Rifle Scopes How Far Do You Shoot With A Red Dot

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nick338

Commander- of what I have no idea
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Feb 21, 2013
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#1
Can't seem to decide on a red dot or LPVO. The rifle in question is a 13.7 with permanently attached muzzle brake to bring it legal. I hate the cliche SHTF but essentially this is that rifle and so many trade offs come in to play, I'm beyond frustrated. Weight and the ability to pick up the rifle and have a sight that is ready to use without fumbling for illumination dials or knobs are high on the list so an Aimpoint Comp M4s is my first choice and I would like to know how far you have engaged standard sized steel or paper targets with high hit percentage.

I have used both red dots and LPVO's on similar rifles but keep convincing myself that I need which ever one is not currently in. There are certainly advantages at distance with a scope but the 2 points I made besides the fact that I can't seem to fall in love with any of them as a whole is driving me crazy. I love the field of view and eye box of the new Vortex but I don't love the reticle, it's too busy and I like a smaller center dot, and it's heavy. The Kahles is lighter but when I don't have it and a mount on the rifle and just run a red dot, the rifle handles so much more to my liking. 3GR reticle is good but I don't think the scope is as durable as a NF or the Vortex. Not a fan of the small field of view or the reticles on either NF scope so here I am again just thinking about running an Aimpoint.

Thoughts on this?
 
#3
I’m old enough to remember shooting Army qual with iron sights and remember when CCOs first came out. Qual scores for guys went up like 3-5 hits on average. So they’re better than irons on average out to at least 300m.

I also remember when we started getting ACOGs. I don’t think the improvement was as dramatic then. I’d still argue having a little magnification is a good thing. Not all targets are the size of an E-Type silhouette.
 
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#4
JC0352 said:
Do you have a requirement for how far you need to identify targets?
Click to expand...

That's part of the problem. Personally I have no "requirement" but given that every situation would be different at what distance is a PID useless with a red dot?
 
#5
nick338 said:
That's part of the problem. Personally I have no "requirement" but given that every situation would be different at what distance is a PID useless with a red dot?
Click to expand...
I guess it all depends on the individual and terrain they’re most likely to find themselves in... I enjoyed the 4x on the acog while scanning a few hundred yards down alley ways in Ramadi much more than an aimpoint.

Common sense and reason makes me think that in a defensive, SHTF situation that threats aren’t going to be several hundred yards away so a dot would be sufficient, but some conditions make it nice to have a little bit of magnification. Don’t forget bad shit tends to happen at night. Does your light compliment the capability of your sighting system in low light if you’re not on NODs?
 
#6
I shoot all the way to the target OP.

500 yards on 2/3 size silhouettes is easy enough once yo know your holdovers and if you can see the target. I don’t shoot my AR further than that. Hell I never let it touch a bench either.

If you can see your target you can hit it. A 10”plate at 300 yards can blend in with the surroundings if it isn't painted and make it tougher to hit without magnification. Paint it white and now its easy. The advantage of magnification is it helps a man see better.
 
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#7
JC0352 said:
I guess it all depends on the individual and terrain they’re most likely to find themselves in... I enjoyed the 4x on the acog while scanning a few hundred yards down alley ways in Ramadi much more than an aimpoint.

Common sense and reason makes me think that in a defensive, SHTF situation that threats aren’t going to be several hundred yards away so a dot would be sufficient, but some conditions make it nice to have a little bit of magnification. Don’t forget bad shit tends to happen at night. Does your light compliment the capability of your sighting system in low light if you’re not on NODs?
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree with you more on the distance and being able to scan which is why I like some magnification.

The subject of the light raises a whole new issue. It's a Surefire but at what point do I scrap it and switch to an IR illuminator and NV?
 
#8
wade2big said:
I shoot all the way to the target OP.

500 yards on 2/3 size silhouettes is easy enough once yo know your holdovers and if you can see the target. I don’t shoot my AR further than that. Hell I never let it touch a bench either.

If you can see your target you can hit it. A 10”plate at 300 yards can blend in with the surroundings if it isn't painted and make it tougher to hit without magnification. Paint it white and now its easy. The advantage of magnification is it helps a man see better.
Click to expand...

You guys are bringing up all very valid points that I keep mulling over. Which is why I can't make a damn decision.
 
