If they are shooting a BR or dasher, probably won't matter. Or 47 or creed for that matter.
Most likely a 6x47. Those are nearly identical velocities for mine.
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PRS Talk How does being in a “node” actually matter?
- Thread starter Dthomas3523
- Start date
If they are shooting a BR or dasher, probably won't matter. Or 47 or creed for that matter.
Most likely a 6x47. Those are nearly identical velocities for mine.
So I'm still learning but if you have a load that "sucks" but can employ proper SPC (Primal Rights, Promethius, Hydro-Press, case capacity, ogive measurements, etc) and get the statistical variables down as low as possible won't that load not "suck"? Pie in the sky but if every round is the same won't the performance be there?
Good info. So you are an advocate of the OCW method, except at distance? And you obviously believe in nodes, unlike the poster below you.
I have used various methods over the years, and am in the process of reevaluating my reloading processes and load development method.
Good info here, albeit a little overwhelming to someone in the process of revamping their processes.
Also, I’m not bashing anyone who does things differently at all.
Just always asking “why” and seeing what I’m missing or overlooked.
Fairly easy for anyone to test. Do your load development and tweak it all.
Then load some random charge you deemed was not worthy. Go to your range and shoot a mock up match (I take past cof’s). Shoot the same match and put in your best effort each time. See if there’s more than a handful of shot difference that you can’t explain via wind or position.
Just always asking “why” and seeing what I’m missing or overlooked.
Fairly easy for anyone to test. Do your load development and tweak it all.
Then load some random charge you deemed was not worthy. Go to your range and shoot a mock up match (I take past cof’s). Shoot the same match and put in your best effort each time. See if there’s more than a handful of shot difference that you can’t explain via wind or position.
@Dthomas3523 correct me if im off base here.
But I think what you are getting at, all else being equal. If I have a load that has an ES of 15, SD of 4 and groups consistently out to 800, does it even matter if its not in a "node"? Versus the load that does the same thing but is in a "node"?
But I think what you are getting at, all else being equal. If I have a load that has an ES of 15, SD of 4 and groups consistently out to 800, does it even matter if its not in a "node"? Versus the load that does the same thing but is in a "node"?
Basically yes. Which for most people, is easily achieved with modern loading equipment and components.
Are you saying that all loads with good quality components are equal for PRS use, provided good loading practices are used?
I’m saying any loads that have a consistent velocity that will hold an moa or better are fine for PRS use.
For example a 109 berger with avg velocity of 2790 with a low of 2770 and a high of 2820 is capable of about .3 (about 12”) of vertical spread at 1k. An ES of 40 will hold damn near and moa of vertical.
And that’s at 1k. The closer the target, the higher the ES can be and still hold inside 1 moa. At 600 yds, that’s a 4” vertical.
Here’s a random Internet pic as an example. You can tell this is a good barrel. Look at the change from 42.9-43.2. POI is really consistent and in between there it shifts up. I would hate to randomly choose 43-43.1 and be right on the edge of that shift. Sure you can be exact with your charges and such but why not choose a charge in the middle of that POI and have a huge pad on either side in case of variables?
You asked for reasons to look for a charge weight rather than just picking one. This is it. The chances of you choosing the “edge” charge are small but I’d rather avoid it considering how easy it is to do. And this is a subtitle target. I’ve had some on AR barrels especially that clearly show a pattern of the poi moving up and down pretty dramatically. My guess is this is the harmonics of the barrel but I have no proof of that. Either way it’s well worth the few rounds it takes to check IMO.
Again, I don’t find charge weights like this. So it doesn’t apply for me.
I use a chronograph for charge weights and then tune the seating depth after. This is the method used by members of Team Lapua/Berger.
I have never had a poi shift doing it this way to even remotely suggest it will happen, as I’ve turned the ammo to the harmonics of the barrel via seating and/tuner.
What you’re showing is the classic older way to find nodes which was designed when we didn’t have chronos and such that we do now.
Can anyone attest to their rifle changing POI mid match enough to miss targets?
An actual attribution that isn’t related to mirage/light or any other such non load related event?
An actual attribution that isn’t related to mirage/light or any other such non load related event?
