How far will a ricochet go?

[Dirtdigger]

The reason i ask this is after corn is out this fall i will be able to set up a "range" in a friends field.

Is there even a safe range to guess, or is this just stupid without a bullet stop.

We are going to try our hand at 1000 yrds for the first time on steel plates

shooting from a hill top to an adjacent hill with a long gentle slope going up away from us.

We will be using mostly 308's.

I will NOT try this if i don't think we can be safe. Closest house is about mile and a half away from targets.

Anyone have any info that isn't an out right guess??

 

[quattrodoc]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

1.5 miles? You're safe.

 

[Wolvenhaven]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

It all depends on the angle of deflection. If you're worried about not hitting the plate right on 90 degrees so that it will shatter, angle the plate about 15 degrees down towards the ground so that any fragments and bullets will embed in the hill.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

I don't know how much they charge but start here http://www.nrahq.org/shootingrange/sourcebook.asp a ricochet will not increase but will decrease the range of a projectile because the change in direction will take energy away.

 

[Dirtdigger]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Its not so much about what angle the plate is at when we hit it but more about when we miss(cuz i know we will...alot

).

I know a bullet will travel alot farther than 2 miles direct flight, but after hitting dirt how far will it still travel is what i'm after.
Most probably won't go anywhere but if one hits a rock or ricochets just right....

I figured what better place to ask than here, after all you guys are the reason i want to hit something with a little tiny bullet over a half mile away.

 

[bowslngr]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

military surface danger zones for 7.62x51 go out to 4100 meters from the firing point. That would translate to a bit over 3100 meters beyond your target (~ 2 miles). I think that is a worst case that included the possibility of firing at a relatively high angle into the air though.
I am thinking that 1.5 miles should be enough. Not only does the ricochet cause a loss of energy, but it also causes bullet deformation which destroys the ballistic coeficient.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

they all go a certain distance.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

If you honestly believe there's a reasonable chance your spent bullets will go someplace problematic, it is <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> responsibility to change that situation for the better.

I'm not talking about making bad consequences impossible; I doubt that's reasonably possible. Rather, I mean that if there's a means to improve the odds in a manner that can be reasonably accomplished, it makes little sense not to.

For example, the shooting position can be configured with wooden baffling that confines the angles at which rounds can emerge from the firing point with sufficient energy to reach a harmful place. A round that has to pass through 2 layers of two-by is not going to go so far with so much force.

Once the impact area is narrowed by baffling, that impact area can be improved with a berm, and possibly even a gravel impact surface to absorb hits.

The point here is not just to prevent unintended consequences, but more importantly to demonstrate in advance that thay have been taken into account in a responsible and reasonable manner.

It such consequences ever reach the point where they become a matter for review by a dozen of so of your peers, your precautions can weigh heavily in your favor.

The key here is the word 'reasonable'. You are not obliged to take action that spares no expense to the point where it makes your activity impossible. But if affordable means can be employed, it can pay forward to do so.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Completely aside from the statement above, I see little value to practice and/or training with a centerfire. Their level of energy is essentially unrelated to the goals and benefits of training. A .22LR can do the same thing with less cost, or the need for extensive impact overrun distances. Any actual shooting with the centerfire may be best confined to the rifle's primary purpose, as well as load performance confirmation and zero data acquisition. Anything beyond these activities expends bore life and ammunition costs unnecessarily, and leads to questions like the one we began with here.

Greg

 

[bohem]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Take the impact velocity and multiply by 0.55

For shallow angle impacts into dirt/shale/small rocks this is the number that was quoted to my while doing a ballistics project for Gentex Corp. It was part of the K-pot upgrade that happened from 2005-2007 and part of the testing involved skipped bullets.

For a highly conservative estimate consider that you take a full value BC and run the simulation from your 1000yd impact velocity (let's say 1200fps for a high BC 308 launched bullet)

Exit speed is about 700fps (I don't have a calculator handy, so lets just run the numbers).

Take that as your "Launch velocity" and input it into JBM's Max Range calculator. Take the max range possible that JBM spits out, add it to your target distance, and you have your potential damage range.