#9
Terrain could be anything from condensed urban, to vast farm land to mountainous terrain with dense forests. All are within a 50 mile radius.
 
#13
JC0352 said:
It sounds like you know exactly what you want and may have to compromise somewhere. What about a dot and magnifier for when you need to scan?
Click to expand...

Thought about the magnifier but it bugs me hanging off the side like it does. Other than adding more weight, it's probably the most logical solution though.
 
#16
Try the magnifier. It's not a problem folded off to the side at all. Or get a twist off and carry it in a pouch or as suggested the very high (good for night vision... a bit weird prone IMO) Unity FAST stuff.

When I was younger, I switched to RDS and saw the speed/accuracy increases over irons. But as I get older, much worse eyes, I can't find targets out past 200 yds even on flat ranges. Many love the LPVO, and I have a couple, but I mostly settled on RDS+magnifier. If you are close to totally happy with RDS, but worry about range (or PID at range) then the easy solution is to add a magnifier: 100%.

Get a good one. I love the EoTech G.33 (won't use their HWS, but great magnifiers). Don't go cheap, or you'll be disappointed.
 
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#18
My eyes are way too bad to shoot any real distance with a red dot. With a good true 1-4x on a 13-14.5" AR, I have no trouble with hits out to 600 on 4x and can easily engage targets up close with both eyes open at 1x. Hurts me a bit being a right handed shooter and left eye dominant...
 
#19
nick338 said:
I'll check it out, thanks.
Click to expand...

www.unitytactical.com

UNITY™ Tactical | FAST™ Optic Mounts

The UNITY™ Tactical FAST™ series of optic mounts provides end users with a quicker sight picture than standard height mounts. A taller centerline height provides faster/easier reticle acquisition in all conditions, but especially while wearing tactical gear, night vision goggles, gas masks...
www.unitytactical.com www.unitytactical.com
 
#20
Skookum said:
A 3x prism sight is the solution you are looking for.
Click to expand...

nick338 said:
Unless I'm missing something how would that be fast up close?
Click to expand...

I changed from 3x prism to a red dot recently . I didn't like the 3x prism for up close multiple target. There is no perfect one optic do all. I switched to red dot since I don't live on a ranch or farm where may need the 200+ yds. I felt optimizing for the 150 yd and under was more important to me at this moment in time.
 
#21
nick338 said:
Unless I'm missing something how would that be fast up close?
Click to expand...
Not as fast as a red dot, but it will work. Some are better than others. We use ACOGS, but I just bought a Sightmark CST1100 that isn't bad.

A MRD at 45 degrees would be better though.

Magnification + speed - weight isn't an easy problem to solve. IMO a reflex w/MRD is about as viable as it gets. Magnifiers take up too much rail space and too much weight for the amount of time they are actually in use.
 
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#24
The LPV does many things well and lives on with a dead battery. A red dot does many things well, and is a rear site aperture when the battery dies.

For life-n-death, I like fool-proof.

And don't skimp on the light, it is so much more important than the optic.
 
#25
My RDS(s), are sighted-in at 50yds., and I can shoot 5 diff. types of ammo, with a 10.5" pistol, and keep them all within a 4" group at 100yrds., so, I'm GtG with that. But, I've shot it out to 200yds., on a 8" plate, with decent luck (6 out of 10 hit success rate). Now, shooting out to 300yds., that's more of a challenge and I can't brag on those results. Mac
 
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#26
Rancid Coolaid said:
The LPV does many things well and lives on with a dead battery. A red dot does many things well, and is a rear site aperture when the battery dies.

For life-n-death, I like fool-proof.

And don't skimp on the light, it is so much more important than the optic.
Click to expand...

It does live on with a dead battery but the same mentality could be applied to a reticle if the scope takes a beating and not holding zero. Nothing is indestructible but I hear the Aimpoints can take a hell of a lot of punishment. Not saying anyone is wrong here but I just can't bring all the details to light without discussing it with people that live it every day.

Second person to stress the light. Is a Surefire Scout dual fuel not a good choice?
 
#28
nick338 said:
It does live on with a dead battery but the same mentality could be applied to a reticle if the scope takes a beating and not holding zero. Nothing is indestructible but I hear the Aimpoints can take a hell of a lot of punishment. Not saying anyone is wrong here but I just can't bring all the details to light without discussing it with people that live it every day.