For everything out there, there are countless stories about things going wrong.
My brake came loose
My scope rings came loose
My action screws
I got a carbon ring
I dropped rifle and zero shifted
Scope stopped tracking
Etc etc etc
Where are the “I didn’t do load development” “apparently I wasn’t in a node” “I guess I was at the upper end, and jumped out a node” stories?
As many people that load ammo, and a great deal of them don’t do it well......where are all the stories and cautionary tales of why you need to make sure you’re in a node?
My brake came loose
My scope rings came loose
My action screws
I got a carbon ring
I dropped rifle and zero shifted
Scope stopped tracking
Etc etc etc
Where are the “I didn’t do load development” “apparently I wasn’t in a node” “I guess I was at the upper end, and jumped out a node” stories?
As many people that load ammo, and a great deal of them don’t do it well......where are all the stories and cautionary tales of why you need to make sure you’re in a node?
load work up makes people who are good at lying to themselves feel good lol
there are a lot more experts at seeing what they want to believe than experts at reloading out there
there are a lot more experts at seeing what they want to believe than experts at reloading out there
That's not a good argument that it doesn't matter. The better argument is - I just looked through all my .223 data that I did this style of load development on. I could not find a single instance of two consecutive charges (usually ,3 gn apart) producing a shift of more than ,5 MOA on target at 100 yds. Shooting at a 2MOA target, this would never show up.
For PRS (since that is the target size context), have you seen a shift large enough that would have caused you to miss a target if you were just outside of the node?
i have a question for you guys that chase these perfect nodes...how far do you chase them? 1/10g 2/10g? whats the spread?
This.
The fact that, to my knowledge there's no consensus definition of what a node is? There's no consensus agreement on what constitutes a node. There isn't a consensus on what procedure to use on getting a node. Some guys use 1 round per charge weight, some use 3, some use 5. There isn't even a consensus on what increment of charge weight we should use. Is it 0.1gr, 0.2gr, 0.3gr or even 0.5gr.
So that tells me, at the minimum, that nodes aren't as important in the context of PRS as many would think. On the other end of the spectrum we could ask if they even exist in the first place or its just us looking for confirmation in our own methods
So, who here has ever seen vertical dispersion at distance and a chrono reading that only deviates a few fps from the rest of the group? I have seen this in the past.
@Dthomas3523 interesting concept. I often wonder what is actually neccesary and has a real world effect and what is simply best practice.
Do you think the extreme peaks and valleys people see have more to do with their own reloading precision and tolerance stacking amplified by the barrels harmonic wave?
Let's say.
Shooter A simply took once fired brass and ran it through a progressive press using a metered powder drop. No case prep.
Shooter B took the same once fired using all the best high end equipment and brass prep techniques to reload.
Both shot ladders on the same rifle. What would they look like?
That being said. Is it possible to put a value next to the different aspects of reloading based on the effect it has on SD ES, groups or whatever?
Do you think the extreme peaks and valleys people see have more to do with their own reloading precision and tolerance stacking amplified by the barrels harmonic wave?
Let's say.
Shooter A simply took once fired brass and ran it through a progressive press using a metered powder drop. No case prep.
Shooter B took the same once fired using all the best high end equipment and brass prep techniques to reload.
Both shot ladders on the same rifle. What would they look like?
That being said. Is it possible to put a value next to the different aspects of reloading based on the effect it has on SD ES, groups or whatever?
if youre asking about a single shot out of a group that still matches chrono numbers...
IMO this is what happens when a bullet doesnt fly like the rest (at the fault of the bullet, not the rifle/load), or lighting/mirage conditions cause a shift...assuming very small/no shooter error...the shooters im referencing dont randomly miss high/low .2-.5 at distance due to shooting skill
ive seen cloud cover/mirage effects shift POI at distance .2-.5 literally within minutes between multiple shooters...like shooting and everything is spot on and 1 shot to the next, all the sudden its off and impacts are different consistently...then 5 minutes later its back on again...ive seen it often enough to know its not just random shooter error
have seen it shift up and down with multiple rifles on the line and seen it shift during stages...theres a lot of things going on at distance and you cant control them all, 100% of the time
Im a sucky reloader.