Actually, let's run some numbers:

208 Amax @ 2800fps (use my 30-06 for example)
1000' DA
1591fps @ 1000yd

55% of 1591fps = 875.05 fps


Maximum Distance
Input Data
Manufacturer: Hornady Description: Amax (Litz)
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 208.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 875.0 ft/s
Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 1000.0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: Yes Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07426 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1112.6 ft/s
Initial Angle: 37.5 deg Terminal Angle: 54.3 deg
<span style="font-weight: bold">Terminal Range: 3696.7 yd</span> Terminal Velocity: 456.1 ft/s
Terminal Time: 26.4 s Terminal Energy: 96.1 ft•lbs


Terminal Range + Target Range = 3697+1000 ~ 4700yd



The reality of that calculation is that the BC is heavily affected upon impact, generally stability is lost and the bullet tumbles for a few hundred yards and hits the ground.

It's also highly unlikely that the incidence angle will work out to a reflection angle to spit the bullet out to an optimal trajectory for max distance.

The goal is a conservative estimate, this is a highly conservative estimate. 4700yd with my 30-06 shooting 208 Amax's.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Do they plow the fields out there? If so, shoot into the mounds rather than parallel with them.

 

[*greenhorn*]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Take the impact velocity and multiply by 0.55

For shallow angle impacts into dirt/shale/small rocks this is the number that was quoted to my while doing a ballistics project for Gentex Corp. It was part of the K-pot upgrade that happened from 2005-2007 and part of the testing involved skipped bullets.

For a highly conservative estimate consider that you take a full value BC and run the simulation from your 1000yd impact velocity (let's say 1200fps for a high BC 308 launched bullet)


Exit speed is about 700fps (I don't have a calculator handy, so lets just run the numbers).

Take that as your "Launch velocity" and input it into JBM's Max Range calculator. Take the max range possible that JBM spits out, add it to your target distance, and you have your potential damage range.

Actually, let's run some numbers:

208 Amax @ 2800fps (use my 30-06 for example)
1000' DA
1591fps @ 1000yd

55% of 1591fps = 875.05 fps


Maximum Distance
Input Data
Manufacturer: Hornady Description: Amax (Litz)
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 208.0 gr
Muzzle Velocity: 875.0 ft/s
Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 1000.0 ft
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: Yes Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07426 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1112.6 ft/s
Initial Angle: 37.5 deg Terminal Angle: 54.3 deg
<span style="font-weight: bold">Terminal Range: 3696.7 yd</span> Terminal Velocity: 456.1 ft/s
Terminal Time: 26.4 s Terminal Energy: 96.1 ft•lbs


Terminal Range + Target Range = 3697+1000 ~ 4700yd



The reality of that calculation is that the BC is heavily affected upon impact, generally stability is lost and the bullet tumbles for a few hundred yards and hits the ground.

It's also highly unlikely that the incidence angle will work out to a reflection angle to spit the bullet out to an optimal trajectory for max distance.

The goal is a conservative estimate, this is a highly conservative estimate. 4700yd with my 30-06 shooting 208 Amax's. </div></div>

wheres my calculator on my iphone, my head hurts lol, good info got it saved

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Thanks, Boh;

I never addressed the actual question. But I still offer the same suggestions.

Greg

 

[Alderleet]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Why dont you setup a sort of makeshift backstop?

Like, get a couple 8x4 panels of particle board, some 2x4's, and some gravel. Nail it together and make a chipboard/gravel sandwich

The bullet has a wide area to miss, and the bullet should deform violently and either stay inside the sandwich, or deflect into the dirt. Plus, if it does punch through, the bullet will be so wrecked that it will have the flight pattern of a football tossed end over end.

 

[spaniel]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: quattrodoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1.5 miles? You're safe. </div></div>

I've personally been present when someone from 1.5 miles downrange of a 300WM showed up to complain of more than one richochet passing over his head from about 1.5 miles from the point of fire. Shooters had thought that would be far enough given that the bullets were landing in plowed ground. Turns out the Accubonds and Remington Core-Lokts were deforming and bouncing around close behind the target...the 200SMKs were taking off...

After witnessing that I don't trust centerfire shooting without a berm except with varmint bullets or in really remote areas.

 

[John L]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirtdigger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Closest house is about mile and a half away from targets.
</div></div>

Damn you must live in a populated area of South Dakota to have a neighbor that close.

 

[Dirtdigger]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Well i would never have guessed this would get so much attention, but i'm happy it did.

To answer some questions:

I do live in the populated part of the state, 25 miles NW of Sioux Falls. This is actually probably the only place i know of that i can get 1.5 miles without a house on property that i can shoot.

