I've done all I can to avoid this, but it still happens. This one made it past my priming stage and I caught it just as I was dumping powder in.
How do you prevent stainless pin from being stuck in case?
- Thread starter lennyo3034
- Start date
I've done all I can to avoid this, but it still happens. This one made it past my priming stage and I caught it just as I was dumping powder in.
I toss the ones that get stuck in the neck of my Lapua 260 brass after sizing. I always double check cases before priming but when I sift out the pins I may have 3 cases out of 500 that have a pin in them when I'm priming. Best thing to do in your case is shake each one as you get ready to prime.
I know the cases come out looking beautiful with SS pins, but the risk factor seems too high for me. And I have enough steps already to load precision ammo, no way I'm adding another. Sticking with tumbling using lizard bedding procured from local PetCo.
Just had the barrel borescoped. Definite damage from impacts by pins. I am done with stainless tumbling, not worth the risk of ruining an expensive barrel. This one was a krieger that shot better than any semi-auto I've had.
I move brass from the SS media to a Midway Brass Sifter. After a few minutes of rotating the tumbler most of the pins are clear of the brass. I then take the brass and dry it in a Frankfort Arsenal (or any dehydrator) for a couple of hours. Remove the brass and tumble in the sifter again. I know it's a process but it has worked for me.
I inspect all the brass as I load it too.
I inspect all the brass as I load it too.
That's pretty close to what I do. It goes through the sifter multiple times. I have not been good at inspecting every piece though since I'm loading for a semi-auto and I run larger lots.
I agree you have to be extra careful inspecting brass....I have a bright light and look in every case......no problems so far. I use the RCBS tumbler (with lid) and tumble aggressively with brass partially submerged in water. Generally I do this twice....second rinse and tumble is with clean water.....then I remove brass and use compressed air to blow out each piece of brass. I generally run 100-150 pieces at a time. Close inspection is key......when i find a piece of brass with pins stuck in primer hole, I discard that piece of brass as I assume primer hole is too large. (It doesn't happen very often, and mostly with brass that has been fired 3x times has been my experience.)
Those of you using stainless... how often do you actually shoot?
I typically shoot 150-750rnds a week and I used to use stainless for a few years. I look back on that time as hell on earth. The time it took to complete the tumbling aspect of my loading process... it was pure hell. All that bullshit literally made me shoot less. I'd wish it on no man, and knowing what I know now I sincerely have no clue how this god forsaken process of wet tumbling and stainless pins found its way into the precision rifle community.
I typically shoot 150-750rnds a week and I used to use stainless for a few years. I look back on that time as hell on earth. The time it took to complete the tumbling aspect of my loading process... it was pure hell. All that bullshit literally made me shoot less. I'd wish it on no man, and knowing what I know now I sincerely have no clue how this god forsaken process of wet tumbling and stainless pins found its way into the precision rifle community.
I agree.....time consuming and painful inspection.... pardon my ignorance on this, but what type of rice and what is your process. I am eager for a better less time consuming way.
http://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/clean-brass-with-rice
I tried a bunch of different brands of rice. I have a link in the article to the specific rice: http://amzn.to/2acofXY
That brand doesn't get stuck in flash holes often, and is real easy to push out.
To answer your question, the key for me on the SS tumbling is really good rinsing and then tumbling the brass with water in a media separator. I use the RCBS one because the lid closes and keeps water and noise down. BUT - I've come around to Oran's view on SS tumbling and now have reverted back to vibratory tumbling for two reasons: 1) neck lubrication; and 2) no risk of a pin getting shot down my barrel. I resisted it because the SS tumbled brass is GORGEOUS and I already bought a frickin SS tumbler and hated to think that it was a waste. Orkan's suggestion on the rice is the way to go
read the article and think it is time to break out the vibratory cleaner again.......I too did not like the dust......thank you for the info and the link to the correct rice.
Lizard bedding sounds so much more snipery than corn cob, walnut or rice. Does PetCo have Komodo Dragon bedding?
Yes they do, but is a more highly specialized product and the costs don't out weight the benefits.