Easy thing would be to blame my S1050 and its not being a precision machine.
I do the OCW, I look at groups and subjectively choose, I load plus or minus a .10 to see if I can get better.
I produce serviceable ammo but am never feeling the confidence I get when I open a box of FGMM.
I dont know why I cant just get the chrono numbers from shooting a box of 20 FGMM and use that as my target to load to.
If I want to tailor my messy production it would be by seating longer or deeper for each rifle. My machine already probably seats plus or minus by design.
Why not even try to get the same Base to ogive length as FGMM?
Seems logical to me.
Variable will be my X times fired brass and whatever slop the S1050 introduces in seating and HS.
I feel pretty good about powder consistency and primer seat.
Easy thing would be to blame my S1050 and its not being a precision machine.
I do the OCW, I look at groups and subjectively choose, I load plus or minus a .10 to see if I can get better.
I produce serviceable ammo but am never feeling the confidence I get when I open a box of FGMM.
I dont know why I cant just get the chrono numbers from shooting a box of 20 FGMM and use that as my target to load to.
If I want to tailor my messy production it would be by seating longer or deeper for each rifle. My machine already probably seats plus or minus by design.
Why not even try to get the same Base to ogive length as FGMM?
Seems logical to me.
Variable will be my X times fired brass and whatever slop the S1050 introduces in seating and HS.
I feel pretty good about powder consistency and primer seat.
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"Node" is being used very broadly in this discussion. From my personal experience and reading, a "node" is a range of adjustments where there is little to no change in resultant data.
Here are 3 different things which someone may call a "node"...
- Powder charge: a charge range that results in a "flat spot" of similar velocities, i.e. 36.0gr - 36.3gr are all the same velocity (ignore group size and POI)
- Bullet jump: a range of jump values that results in minimal POI shift, or "vertical". See SAC/PRB data. (ignore group size and velocity)
- Group POI: call it the "OCW method", which looks at the POI of each group with varying powder charges (ignore group size and velocity), and selects the range which has the least POI variance
Here are 2 resultants that I would say aren't a "node", but which may be selected as the final load and used to win a match with...
- Powder charge: a specific individual charge value that results in low SD/ES values (ignore group size)
- Group size: some combination of the above parameters that results in a small group size
I've always been in the camp of combining the parameters and selecting the load that best fulfills everything. Obviously cartridge selection helps, as 6.5x47L and 6GT have been easy for me in this regard. IME one can do this in 30 rounds, so the argument that "finding a node" is a costly or time intensive might not be true. I will admit up to this point I haven't generally done jump testing so that adds yet another variable. Some argue to find the load first then do jump test, while SAC argues to do the jump testing first.
I load 3 rounds x 10 charge weights, and shoot groups while measuring velocity data. I analyze the results like this:
Flat portion of velocity curve + low SD + small group + flat portion of POI = Winner winner. This is the goal, but if all parameters aren't met then you can still pick what's best based on what you're looking for, or how much time you have, or bullet jump/tuner adjustments. Maybe I've just gotten lucky over a small sampling of barrels, but in general my velocity flat spots also have a low SD and a small group size. So I just pick it and run it. If I was doing a wildcat or way overbore cartridge that was "finicky" maybe it would take a bunch more work.
Truth telling time.... I'm a super meticulous reloader and do a proper load workup with new components, new barrels. OCW style group test at 100, over a chrono, look at ES/SD, look at any POI shifts, look for velocity flat spots. Last 5-6 barrels with 6BR variants have gone like this.
Damn, all those groups look pretty good.
Damn, all those SD/ED numbers look pretty good.
Not much POI shift
No real velocity flat spots.
Pick one of the groups that looks small. Shoot at distance... yep, it shoots small.
Could just have easily thrown a handful of powder in the case and been fine.
Damn, all those groups look pretty good.
Damn, all those SD/ED numbers look pretty good.
Not much POI shift
No real velocity flat spots.
Pick one of the groups that looks small. Shoot at distance... yep, it shoots small.
Could just have easily thrown a handful of powder in the case and been fine.