Yes the field will be plowed and will be shooting against the mounds not with them.

Yes i will probably make a makeshift back stop of some sort. I am a heavy equipment operator and the land owner just happens to have a payloader and an excavator so that helps. Now i can't just go making holes in a perfectly nice corn field so we can go play for the weekend

, but i can pull up some topsoil and make a mound.

As for the .22lr trainer, i do realize they have their place but i really don't get a kick out of shoothing a 22 at 300 yrds. Is it challenging...yes, does it make me better...yes. In the end this isn't practice or training, this is my friends and I going out to shoot, we don't care about the cost. I want to do this because i want to do this, pretty simple.

All in all after seeing some of the common sense replys and the technical ones i do believe we will be safe, especially after we do some dirt work.

Now i just need to find someone with a LRF that will work to 1200 or so, hmm.....

 

[sinister]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Ricochets are unpredictable. Anyone who has ever seen full-automatic tracer fire can attest to that.

You can google "DA Pamphlet 385-63, Range Safety" and in chapter 6 find how military Range Control calculates and establishes generic small arms downrange hazard areas.

 

[spot69221]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirtdigger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How far will a ricochet go?</div></div>

...All the way to the scene of the crime

 

[Shredder58]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

At least you are asking the right questions before you start putting lead down range. I have a cop for a neighbor and had an "incident" where he thought he could start shooting a pistol in his back yard without any thought to other neighbors around him. I called 911 on that one, after he refused to listen when I tried to talk to him in a neighborly fashion. The thing that kind of amazed me was the two cops who responded to the call tried to tell me they saw nothing wrong with the situation as my neighbor was shooting into a backstop (that's what they called the flat field that went for a few hundred yards behind his firing line) and there was no law against "shooting on your own property". I have shot a few shooting matches with various law enforcement officers, so it really came as no surprise that most don't really know what makes a safe shooting range and what does not. The other thing to consider, and this is what freaked me out with my cop neighbor, is what is called the "180 degree safety rule" that has been adopted by most shooting venues to ensure range safety. If you don't know what that is you should ask around or attend some shooting matches or competitions. My neighbors "firing line" was about 100 yards away from my house, and my house was in front of his line of fire as per the "180 degree safety rule". Anyway, I did look up the local laws and there is an ordinance on the books called "hazardous use of firearms". Since that "incident" I've got a folder tucked away documenting that situation, and I've added all my research including a copy of the local laws, aerial views of my property and those of surrounding neighbors, red-lined angles of fire, distances that various bullets can travel, and I'm ready if I have another situation like that one. Advise you create a similar folder to document your situation that you can pull out if you have any issues.

In summary, better to do your due diligence up front and play it safe!

 

[Wade]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: quattrodoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1.5 miles? You're safe. </div></div>

This is absolutely wrong.

I know of livestock kills at twice that distance with 175 smk's skipped off flat ground at approximately 100 yards. Bullets struck point first and shot a group smaller than my back yard.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: quattrodoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1.5 miles? You're safe. </div></div>

This is absolutely wrong.

I know of livestock kills at twice that distance with 175 smk's skipped off flat ground at approximately 100 yards. Bullets struck point first and shot a group smaller than my back yard.



</div></div>

I'm having a very hard time believing that. A quick run-thru on JBM finds the following:

Maximum Distance
Input Data
Manufacturer: Sierra Description: HPBT MatchKing™
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 175.0 gr

Muzzle Velocity: 2700.0 ft/s

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.4 ft/s

Initial Angle: 32.5 deg Terminal Angle: 61.3 deg
Terminal Range: 5206.7 yd Terminal Velocity: 473.1 ft/s
Terminal Time: 31.0 s Terminal Energy: 87.0 ft•lbs

It's capable of going 5206 yards (2.95 miles), but only if fired at maximum elevation, and even then it's hitting with 87 foot-pounds...well below that of a .22LR at the muzzle. Even if you had a mirror-smooth surface out to three miles, and just <span style="font-style: italic">barely</span> grazed the ground, I'm having a very hard time believing that the bullet would remain stable that far or at those speeds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ricochets are unpredictable. Anyone who has ever seen full-automatic tracer fire can attest to that.