I use the orkan rice as well and it works fine, if I wasnt I would try the reptile bedding
Try Kramer Industries - http://www.kramerindustriesonline.com/PC.html - $139.95 for 10 lbs. (Ceramic media is far less dense than SS, so you are getting more media per pound, 10lbs is a much better value than the 5lbs). Select the K-Polish bond, it does not contain abrasives. I've used with and without Lemishine. The ceramic media does a better job polishing the casings than SS, but side by side Lemishine does leave the brass brighter. It's not a big difference. If the Kramer price gives you pause, search for ceramic or porcelain media, I saw some less expensive sources.
To Orkan's point about the case neck being too clean, just buy a jar of powdered graphite from any art store. Mix some of the 3mm ceramic balls with a tablespoon of the powdered graphite in a small jar (with a screw on lid), and dip the neck of the case in prior to sizing/bullet seating. Periodically recharge the balls with graphite. Fast and easy, leaves a fine powder residue on the inside & outside of the case neck. Makes for smooth neck sizing and bullet seating.
To Orkan's point about the case neck being too clean, just buy a jar of powdered graphite from any art store. Mix some of the 3mm ceramic balls with a tablespoon of the powdered graphite in a small jar (with a screw on lid), and dip the neck of the case in prior to sizing/bullet seating. Periodically recharge the balls with graphite. Fast and easy, leaves a fine powder residue on the inside & outside of the case neck. Makes for smooth neck sizing and bullet seating.
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You will never put anything back there, as uniformly as it's distributed during the firing event. I tried every kind of neck treatment known to us shooters. None of it provided as uniform of seating pressure as when I simply left the carbon there in the first place. Spending more money, and more time, to not get it done as good as is there by default is not a wise use of time.
Maybe if a guy only shoots a couple hundred rounds a year... but not for someone shooting thousands.
With rice, I can tumble for as little as half an hour if the batch is small enough in the thumlers uv-18.
I shoot about 1.5K rounds a year. I don't clean my casings every reloading cycle. Usually between 2nd and 3rd cycle. But when I do, I prefer them bright and clean so any problems are more readily visible. For shooters who do prefer to wet tumble, ceramic media does eliminate the risk of pins stuck in the case, and is gentle to the brass. And if at some point you want to lube the case mouth inside and out, the graphite method is inexpensive, fast, and effective.
There's more than one way to skin this cat.
I remember making all kinds of justifications for the wet process when I was using it too. I've the benefit of hindsight to see how stupid I was.
Apparently you're not there yet.
Take a breath man, and consider some humility. Glad you have a system that works for you, and glad you took the time to share it.
It goes like this: I walk through a door, and get kicked in the balls. I try going through the door in all manner of ways, spending great time and effort... and yet still get kicked in the balls no matter what I do regardless of how much time and effort spent. I watch others try to go through the door and they too get kicked in the balls. So, I "know" if someone walks through that door they are getting nutkicked. I then tell everyone I can in every way I can to avoid that door.
You walk through the door, get kicked in the balls, and tell people "if you just rub some cream on it afterward, it's not so bad."
Only in a world completely destroyed by political correctness can that be considered anything but insane. Humility? Despite what millennials think, there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. Just because it's your way, doesn't make it right. The right way can be proven. I can easily prove my way is right, and wet tumbling is wrong. I have done it right in front of people several times in the last year. I badly wish someone on here would have been saying what I'm saying now back when I was researching stainless media and a wet tumbling process. It would have been awesome if someone said "hey, you don't want to wet tumble... trust me... like you'd rather get aids... don't do it." Instead the sea of drones were rambling on about how fuckn great it was. Little did I know that most people don't shoot 1/100th as much as they claim to. Well, now I know. All it amounted to was wasted time. So, you can advocate for wet tumbling as much as you see fit. I on the other hand will scream from the roof tops how shitty wet tumbling is in the sincere hope that I save someone time, money, and frustration. It's not just "another way" of doing things. It's not 6 of one half dozen of the other. It's not even close. Wet tumbling is the wrong way for precision reloading for a lot of reasons. Simple.
The only place wet tumbling has in the shooting world is brass recovery (majorly corroded brass) and parts cleaning. That's pretty much it. If people shoot enough, they'll learn this for themselves.
Don't read this and think I'm pissed at you.