I don't disagree with your conclusion. And to @Dthomas3523 's original question, for cartridges like BR-variants, using premium rifle components and premium reloading equipment (as many do) it likely doesn't matter as long as you somehow find a load that shoots small. But even if the load workup is purely academic, somehow you have to load some amount(s) of powder with a bullet and at least see if it shoots small. Maybe it's pure coincidence that the small groups have small SD/ES and minimal POI shift, or maybe they're all tied together.
I might make the argument that a new shooter with a factory rifle and barrel, in 6.5 Creed with mixed lot Hornady brass, throwing with a volume dropper or Chargemaster...it will likely take a bit more work.
Many are making the argument that this is purely from a PRS perspective. 1 - 2 MOA targets, generally <800 yds, with a heavy barreled, heavy weight rifles chambered in 6mm or maybe 6.5mm. Seems like many have anecdotally proven for that perspective almost any style of load development can work.
Does it apply to other disciplines is another question entirely.
My argument would be I don’t use it because I don’t think it’s worth doing with modern equipment.
And the reasons it was used in the past make it obsolete and unnecessary today.
But I’m attempting to avoid getting into that conversation because proponents of this method get very defensive when you challenge it.
ive seen mixing lots of all components being the largest factor in load variations for a ton of shooters no matter the rifle or reloading setup...a bunch of people think just because its a 108 eld or says h4350 on the jug, theyre the same...and its rarely the case, sometimes sure...but not over months, years, thousands of rounds...
the better/more expensive components are pretty good at keeping it really close for the most part, but not perfect
mixed lots of brass
buying small lots of powder that constantly changes over the life of the barrel
buying small lots of bullets that are also changing
add in primers as well
theyre constantly trying to hit a moving target
i get buying what you can afford...but if possible, and someone was having to make compromises, id figure out ways to buy the largest lot quantities of components i possibly could, and a lot of those little headaches will go away
I use quickload and optimal barrel time calculator. Get velocity data during break in, true quickload, shoot to pressure to establish a safe max for that gun, drop down 2 or 3 grains under safe max and see where the obt lines up with calculator. Last thing is seating depth to dial it in. I started doing this over the last year. Bryan Litz told me his process so I modified it to work with QL. So far it has not let me down. Every rifle I have is running its best somewhere between 3.5 to 1.5 grains below safe max. QL just tells me so I don't waste a lot of time trying to find it. I also use Gempro 250 and Lee hand press at range. As I true QL I load a few where it says and test them. I will shoot either side of it too just to be sure. They always shoot within .2 grains of where QL says and are within 10fps of QL.
Lol at the guys here that listened to the recent interviews and are now 100% against load work up and acting like they don’t understand what us simpletons are looking for when doing it.
My definition of a node is a similar (mainly vertical) POI for a range of charges. Being in a node avoids landing on the edge of a POI shift. It has nothing to do with speed or numbers. Here’s another example.
I’d feel good about 45 on this target. Both sides of it show consistent vertical spread. But what if I randomly chose 45.5with no test? I would land on the edge of that POI shift down. Would it matter? I don’t know I’ve never attempted to land on the edge of a node. Could you tune it with seating depth? I don’t know. But POI shifts through different charge weights are real. Maybe it matters maybe it doesn’t. But considering how easy it is to test and avoid there’s no reason not to do it. You’re going to need to find your max load and check speed anyway. Just use that progression of rounds to check POI on the charges.
And again, when you’re shooting a straight taper Brux barrel it prob isn’t going to shift much if at all. So if that’s what you’re loading for you very likely can just throw a random load in and go with it. When I work up a heavy, premium barrel everything lands pretty much in the same spot. Work up a .750 AR barrel and you may not have the same result.
My definition of a node is a similar (mainly vertical) POI for a range of charges. Being in a node avoids landing on the edge of a POI shift. It has nothing to do with speed or numbers. Here’s another example.
I’d feel good about 45 on this target. Both sides of it show consistent vertical spread. But what if I randomly chose 45.5with no test? I would land on the edge of that POI shift down. Would it matter? I don’t know I’ve never attempted to land on the edge of a node. Could you tune it with seating depth? I don’t know. But POI shifts through different charge weights are real. Maybe it matters maybe it doesn’t. But considering how easy it is to test and avoid there’s no reason not to do it. You’re going to need to find your max load and check speed anyway. Just use that progression of rounds to check POI on the charges.