You can google "DA Pamphlet 385-63, Range Safety" and in chapter 6 find how military Range Control calculates and establishes generic small arms downrange hazard areas.</div></div>

How do you know that you're seeing the entire projectile, and not just the tracing compound being kicked up and out? It's damn near impossible to tell exactly what's going on out there without being able to track and recover bullets. I've never seen anyone do any definitive testing on the actual behavior of ricochets downrange, and it's a subject area full of bullshit from people who "heard the round go RIGHT past their head!"

One local range had numerous "issues" with ricochets - my favorite were the guys roaming around out in the woods who claimed to hear bullets "whizzing past them", when a map check showed they were a solid five miles beyond the backstops. I had one rabid range officer swear to me that bullets were striking target frames, changing direction, going over a berm, and then angling downwards towards people directly on the other side of the berm. He failed to present a viable theory as to how a ballistic projectile could exhibit heat-seeking characteristics to change trajectory in mid-air and come towards him.

 

[sinister]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Well, let's see.

An AC-130 orbiting at 12,500 feet (or 4,166 yards) fires only its three 7.62mm miniguns at a target on the face of the earth. I can attest the bullets are still lethal, and the tracers bouncing off target are not just driving into the earth to have their trace elements get "kicked up and out."

I am guessing you have never fired 5.56, 7.62, or .50-cal tracers at hard ground targets.

 

[SaepeExertus]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

I've seen 175 gr smk strike the back stop after being fired from the 1000 and bounce off the back into the people pulling the targets. They either bounced off the person or bounced off the back of the target. There's always the chance, but with a rear SDZ of 1.5 miles you should be good.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Documented multiple bullet strikes at 1.8 and 2.1 miles after a skip out of a S.O. range. .308 Win with 168 Fed Match. Shooter is hardcore and accounts for every round. Definite skips after passing through 100yd target and doing a light touch off half way to a 300yd berm.

Rounds went over the river and into adjacent farm land. Bullet strikes on livestock and 3 strikes on buildings before they put together that it was coming from that far away.

Shooters had no clue until investigated.

Distance was calculated in meters with GPS using UTM.
I have images of recovered bullets somewhere on my hard drive. Will post later if I can find them.

Didn't believe it until I helped finish some of the clues and details.

 

[fmsniper]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

da pam 385-63 range safety
about 4100 meters
page 172

 

[skinney_7]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Documented multiple bullet strikes at 1.8 and 2.1 miles after a skip out of a S.O. range. .308 Win with 168 Fed Match. Shooter is hardcore and accounts for every round. Definite skips after passing through 100yd target and doing a light touch off half way to a 300yd berm.

Rounds went over the river and into adjacent farm land. Bullet strikes on livestock and 3 strikes on buildings before they put together that it was coming from that far away.

Shooters had no clue until investigated.

Distance was calculated in meters with GPS using UTM.
I have images of recovered bullets somewhere on my hard drive. Will post later if I can find them.

Didn't believe it until I helped finish some of the clues and details. </div></div>
WOW... didn't think a 308 would go that far on a ricochet, i could c 1 mile but 2??? I'll make sure and take that into consideration out here in the middle of nowhere, interesting story, and pics would be great.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, let's see.

An AC-130 orbiting at 12,500 feet (or 4,166 yards) fires only its three 7.62mm miniguns at a target on the face of the earth. I can attest the bullets are still lethal, and the tracers bouncing off target are not just driving into the earth to have their trace elements get "kicked up and out."

I am guessing you have never fired 5.56, 7.62, or .50-cal tracers at hard ground targets.</div></div>

I don't think it's necessary to point out the difference between firing from an <span style="font-weight: bold">altitude</span> of 4,166 yards above the target, and firing <span style="font-weight: bold">at</span> a target 4,166 yards away on level ground.

 

[Arbiter]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Documented multiple bullet strikes at 1.8 and 2.1 miles after a skip out of a S.O. range. .308 Win with 168 Fed Match. Shooter is hardcore and accounts for every round. Definite skips after passing through 100yd target and doing a light touch off half way to a 300yd berm.

Rounds went over the river and into adjacent farm land. Bullet strikes on livestock and 3 strikes on buildings before they put together that it was coming from that far away.

Shooters had no clue until investigated.

Distance was calculated in meters with GPS using UTM.
I have images of recovered bullets somewhere on my hard drive. Will post later if I can find them.

Didn't believe it until I helped finish some of the clues and details.</div></div>

Interesting info. Do you happen to recall whether there was any element of windage being imparted to the ricochets, or were they impacting in a straight line from the shooter to the target to the impact zone?