I just want people reading it to know where I stand on it.
You walk through the door, get kicked in the balls, and tell people "if you just rub some cream on it afterward, it's not so bad."
Only in a world completely destroyed by political correctness can that be considered anything but insane. Humility? Despite what millennials think, there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. Just because it's your way, doesn't make it right. The right way can be proven. I can easily prove my way is right, and wet tumbling is wrong. I have done it right in front of people several times in the last year. I badly wish someone on here would have been saying what I'm saying now back when I was researching stainless media and a wet tumbling process. It would have been awesome if someone said "hey, you don't want to wet tumble... trust me... like you'd rather get aids... don't do it." Instead the sea of drones were rambling on about how fuckn great it was. Little did I know that most people don't shoot 1/100th as much as they claim to. Well, now I know. All it amounted to was wasted time. So, you can advocate for wet tumbling as much as you see fit. I on the other hand will scream from the roof tops how shitty wet tumbling is in the sincere hope that I save someone time, money, and frustration. It's not just "another way" of doing things. It's not 6 of one half dozen of the other. It's not even close. Wet tumbling is the wrong way for precision reloading for a lot of reasons. Simple.
The only place wet tumbling has in the shooting world is brass recovery (majorly corroded brass) and parts cleaning. That's pretty much it. If people shoot enough, they'll learn this for themselves.
Don't read this and think I'm pissed at you.
I just want people reading it to know where I stand on it.I'll be honest I wish someone had told me this a few months ago before I started wet tumbling. I took the rifle to a smith to borescope the barrel. Obvious pin hits in it. This barrel was my best ever shooting semi auto barrel and has won 2 DMR match series. While getting up there in round count, It still had some life to it.
Would the rice work in the tumbler or would I need to get a vibrator to try it out? Ive been using a thumlers tumbler model B to clean. At first it was anoying because of the drying process since you had to wait forever and there would be water marks. I then got a dehydrator and it works well for me but I do see the problem of pins stuck in the neck of my 6.5 SP Lapua brass and pins stuck in the flash hole of my 308 LP Lapua brass. As far as time goes I don't have issue with wet tumbling but after reading your article I am interested to try this rice method for accuracy reasons.
I was lost on ss media, now on rice. I've tumbled brass for 32 yrs with corn cob, walnut, or a mix of them. Can't fathom how rice can improve accuracy^^^. I used to religiously clean primer pockets, today I do maybe 33%, more trying to uniform the pockets because today I notice pockets are somewhat deeper in a lot of the brass I shoot, making uniforming after first firing not a guaranteed thing.
As for dust with regular media, I guess I just don't notice it, nor do I care.
As for dust with regular media, I guess I just don't notice it, nor do I care.
I haven't tried a rotary with rice, but others have and they said it worked just fine. My ultravibe works so well I have never decided to try.
... as compared with stainless tumbling. NOT traditional walnut and such. I never made that claim. Squeaky clean necks produced by stainless tumbling hurts accuracy... plain and simple.
I never implied the statement came from you. I have a sonic that will make primer pockets spotless in 15 minutes, too clean of necks concern me here also, but have noticed a hour in highly charged corn cob afterwards yields consistent to previous neck tensions when seating bullets, with no degradation in accuracy. But drying brass a big pain in my ass.
Interesting, how do clean necks degrade accuracy? I always use lube on my necks if that makes a difference.
I think they become so clean, no carbon residue left on them, it increases neck tension even more so than firing new brass. Lube on necks is fine as long as a baseline has been established, but surely not a cure all for all situations. I feel there is 2 types of neck tension, measured and felt tension when seating bullets, the latter more important to me. You need repeatability on every case you fire, but culling ones that feel strange no issue either, shoot at closer ranges, save the consistent ones for farther shots.
I view handloading as a necessary evil, to be completed with minimal complexity and drama.
Vibratory cleaner with Walnut, dampened with lemon juice/unsweetened lemonade, and I have yet to clean my first primer pocket. Water soluble case lube, completed rounds wiped down with rubbing alcohol. And it could be even simpler, but this works and it isn't a hassle.