And again, when you’re shooting a straight taper Brux barrel it prob isn’t going to shift much if at all. So if that’s what you’re loading for you very likely can just throw a random load in and go with it. When I work up a heavy, premium barrel everything lands pretty much in the same spot. Work up a .750 AR barrel and you may not have the same result.
Do you see that at all temperatures/environmentals that you shoot? Or do you find that different loads behave a bit differently in different environmentals?
Some people's reloading practices seem to be more to the benefit of their own psychosis then any real down range benefit.
I've found that with good quality components (lapua brass, berger bullets) and quality reloading equipment (autotrickler with FX-120i for example), you can make almost any reasonable load work. As @Sheldon N mentions, with my 6BRA for example, I can get low SD's/ES's with most any reasonable powder charge, but I do weigh to 0.02 grains (my own psychosis perhaps). For bullet seating, I started at 10 thou off the lands with 105 berger hybrids, and I have no clue how far they are jumping now as I don't measure or chase lands. Still shoots tiny holes.
There's a lot of lore and myth in reloading, with a lot of reloading "facts" based more on mere anecdotal experiences then anything scientific and qualitative.
On the flip side, when you go too simple like the "Satterlee method", you don't gain any real useful data, besides approximate velocity per charge weight. You're certainly not going to find any so-called "node" with that method.
I agree with @Dthomas3523, in that you should test for yourself what makes a difference and what doesn't, rather then blindly following someone's method because they have a cool YouTube channel or are on a podcast. For PRS style shooting, some shooters sure do waste their time in the reloading room performing tasks that don't really matter.
I've found that with good quality components (lapua brass, berger bullets) and quality reloading equipment (autotrickler with FX-120i for example), you can make almost any reasonable load work. As @Sheldon N mentions, with my 6BRA for example, I can get low SD's/ES's with most any reasonable powder charge, but I do weigh to 0.02 grains (my own psychosis perhaps). For bullet seating, I started at 10 thou off the lands with 105 berger hybrids, and I have no clue how far they are jumping now as I don't measure or chase lands. Still shoots tiny holes.
There's a lot of lore and myth in reloading, with a lot of reloading "facts" based more on mere anecdotal experiences then anything scientific and qualitative.
On the flip side, when you go too simple like the "Satterlee method", you don't gain any real useful data, besides approximate velocity per charge weight. You're certainly not going to find any so-called "node" with that method.
I agree with @Dthomas3523, in that you should test for yourself what makes a difference and what doesn't, rather then blindly following someone's method because they have a cool YouTube channel or are on a podcast. For PRS style shooting, some shooters sure do waste their time in the reloading room performing tasks that don't really matter.
the other thing is a lot of ppl just like tweaking...which is fine...I do not I want to get there as fast as possible and be done...unlike a lot of ppl I do not like reloading I do it because it’s a necessary evil.
Agreed. Wanting to tweak and mess with stuff is perfectly fine. Many times I prep brass more so than I really need. Because I don’t mind it and I have the tools.
I do think we need to start re-defining what we are looking for and why. As far as I can see, no one was able to produce an actual example of something going to shit because they weren’t in a “node.” All I saw was hypotheticals and theories.
Here’s some brain hurting logic. Everyone’s barrel break in method works.....because it doesn’t really do anything or matter. Everyone’s personal load development seems to work, so........
I think with modern chronos and components, instead of “nodes” we should be looking for consistency of loading methods (brass prep, powder drop, etc). And if we want to emphasize nodes, I’d put more effort into seating depth than I would powder.
To me, as a complete non-expert, these are second order effects by which people attempt to hit a "node" but the first order definition of a "node" is when the muzzle is at either the top or bottom of the vibration sine wave as the bullet exits.
Am I wrong on this?