 

[Wade]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: quattrodoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1.5 miles? You're safe. </div></div>

This is absolutely wrong.

I know of livestock kills at twice that distance with 175 smk's skipped off flat ground at approximately 100 yards. Bullets struck point first and shot a group smaller than my back yard.



</div></div>

I'm having a very hard time believing that. A quick run-thru on JBM finds the following:

Maximum Distance
Input Data
Manufacturer: Sierra Description: HPBT MatchKing™
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 175.0 gr

Muzzle Velocity: 2700.0 ft/s

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Output Data
Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.4 ft/s

Initial Angle: 32.5 deg Terminal Angle: 61.3 deg
Terminal Range: 5206.7 yd Terminal Velocity: 473.1 ft/s
Terminal Time: 31.0 s Terminal Energy: 87.0 ft•lbs

It's capable of going 5206 yards (2.95 miles), but only if fired at maximum elevation, and even then it's hitting with 87 foot-pounds...well below that of a .22LR at the muzzle. Even if you had a mirror-smooth surface out to three miles, and just <span style="font-style: italic">barely</span> grazed the ground, I'm having a very hard time believing that the bullet would remain stable that far or at those speeds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ricochets are unpredictable. Anyone who has ever seen full-automatic tracer fire can attest to that.

You can google "DA Pamphlet 385-63, Range Safety" and in chapter 6 find how military Range Control calculates and establishes generic small arms downrange hazard areas.</div></div>

How do you know that you're seeing the entire projectile, and not just the tracing compound being kicked up and out? It's damn near impossible to tell exactly what's going on out there without being able to track and recover bullets. I've never seen anyone do any definitive testing on the actual behavior of ricochets downrange, and it's a subject area full of bullshit from people who "heard the round go RIGHT past their head!"

One local range had numerous "issues" with ricochets - my favorite were the guys roaming around out in the woods who claimed to hear bullets "whizzing past them", when a map check showed they were a solid five miles beyond the backstops. I had one rabid range officer swear to me that bullets were striking target frames, changing direction, going over a berm, and then angling downwards towards people directly on the other side of the berm. He failed to present a viable theory as to how a ballistic projectile could exhibit heat-seeking characteristics to change trajectory in mid-air and come towards him. </div></div>

My account is from the same shooter that Terry is referring to. At the time I spoke to the shooter I believe actual distance was estimated. One should KNOW, not think before giving a green light on something like this. It is part of the 4th primary firearms safety rule.

 

[bowslngr]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

so 1.8 and 2.1 miles after going 100 yds. The 2.1 case sounds like something very close to 1.5 miles beyond a 1000 yd target.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Don't do it. Shoot directly into a berm or stop. For example; 500yards of range, two stops and box target on field ground @~100yards before 200yrd backstop. Accurate fire. Bullet skip to clear both berms and a additional 8 acres of woods to keyhole in a structure 1.75 miles away.

 

[XTR]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Another thing think of is to be sure you can see if anyone is coming up behind the backstop.

I was out riding my MTB in Washington once and came up over a hill and found myself 100 yds behind a target some yahoos were out zeroing their hunting rifles for deer season. Neither of us owned the property and they had the audacity to be snotty when I pointed out to them that there was a road and a bunch of trails in the mile or so behind the crest of the hill going down to the Columbia River.

They were at about 100 to 200 yds from the targets so pretty much everything to the river was in rang and completely blind to them.

 

[JByrd]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they all go a certain distance. </div></div>

I plugged it into shooter and this is what I got also.

Your on a farm,box it in with old round bales of hay....problem solved

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

You guys can come up with all the angles and factors you want to. But the bottom line is no shot is safe unless you are 100% sure of your backdrop. So a richochet of 10 feet is too far if you do not know the background.

Back stops are the biggest problem I have with a lot of so called wanna be long range shooters. Most have no idea where there bullets are going. And that is 100% unsafe. No back stop or for sure back drop-then no shooting. That is pretty simple. And 100% safe rule. Uunless you want to take a chance?? Do you?? Not me. Tom.

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

This is an interesting thread, though there seems to be no clear consensus on this issue.

My local range is currently "examining" this very same problem, so to speak. Apparently a homeowner some 1.5 miles from the range has claimed that a .308 168 gr SMK has struck his house, and the rumor has it that this occurred as the result of a ricochet from the hill at the back of the range (this hill is around 500-700 yards from the shooting line, depending on the exact location of bullet strike).