Greg
Vibratory cleaner with Walnut, dampened with lemon juice/unsweetened lemonade, and I have yet to clean my first primer pocket. Water soluble case lube, completed rounds wiped down with rubbing alcohol. And it could be even simpler, but this works and it isn't a hassle.
Greg
I agree wholeheartedly, but we all have a degree of accuracy we demand, some just jump through more hoops.
It goes like this: I walk through a door, and get kicked in the balls. I try going through the door in all manner of ways, spending great time and effort... and yet still get kicked in the balls no matter what I do regardless of how much time and effort spent. I watch others try to go through the door and they too get kicked in the balls. So, I "know" if someone walks through that door they are getting nutkicked. I then tell everyone I can in every way I can to avoid that door.
You walk through the door, get kicked in the balls, and tell people "if you just rub some cream on it afterward, it's not so bad."
Only in a world completely destroyed by political correctness can that be considered anything but insane. Humility? Despite what millennials think, there are right ways and wrong ways to do things. Just because it's your way, doesn't make it right. The right way can be proven. I can easily prove my way is right, and wet tumbling is wrong. I have done it right in front of people several times in the last year. I badly wish someone on here would have been saying what I'm saying now back when I was researching stainless media and a wet tumbling process. It would have been awesome if someone said "hey, you don't want to wet tumble... trust me... like you'd rather get aids... don't do it." Instead the sea of drones were rambling on about how fuckn great it was. Little did I know that most people don't shoot 1/100th as much as they claim to. Well, now I know. All it amounted to was wasted time. So, you can advocate for wet tumbling as much as you see fit. I on the other hand will scream from the roof tops how shitty wet tumbling is in the sincere hope that I save someone time, money, and frustration. It's not just "another way" of doing things. It's not 6 of one half dozen of the other. It's not even close. Wet tumbling is the wrong way for precision reloading for a lot of reasons. Simple.
The only place wet tumbling has in the shooting world is brass recovery (majorly corroded brass) and parts cleaning. That's pretty much it. If people shoot enough, they'll learn this for themselves.
Don't read this and think I'm pissed at you.
So I broke the old vibratory tumbler out and some rice. Worked like a charm. When full length resizing, I used to throw cases in the tumbler after sizing to clean the lube off. Will that work with rice as well?
Yes, sir. It will absorb the lube just fine.
Ive linked this pic before elsewhere but its a nice demonstration.
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The medium thicker sushi rice (bottom right) is preferred to the long grain stuff (top row) as the long grain can be juuuust small enough to get in the flash holes where as most the sushi rice is thick enough to not but not as thick as arborio (bottom left) so it still gets inside the case but doesnt pack in. I only have 1-2% flash hole blockage with Orkans linked rice compared to what... 40-50% I was getting with corncob?
While I think the corn cob would do a shinier job in 15 minutes compared to 30 minutes for the rice to get equally shiny the time savings on not having to manually pick out each case is a huge advantage to me.
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I have had issues with 6.5mm cases getting pins suck sideways in the neck. It's frustrating but not the end of the world. To run a batch thru the SS media is a 2 hour ordeal start to finish. I never had dry media get brass looking as good/clean and it took much longer to get there. Maybe I wasn't doing it right. Whatever floats your boat.... I SS clean every firing and I guess neck tension is consistent enough...
After tumbling, I dump most of the water out of the container, then fill it back up with warm water until the soapy bubbles are mostly all gone. From that point out, I grab 5-10 cases at a time, point them all the same way and shake them mouth-down over the water until I don't hear anymore pins sloshing. Check the necks for pins stuck sideways, and put them in a strainer. When the whole batch is in the strainer, dump them into a cooking pan with paper towels in the bottom, cook it at 250 for 30 minutes, and it's done. Never had a problem with pins staying in the case (I line them up in the loading tray and look over the batch from the top). If you want to talk about kicks to the nuts, there's people spending $600 to seat primers to the .001".