@Dthomas3523
I agree 100% about powder...I do not do any brass prep as far as turning neck or uniforming primer pockets ECT and I recently started loading on a Dillon press...550 for a month or so now a 750.
for all you node guys this is a 6BRA varget 109 hybrid all loaded on a Dillon 750 using the Dillon powder throw with up to a .6g(last I checked)difference in powder drops
11 rounds at 100yds
5 In the head at 714yds
I agree 100% about powder...I do not do any brass prep as far as turning neck or uniforming primer pockets ECT and I recently started loading on a Dillon press...550 for a month or so now a 750.
for all you node guys this is a 6BRA varget 109 hybrid all loaded on a Dillon 750 using the Dillon powder throw with up to a .6g(last I checked)difference in powder drops
11 rounds at 100yds
5 In the head at 714yds
I don’t mess with primer pockets. I will neck turn if I have time since I have an IDOD. It’s fast and easy. But I don’t worry if I don’t.
I’m pretty big on making sure my neck tension is consistent. I’ll use pin gauges to spot check.
I’ve found as long as I keep the powder drop and neck tension consistent, it’s pretty hard to have shitty chrono numbers.
It sounds to me that the scenario the OP presented is invalid for the question because both shooters found their Nodes. The whole idea of a Node is to find the recipe your Rifle System likes. It really doesn't matter if you find it through experimentation and multiple range trips; or by throwing a 36-sided dice.
Clearly you haven’t read the thread.
I can thrown *any* powder charge in my rifles (as long as not over pressure of course) and they all have chrono numbers plenty good enough for PRS.
I could have you and 5 others give me random charge weights and they would be under 40 ES.
And I could take a berger bullet loaded .020 off lands and it will be on the .5 moa area.
only other thing I load is 9mm right now but I shot a 260 for 7yrs and threw charges right out of a lee perfect powder measure and out to 650yds it shot very well past that things opened up but I look back on that and have to think a lot of that was me...I have made HUGE improvements in my shooting since then.
see I use to be a super tweaker too but as I figured things out I realized that all that tweaking never made me a better shooter and no matter how good I loaded ammo if I could not shoot as well as the load would then all that extra time was a waste.
now that I’m a better shooter I’ve figured out that I do not need perfect ammo to shoot small groups or win matches I just need good ammo and more trigger time.
@CarlosDJackal
Tell me why any of these charge weights wouldn’t work if I put them all on a piece of paper and pulled one out of a hat:
Tell me why any of these charge weights wouldn’t work if I put them all on a piece of paper and pulled one out of a hat:
Also interesting that everyone seems to have a different definition of “node.”
I’ve found neck tension is probably the most important thing...with up to(and possibly more).6g powder variation I have a 35fps ES which is 5fps over what I normally like to see as a high but loading on the 750 is so fast and easy I’ll deal with the ES until I see a problem.
That’s going to depend on what you’re looking for. I think what most people try to do is an OCW test. Most don’t do it right, but with OCW POI is what you’re looking for. So the “node” you should be hunting if you’re attempting an OCW test is a similar POI through a range of charges.
Have you loaded on a lot of different calibers/barrel profiles?
Unfortunately for scientific purposes the conditions at my range haven't changed much since I started loading for my RPR and I'm still only learning. I switched away from 4350 to 4451. Not because one is better than the other, but I can't find 4350 anywhere and it seems everyone has 4451. That said my last four loads with 4451 were almost exactly the same as the 4350. SD was around 17, but one load was 3.9. I'll be trying that one again.
Node defined as a velocity flat spot is BS, maybe you get one most likely you will not.
And if you do get one 99% of the time you shoot the test again you will get different results.
I simply look for point of impact consistency for a range of consecutive charge weights that produce the velocity I am looking for.
If I can get say a charge of 41.1g to 41.5gr to group in the same spot that is my load. I will pick 41.4 and 41.3 and play with the
seating depth.
The chart you posted, if you are just picking out of a hat then why not just pick the highest velocity with lowest SD and your done.
Will the random load you picked give you consistency?
.
Why would you not want to check to find out?
Or are you going to rely on seating depth to tighten up the larger groups and call it good?
How many of those loads are going to bughole, and how many are going to shoot sub par? Are there any POI shifts taking place in that charge range? Will there be a shift when it gets hot or cold?
Why would you not want to check to find out?
Or are you going to rely on seating depth to tighten up the larger groups and call it good?