Personally, I find it nearly impossible to believe that a .308 bullet struck a dirt hill (not flat ground), then ricocheted with enough energy/remaining BC to travel 1.5 miles, damage a house, and still be recognizable.

In my humble (but not necessarily 100% accurate) opinion, if this bullet did in fact come from the range where I shoot, then I believe it got there as the result of someone putting a shot directly over the berm. Just my guess.

 

[XTR]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coloradocop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is an interesting thread, though there seems to be no clear consensus on this issue.</div></div>

There are people who are willing to take more risks than others and there are extremes on both ends of the scale. Just read this forum and you'll see it from reloading to hunting and everything in between.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coloradocop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Apparently a homeowner some 1.5 miles from the range has claimed that a .308 168 gr SMK has struck his house,...
...In my humble (but not necessarily 100% accurate) opinion, if this bullet did in fact come from the range where I shoot, then I believe it got there as the result of someone putting a shot directly over the berm. Just my guess.</div></div>

When you consider that 168SMKs have a reputation for instability when they go transonic your guess makes perfect sense to me; that said however, if a homeowner ended up with a bullet in his house, by what ever means, you can probably start counting the days till the range is closed.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

I think that is where some of the misconception lies.

Your backstop is only GTG if you are impacting directly into it. It is the first thing (after the paper target) that the bullet should strike.

Our situation was where the bullets were passing through a target board at 100yds and touching off at a very shallow angle somewhere around 150-200 yds. Berm at 320 or so would catch most but some would skip over after touching off half way there.

Recovered bullets were in exceptional shape which tended to back up the fact that their energy was not stripped or dampened very much. Obviously very low velocity impacts on final resting point.

No consensus on this topic is not surprising as this can be very random. The main thing we got from this experience is that ANY shallow angle approach onto a surface will offer very minimal energy and direction loss. (EX: See many of the carbine and pistol classes on urban tactics regarding hugging walls and shooting down walls or streets.....)

If your backstop is far enough behind the first contact point, the possibility for the round to arch over and past it is very real.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

I was running an LE range where a 168smk was fired at a steel spring loaded popper located at 300 yards. The round glanced off the target and traveled 1.2 miles from the target and came to rest after striking a house (owned by a two people who happened to be attorneys). The house was struck on the second floor, penetrated the siding, and came to rest after denting the drywall.

The range was set up so we were shooting from a barn down into a rolling field. At 750 yards away from the target was a very large hill covered in trees. I assumed.... Yup, assumed nothing would make it past the large hill.

View from shooting platform...

Recover bullet...

Drywall where the bullet stopped...

After this incident my rule of thumb is having a heavy back stop no less than 6 feet behind the target and has no less than 6 feet to the right and left of the target and no less than 6 feet above the target's highest point. This rule applies from all shooting positions.

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No consensus on this topic is not surprising as this can be very random. The main thing we got from this experience is that ANY shallow angle approach onto a surface will offer very minimal energy and direction loss. (EX: See many of the carbine and pistol classes on urban tactics regarding hugging walls and shooting down walls or streets.....)

If your backstop is far enough behind the first contact point, the possibility for the round to arch over and past it is very real.

</div></div>

I'm familiar with the concept taught in the classes you mentioned, and I've also seen how easily rounds can skip.

Thing is, in the case of the range where I currently shoot, the hill rises much more dramatically than it does in the one that was pictured just above this post. The range already has substantial berms at 25, 50, 100, 200, and 300 yards, and shooting beyond those distances is usually done by people who are shooting at steel targets sitting on the hill.

I'm not going to go as far as saying that a bullet could not ricochet from this hill, but I do believe that any bullet that did would have lost a substantial amount of energy (and or aerodynamic efficiency). At the very least it just seems improbable to think that such a bullet would hit that hill at, say, 600 yards, and then be able to travel an additional 1.5 miles before running out of energy.

If the bullet was actually a 168 grain SMK, then I'd say we have about 10 to 1 odds that this particular bullet originated from a .308 Win rifle. While the .308 can certainly deposit a bullet more than 1.5 miles away from the shooter, it just seems hard to believe that it did so <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> the bullet struck another object, especially since that object would have likely deflected the bullet at a pretty substantial angle.