The only time I've ever experienced issues with pins being left in cases was shooting another person's rifle, with their brass/loads, from their setup where all they did was roll it through the spinny tumbler grate thing after tumbling. I shot 5 rounds and quit after the 2nd one had hot pins falling out of ejected cases. If you expect that to get every pin out of your cases you're high. If you dry the brass before you check for pins, you're begging for soap residue to make them stick to the inner wall. They slide right out when wet with a little shake. It takes 5-10 minutes to check 100-200 cases as you pull them out of the water. It's literally no worse than shaking cob/walnut media out of them. No black residue on my hands, no dust clouds, no black dust on everything in the garage...
After tumbling, I dump most of the water out of the container, then fill it back up with warm water until the soapy bubbles are mostly all gone. From that point out, I grab 5-10 cases at a time, point them all the same way and shake them mouth-down over the water until I don't hear anymore pins sloshing. Check the necks for pins stuck sideways, and put them in a strainer. When the whole batch is in the strainer, dump them into a cooking pan with paper towels in the bottom, cook it at 250 for 30 minutes, and it's done. Never had a problem with pins staying in the case (I line them up in the loading tray and look over the batch from the top). If you want to talk about kicks to the nuts, there's people spending $600 to seat primers to the .001".
The only time I've ever experienced issues with pins being left in cases was shooting another person's rifle, with their brass/loads, from their setup where all they did was roll it through the spinny tumbler grate thing after tumbling. I shot 5 rounds and quit after the 2nd one had hot pins falling out of ejected cases. If you expect that to get every pin out of your cases you're high. If you dry the brass before you check for pins, you're begging for soap residue to make them stick to the inner wall. They slide right out when wet with a little shake. It takes 5-10 minutes to check 100-200 cases as you pull them out of the water. It's literally no worse than shaking cob/walnut media out of them. No black residue on my hands, no dust clouds, no black dust on everything in the garage...
In all the years I've used stainless media, I have yet to get a pin stuck, but I also don't use "pins" per se. My media came from Southern Shine Tumblers on Facebook. The media is more like chips than pins. I am completely serious when I say I've NEVER had a pin get stuck in any case, and we're talking several thousand reloads.
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I'm one of those people who have a $600 primal rights CPS. I don't feel as though I was kicked in the nuts.
I used to use a hand primer. Didn't like it. So I primed on my hornady press. Hated it even more. Read the positive reviews on the CPS, so I bought it, to fix a process that I hated doing. Seating to .001 is just a bonus for me.
I used to use a lee press, until I broke it. Bought a hornady press and used it for a while. Read positive reviews on the Forster coax, so I bought it, to make a process better for me. Didn't think I got kicked in the nuts there either.
I used to trim, chamfer and debur using lee tools. Hated it with a passion. So I bought a giraud, to fix a process that I hated. Still didn't feel as though I was kicked in the nuts.
i used to anneal with a drill and socket. Hated it. So I build a home made annealer, to fix a process that I hated. Still don't feel as though I was kicked in the nuts.
I know some people feel it's the cool thing to do to bag on Orkan, but sometimes people get tired of doing things a certain way that doesn't work for them. As my examples above point out. I'm still using ss pins. YMMV...
Stainless steel tumbling has its place in reloading...but it is not for precision rounds. I have tumbled about 30,000 pieces of brass in the last year...so I have the SS tumbling method down to an art...but I still realize that it is not ideal for precision shooting. I used to use SS for precision...but when I kept getting unexplained fliers I switched to rice at Orkan's recommendation. Said fliers have since been virtually eliminated.
Also...I don't have a vibratory tumbler yet. I have a Thumblers vibratory on order because I believe it will work faster...but I currently use my pvc drum and rotary tumbler with rice. Same drum as I was using for SS pins...but dried out and with rice instead. I usually start it at night and the timer on my tumbler runs for 6 hrs. By morning they are ready to load. I am sure they would be done much faster...but since I tumble at night it doesn't take my time.
Now...try tumbling your brass in SS on a timer and leaving it sit till morning. It will look like garbage and need to be tumbled again.
So I guess you need to choose whether you want polished, squeaky clean brass...or whether you want brass that shoots consistently. Easy choice for me. SS is now only used for pistol or bulk rifle rounds. Precision rounds are ALWAYS tumbled in rice.
I really don't know what this has to do with tumbling brass. Looks to me like you are trolling for a response because you disagree with Orkan's view on tumbling. That is pretty low. Instead why don't you just present your experience and evidence as to why you think you are right concerning tumbling.