Second person to stress the light. Is a Surefire Scout dual fuel not a good choice?
Click to expand...

The reticle isn't battery powered, maybe that is a better way to say it. A failure that kills a tube scope probably does harm to other stuff too. The same is not true of a red dot battery dying.
On the light, great light, just reinforcing that the light is far, far more important in this situation than is an optic with whatever features.

Carry on.
 
#29
JC0352 said:
That’s a great light, man. If you wanted more reach, you can read up on the Cloud Defensive REIN or the Modlite (specifically w/ their OKW head).
Click to expand...

I almost bought the Cloud Defensive but the weight made me cringe. Don't remember if I researched the Modlite or not. One of the points I liked about the Surefire was the mount that secures to the top rail and not the M-lok and how tightly it sits against the handguard with that mount.
 
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#30
Hello Nick338,

I have had this same battle with myself over the last couple of years since I started competing in a local AR15 match. We shoot 7-300 yards in the match and when I first started I was using a 10.5" SBR with an Aimpoint PRO. I struggled to be consistent from match to match with the 2 MOA dot at 300 yards. I switched to an Eotech with a magnifier which helped significantly but I still wasn't as consistent at 300 as I wanted to be.

Eventually, I built a 13.7" with a pinned/welded brake, Vortex Viper PST 1-6 with a Trijicon SRO (1MOA) mounted to an Arisaka offset mount. This setup weighs exactly 8lbs (unloaded) and has served me well from point-blank out to 500 yards.

I would recommend a decent LPVO with an offset microdot. The Ariskaka offset allows for mounting the dot at 35 or 45 degrees, depending on what you can fit next to your scope. I have my SRO at 35 degrees and mounted in front of the scope mount.
 
#31
Clutch_Avery said:
Hello Nick338,

I have had this same battle with myself over the last couple of years since I started competing in a local AR15 match. We shoot 7-300 yards in the match and when I first started I was using a 10.5" SBR with an Aimpoint PRO. I struggled to be consistent from match to match with the 2 MOA dot at 300 yards. I switched to an Eotech with a magnifier which helped significantly but I still wasn't as consistent at 300 as I wanted to be.

Eventually, I built a 13.7" with a pinned/welded brake, Vortex Viper PST 1-6 with a Trijicon SRO (1MOA) mounted to an Arisaka offset mount. This setup weighs exactly 8lbs (unloaded) and has served me well from point-blank out to 500 yards.

I would recommend a decent LPVO with an offset microdot. The Ariskaka offset allows for mounting the dot at 35 or 45 degrees, depending on what you can fit next to your scope. I have my SRO at 35 degrees and mounted in front of the scope mount.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info and I was toying with a similar idea but using a Reptilia mount and Deltapoint in front of the elevation turret instead of an offset mount. Then I started stressing over the weight of the entire setup and questioning what I would actually be using the rifle for. I like to shoot tiny little groups and hit small plates at long distance but that doesn't really apply in this situation.

I need something bombproof, lighter in weight, fast and illuminated whenever I grab it. I think an Aimpoint or Eotech is where I will end up. My vision is still excellent so the 1 moa dot on the Eotech should be doable at 300 yards on an 18x12 sized target.
 
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#35
An Eotech with the 1MOA center dot is very nice when stretching out to 300 yards, especially if not magnified. That was my major hangup with the Aimpoint, that 2MOA dot was taking up 6" of the 10" targets I had to hit during competition. If your max assumed distance is 300 yards, a 1MOA dot should do just fine.

If you decide to add magnification, Trijicon now makes a 3x magnifier with a great mount. The magnifier/mount is very small and light compared to others. The only issue I have with mine is the "Made in China" label printed on it. Function wise, I have zero complaints.
 
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#36
Actually went with a Trijicon TA01 4x32, lightweight mount and running an adjustable RMR on top. Hopefully I'll see it in the next year or so lol.
 
#37
I'm thinking of picking up the 6x Aimpoint magnifier (see this thread here for some discussion) to add to my SHTF rifle with an EOTech. Seems to me that being able to have a handy, removable 6x for PID or longer shots that can also be easily removed and popped back on is handy. Yes you lose some of the benefits of a LPVO but you also gain some advantages.
 
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