Again, I could be wrong on this one, but I find it more likely to believe that the bullet left the range as the result of someone shooting over the hill, rather than hitting it and bouncing the bullet to its destination. For what it's worth, it sounds like this is the second claim that has been made against our range this year, and I believe they both involve this same home.

Though I don't run this range, I'm personally concerned with finding the answer to this question. More substantial berms are currently in the works for the 400-600 yard distances at the range, but those berms won't help if this (these) incident(s) occurred because someone sent a round over the hill. It is so very easy to get shooting ranges shut down these days, and I'd hate to see this one go if the problem is really being caused by an irresponsible shooter (as opposed to an unexpected ricochet). Like many places, this range has had its share of nighttime vandalism, which could also be an explanation for the errant round that has left the facility.

 

[Dirtdigger]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Well after all the thoughts and good ideas I do believe i need a back stop even if i have 1.5 miles.

The hay bale is a good idea (corn stalk bales for me). Also the hill is quite steep and will be plowed so it will be very loose.

Our biggest problem will be that none of the guys shooting have shot this far before and we will all be finding our dope so i'm sure we will be coming up short and working our way in.

Never knew this would become such a hot topic...

 

[bm11]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

What about a tree line directly behind the target? The area I shoot long at has a thick line of tall (75 feet or so) trees insulating the shooting position a mile from the next house. I understand the risk involved if someone was walking in the woods behind the house, but that aside, I can't see the bullet weaving in and out of the trees to make it to an area they could cause damage. Likewise, with the target set up 50 feet from the tree line, I can't see the bullet being deflected at a high enough angle to clear the trees and still being able to come down and do some damage.

Would we all agree that this is reasonable? I live in Maine, so there are trees insulating everybody from everything here.

 

[Rommel]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

I work as a Range Safety Inspector, Marine Corps Base 29 Palms California. It all depends on the caliber. A manual called the DA-PAM will give you the surface danger zone (SDZ) for calibers from .22 to 30mm. Distance X on an SDZ is the maximum distance that particular round will travel before it falls to earth. It will also give you the vertical hazard. What is the largest caliber you plan on firing?

 

[deersniper]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

Completely aside from the statement above, I see little value to practice and/or training with a centerfire. Their level of energy is essentially unrelated to the goals and benefits of training. A .22LR can do the same thing with less cost, or the need for extensive impact overrun distances. Any actual shooting with the centerfire may be best confined to the rifle's primary purpose, as well as load performance confirmation and zero data acquisition. Anything beyond these activities expends bore life and ammunition costs unnecessarily, and leads to questions like the one we began with here.

Greg

Recoil management is impossible to practice with a rim fire. As well as learning the long range effects on your cartridge from wind and weather extremes.

In the process of designing a berm myself. I have 1000-1400 yards with a 50-80' hill behind. The berm is easy.
The richochets that would come from a low miss and the bullet skipping is where my worry comes in

 

[deersniper]

Re: How far will a ricochet go?

I think that is where some of the misconception lies.

Your backstop is only GTG if you are impacting directly into it. It is the first thing (after the paper target) that the bullet should strike.

Our situation was where the bullets were passing through a target board at 100yds and touching off at a very shallow angle somewhere around 150-200 yds. Berm at 320 or so would catch most but some would skip over after touching off half way there.

Recovered bullets were in exceptional shape which tended to back up the fact that their energy was not stripped or dampened very much. Obviously very low velocity impacts on final resting point.

No consensus on this topic is not surprising as this can be very random. The main thing we got from this experience is that ANY shallow angle approach onto a surface will offer very minimal energy and direction loss. (EX: See many of the carbine and pistol classes on urban tactics regarding hugging walls and shooting down walls or streets.....)

If your backstop is far enough behind the first contact point, the possibility for the round to arch over and past it is very real.

Good solid info

Don't care if this thread has been dead, it should be stickied. SH has a lot of members that shoot on private property and the more that see this the better.

 

[perttime]

Yep.
Have a backstop.
Make it large enough to hit with certainty.
Make it roughly perpendicular to the bullet's track.

 

[MK20]

See if you can source some railroad ties locally. They are normally cheap, especially the more beat up ones. they are 6 or 7 feet long and about 10'' high. Just buy about 25 of them and stack them in a wall behind your target. Easy, cheap, and moveable if you ever relocate your range.

caltopo.com
mappingsupport.com

These are your friends for finding a local spot to shoot. Keep an eye out for abandoned airfields. those can often be of great value as long as the owner is cool with it.