However...in response to your off topic low blow...I'm very curious...how many rounds did you prime on your CPS before you decided that it was not worth the money? Do you even have a CPS? Have you ever even used one?
Thing is...I have several tools on my bench which are an absolute joy to use...and the CPS is at the top of that list. I liked the CPS so much that I mailed one to my brother as well. If you don't like your CPS let me know and we can strike a deal and I'll give it to a buddy that would really appreciate it. You can scoff all you want at the cost of the CPS...but mine will be on my bench for years to come. Worth every penny if you value your time and sanity.
Also...I don't have a vibratory tumbler yet. I have a Thumblers vibratory on order because I believe it will work faster...but I currently use my pvc drum and rotary tumbler with rice. Same drum as I was using for SS pins...but dried out and with rice instead. I usually start it at night and the timer on my tumbler runs for 6 hrs. By morning they are ready to load. I am sure they would be done much faster...but since I tumble at night it doesn't take my time.
Now...try tumbling your brass in SS on a timer and leaving it sit till morning. It will look like garbage and need to be tumbled again.
So I guess you need to choose whether you want polished, squeaky clean brass...or whether you want brass that shoots consistently. Easy choice for me. SS is now only used for pistol or bulk rifle rounds. Precision rounds are ALWAYS tumbled in rice.
I really don't know what this has to do with tumbling brass. Looks to me like you are trolling for a response because you disagree with Orkan's view on tumbling. That is pretty low. Instead why don't you just present your experience and evidence as to why you think you are right concerning tumbling.
However...in response to your off topic low blow...I'm very curious...how many rounds did you prime on your CPS before you decided that it was not worth the money? Do you even have a CPS? Have you ever even used one?
Thing is...I have several tools on my bench which are an absolute joy to use...and the CPS is at the top of that list. I liked the CPS so much that I mailed one to my brother as well. If you don't like your CPS let me know and we can strike a deal and I'll give it to a buddy that would really appreciate it. You can scoff all you want at the cost of the CPS...but mine will be on my bench for years to come. Worth every penny if you value your time and sanity.
Thanks for the input. I have switched to rice and do not look back at stainless. It seems to clean quicker than corncob media as well.
As far as the CPS, I did not even know it existed. I tend to load in small batches so I don't have the issues with hand priming that some others have, but can certainly see it's usefulness. It is not a product for me at the moment but don't understand how it's a "kick in the nuts". No one is forcing me to buy it.
As far as the CPS, I did not even know it existed. I tend to load in small batches so I don't have the issues with hand priming that some others have, but can certainly see it's usefulness. It is not a product for me at the moment but don't understand how it's a "kick in the nuts". No one is forcing me to buy it.
What if I said the CPS was hell on earth, pure hell, bullshit, a god forsaken process...
"I remember making all kinds of justifications for precision priming when I was using it too. I've the benefit of hindsight to see how stupid I was.
Apparently you're not there yet."
If I had said that, you might have grounds to call what I said a low blow......
ETA: Don't get me wrong, off topic, yes... but it's more a call out on flamboyant narcissism than hate on the product. Wet vs. dry tumbling is certainly NOT grounds for showing off how much better than everyone else you are with drama and hyperbole. I'm really surprised Greg's not marketing the rice and using this as a sales pitch....
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So...you disagree with someone. So why don't you point out how they are wrong with facts? Why don't you present facts that are backed up with personal experience and rounds on target to PROVE that their concept is wrong. What I see in the "low blows" you have listed above is simply reality that you don't like...not low blow personal attacks towards you. Maybe stainless tumbling works for you. It worked for me when I was happy with 3/4-1 moa fliers. Maybe SS tumbling is an easy process for you. It was easy for me until I tried tumbling in rice. Maybe you are not at the point in your shooting yet to where you would appreciate the extra precision that comes with tumbling in rice instead of SS (or using a CPS for that matter). Maybe one day you will be to that point...but if you are happy with your results apparently you are not there yet. Reality is not always fun to hear...but it is not necessarily personal attacks either.
You skimmed through my post to quote one sentence out of it that poked at your ego and made you defensive enough about how you spend your money to dedicate half of your post to whining that I was low blowing, then tell me to share what the other 90% of my post was that you apparently didn't read so you can try the same holier than thou gig that Greg is on?
You bought Greg's product and apparently like the guy so now his thinly veiled insults and hyperbole are facts of reality, to be coupled with your own hyperbole (3/4-1 MOA? maybe tumbling media isn't the problem???) and "good intentions" as you look down your nose at my shooting ability... that you have no knowledge of whatsoever? You certainly have an interesting reality, if nothing else.
Look, the bullshit aside, there are two factors which we would objectively be looking at. 1) Performance directly related to the types of tumbling media; SD, ES, precision, accuracy, and 2) Performance delta vs. input required to perform the process (wet vs. dry).
1) Milo is probably onto the idea that I agree with the most. Minus some plastic deformation in the neck, the operation of seating a bullet is mostly elastic-- the hoop stress of the press fit is what holds the bullet in place via friction. The force required to seat the bullet is mostly the same as the force required to remove the bullet from the neck (minus the plastic deformation beyond the elastic limit of the brass). So one would think that consistent seating force is the name of the game to work towards a performance increase (ES/SD from 'neck tension').
Are you going to tell me that dry lube in the form of burnt gunpowder is the ONLY way to ensure a consistent coefficient of friction between the bullet and casing? Think about it for a minute. Beyond that, are you really going to tell me that dry tumbling with rice is the ONLY way to ensure that a consistent coefficient of friction is achieved? Is 3/4-1 MOA really the limit of accuracy possible with wet tumbling SS media? I don't think so because I'm shooting sub 1/2 with single digit SD's...
As an aside for thought, what is the difference in 2lb of seating force in the face of 60ksi chamber pressure? I don't know; I don't think anyone does.
2) Both types of tumbling have their ups and downs. Dry tumbling is something I have done with several media types, including rice (although not the magic brand listed). I SS tumble now and don't consider going back dry. Both processes require picking media out of the cases, both processes take at least 1-2 hours start to finish, both processes require an added cleaner to the mix... What's the difference? One you have to wipe your cases down, the other they're bone dry and clean. So the work input is pretty similar-- one is not "Hell on earth" compared to the other... So if it's worth it or not is dependent on the performance gains, which have not had any objective data provided in this discussion that I've seen. I'm still shooting sub-1/2 MOA so I'm a little befuddled to see where the ground-breaking change comes in. Certainly doesn't warrant telling anyone they're stupid because they haven't reached the same conclusion that you have. Funny what you learn about the type of people who make claims like that....
You bought Greg's product and apparently like the guy so now his thinly veiled insults and hyperbole are facts of reality, to be coupled with your own hyperbole (3/4-1 MOA? maybe tumbling media isn't the problem???) and "good intentions" as you look down your nose at my shooting ability... that you have no knowledge of whatsoever? You certainly have an interesting reality, if nothing else.
Look, the bullshit aside, there are two factors which we would objectively be looking at. 1) Performance directly related to the types of tumbling media; SD, ES, precision, accuracy, and 2) Performance delta vs. input required to perform the process (wet vs. dry).
1) Milo is probably onto the idea that I agree with the most. Minus some plastic deformation in the neck, the operation of seating a bullet is mostly elastic-- the hoop stress of the press fit is what holds the bullet in place via friction. The force required to seat the bullet is mostly the same as the force required to remove the bullet from the neck (minus the plastic deformation beyond the elastic limit of the brass). So one would think that consistent seating force is the name of the game to work towards a performance increase (ES/SD from 'neck tension').
Are you going to tell me that dry lube in the form of burnt gunpowder is the ONLY way to ensure a consistent coefficient of friction between the bullet and casing? Think about it for a minute. Beyond that, are you really going to tell me that dry tumbling with rice is the ONLY way to ensure that a consistent coefficient of friction is achieved? Is 3/4-1 MOA really the limit of accuracy possible with wet tumbling SS media? I don't think so because I'm shooting sub 1/2 with single digit SD's...
As an aside for thought, what is the difference in 2lb of seating force in the face of 60ksi chamber pressure? I don't know; I don't think anyone does.
2) Both types of tumbling have their ups and downs. Dry tumbling is something I have done with several media types, including rice (although not the magic brand listed). I SS tumble now and don't consider going back dry. Both processes require picking media out of the cases, both processes take at least 1-2 hours start to finish, both processes require an added cleaner to the mix... What's the difference? One you have to wipe your cases down, the other they're bone dry and clean. So the work input is pretty similar-- one is not "Hell on earth" compared to the other... So if it's worth it or not is dependent on the performance gains, which have not had any objective data provided in this discussion that I've seen. I'm still shooting sub-1/2 MOA so I'm a little befuddled to see where the ground-breaking change comes in. Certainly doesn't warrant telling anyone they're stupid because they haven't reached the same conclusion that you have. Funny what you learn about the type of people who make claims like that....
I'm never too proud to prove myself wrong. This morning I loaded up 10 rounds without tumbling them at all, preserving the "as fired" distribution of soot or whatever that is supposed to aid in consistency. I FL bushing sized them just like I always do, wiped off the lube, trimmed, debured, and VLD chamfered them, just like I always do. Because I wasn't tumbling them, I cleaned the primer pockets by hand. Primed, them, was extra cautious on weighing charges ensuring the scale went back to 0 every time and seated the same bullets at the same depth that I always do.
In short, I loaded them exactly the same as normal, the only difference being they weren't tumbled beforehand. I then shot them, bipod and bag prone at 365 yards over a magnetospeed.
6.5 4s, 140 ELD-M 0.025" jump
Hornady Brass
60.6gr H1000, CCI 250 primer
28" Proof Research 1:8 barrel on an ARC M5 action
March 3-24x52 if that matters...
Dirty necks:
3145fps Avg
10fps SD
37fps ES
10 rounds out of my normal loads, SS media:
3142fps Avg
8fps SD
27fps ES
Accuracy had a slight nod to the dirty necks, but we're talking about the difference between 1.6" of vertical and 1.8" of vertical at 365yd, both 10-shot groups with a magnetospeed hanging off the end of the can, 92 degrees and me sweating my balls off. Windage was more, but I was holding center with 3-7mph variable winds, not offsetting for it at all so it's a bit of a waterline, 3-4" wide.
In other words, it's pretty much a wash. The sample size isn't really big enough to conclusively say one way is any better than the other. I mean if a guy really cared, you could do 50-100 rounds each way and document them all to look for the small trend deviation. Nonetheless, I'm not seeing any massive accuracy or ES/SD performance loss specifically from wet tumbling-- just as I never have in the past. Wet tumbled ES/SD numbers are pretty much identical to what I've seen in the past on this magnetospeed and a LabRadar unit. 3141-3147fps avg with SD in the 6-8fps range.
In short, I loaded them exactly the same as normal, the only difference being they weren't tumbled beforehand. I then shot them, bipod and bag prone at 365 yards over a magnetospeed.
6.5 4s, 140 ELD-M 0.025" jump
Hornady Brass
60.6gr H1000, CCI 250 primer
28" Proof Research 1:8 barrel on an ARC M5 action
March 3-24x52 if that matters...
Dirty necks:
3145fps Avg
10fps SD
37fps ES
10 rounds out of my normal loads, SS media:
3142fps Avg
8fps SD
27fps ES
Accuracy had a slight nod to the dirty necks, but we're talking about the difference between 1.6" of vertical and 1.8" of vertical at 365yd, both 10-shot groups with a magnetospeed hanging off the end of the can, 92 degrees and me sweating my balls off. Windage was more, but I was holding center with 3-7mph variable winds, not offsetting for it at all so it's a bit of a waterline, 3-4" wide.
In other words, it's pretty much a wash. The sample size isn't really big enough to conclusively say one way is any better than the other. I mean if a guy really cared, you could do 50-100 rounds each way and document them all to look for the small trend deviation. Nonetheless, I'm not seeing any massive accuracy or ES/SD performance loss specifically from wet tumbling-- just as I never have in the past. Wet tumbled ES/SD numbers are pretty much identical to what I've seen in the past on this magnetospeed and a LabRadar unit. 3141-3147fps avg with SD in the 6-8fps range.
