Suppressors how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

[smokshwn]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a difference? You bet your ass there is! I don't get paid to run towards a wall of bullets anymore. I CCW so that I can defend myself and get the hell out of there.</div></div>

Just like George Kastanza when the smoke alarm goes off.....very warriorlike of you

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you don't think that there's a remarkable difference between CCW and police tactics, I just pray that you're never put in a situation.

You might not think they're different, but a jury definitely will. </div></div>

Wow, just wow....DK was right on the money....trainwreck.

Where and what exactly do you base this nugget of "factual" information on?

 

[smokshwn]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the stopping power % difference between good 9mm ammo, good 40 ammo, good 45 ammo is around 1 to 5% ie. the one shot stopping data collected by evan marshall.

9 is ~91%
40 is ~94%
45 is 96%
10mm and 357sig are in that area too.

That's just one shot to the chest. So out of 100 incidents 91 times out of 100 9mm is going to stop with one shot and 96 times out of 100 with 45. Are you going to shoot them one time only and take the risk? You can if you want but I'm not goin to.

Now figure in the fact that your likely going to miss etc.

Figure in the fact that you'll be under stress etc etc.

Give me something I can shoot well in any situation and has a lot of bullets. </div></div>

Exactly....also keep in mind it has been found to be fact, that 92.73% of all gunfight outcomes don't give a flying fuck what Evan Marshall thinks

 

[ewoaf]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

....also keep in mind it has been found to be fact, that 92.73% of all gunfight outcomes don't give a flying fuck what Evan Marshall thinks

</div></div>

Besides this statistic (100% true), can anyone explain to me why it is that the "experts" have their own conflicting statistics and factual basis for their own teachings? I could probably google up all kinds of statistics from instructors, writers or experts that all say different things......don't make me.

 

[300WSM]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

lets say his %'s are incorrect. IMO it's likely that if they are incorrect they are all off to the same degree. Which makes them still useful.

For all the size badnits out there ie. the big 45.

isn't it interesting that the big 44mag on avg expanded to .81" while the 45acp expanded to .76" yet the 45 was 96% whiles the 44mag was only 92%.

and what is even more interesting is if you look at the 357mag stats he has. Both 125gr loads from remington and federal are 96% yet the remington only on avg expanded to .58" and the federal on avg .74". One might argue well the .58" data set didn't have many shots but a closer look reveals that the remington .58" group had 431 shootings and the federal had 641 shootings. yet they are both 96%. Even if the remington data was off by say 5% it still makes a real argument against the size bandits.

But go a step further - take the 357mag stats again which are 96% for the 125gr bullets from remington and federal.

Now look at the 38+p special which uses the same damn bullet but going a lot slower. the remington 125 is 76% with .66" which is on avg .08" larger then the 357mag remington haha. And the federal 125 is 72% at .6 which is obviously .14" smaller then the 357mag federal 125gr.

regardless of the EXACT validity of the above stats. I think it is obvious one can still make some very sound judgements based on them...again regardless of their EXACT validity.

 

[300WSM]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=8&Weight=All

link to the stopping power data.

 

[ewoaf]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

OMFG, a 9mm vs. .45 arfcom thread met the .25 MOA rifle thread and they had a friggin baby together which grew up to be this thread.

 

[300WSM]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

so with that said. again I would say this:

it's likely under stress I'm going to miss. It's likely that I am going to make some awkard position shots. It's not the range where you get to walk up to the line get a good two handed grip and nice stance and aim at the target. So imo recoil plays a large role.

so give me something that I can shoot well in any situation or position and that has a lot of bullets and decent stopping power.

 

[300WSM]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

in other words if you can shoot 10mm one handed weak side with ease in an awkward position ...then go for it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

EOw;

We agree, and I understand your concern about liabilities.

When it comes down to liabilities, I plan not to be one. Everyone else is on their own.

Push comes to shove, I plan to be around when the smoke clears. We don't plan outcomes, we plan to be around to see what they are.

The best we can do is still not something I'd bet the farm on. Best I can do is try. When I got in trouble, I was not making the bet. I was just trying to see what happens next.

I have no idea what the right thing is, I just know I did my best.

Worked. Coulda been wrong about that, but...

Apparently...

Greg

PS:

Don't ask me what to do. I don't know that answer. I do know that the parts about me that I'll never understand still seem to work.

So far...

 

[jmcneil]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

On duty I carry a Glock 22 w/ three mags. Off duty I carry a 1911 with three mags. I prefer the .45acp when given the choice, and a 1911 and mags conceal easier too. Regardless of "statistics" which cite percentages of one shot stops, engagement distances, # of rounds fired, etc, I've never known anyone to regret or be penalized for surviving a gunfight with ammo left over. I carry what's comfortable, and what should be <span style="font-style: italic">enough</span> (both gun and ammo) for whatever scenario I may fall into.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I hope I'm not coming across as macho or bloodthirsty or as massaging the facts. I'm no warrior.

There was a time when doing warrior things was part of the job description, and it took <span style="font-style: italic">something</span> to go out into Indian Country and troll for engagements.

Until one finds oneself in that first one, it's all a melange of sketchy expectations, wild imaginings, generic training, and a bit of a youthful sense of immortality.

Until it finally goes down, when it actually sinks in that people are deliberately trying to kill you and that they might actually succeed, mortality is an abstract concept. Standing over warm dead bodies and seeing the effects of your and others' handiwork, brutally unforgiving, absolutely pragmatic reality sinks in; doing it in a way that nothing else can make it do so. Mortality suddenly, finally has a specific relevance to your own existence.

It is only then, that going out into the bush again is an actual act of courage. Being scared is fine, you finally understand why being scared has a true basis. You don't want to do it, not if you have even a shred of intelligence. You still do it because you can't look your peers in the eye if you even intimate you'd really want to go home now. And then there's the brig, too.

Only the sickos craved a repeat performance. We all finally understood that anything that went before failed miserably to truly prepare one for the process. Inevitably, that failure translates into lives lost. Nothing succeeds like success, and nothing can explain to a 'virgin' what it's like to be there.

Guys understood that like the fighter pilot saying (accurately) that speed is life, and in the case of the ground pounder, we would go to remarkable lengths to augment our basic loadout. Mostly it amounted to a couple or three more loaded mags stuffed inside a utility blouse. The new motivation to stack your deck could be neither ignored nor can it be overestimated.

Frankenmags (not many, they were genuine abortions) made up of 20 rounder M-14 mags tack welded in line. Some guys carried AK's and SK's because the ammo took up less room, and they could carry more of it. They replenished off their kills. Same with Chicom 9mm handguns and 'combat scrounged' ammo. I managed to procure a black market Thompson M1A1 with the fanny pack holding a passel of 20rd stick mags. Heavy, but it went into the bush with me when I could get an 'amen'.

Despite my references to it, I don't favor 'spray and pray' either. It's contrary to the instilled dictum of accurate fire. When we were instructed in Squad Tactics at ITR, using directed massed fire as supporting fire for fire and maneuver tactics, one of the deliberate intents of our own massed fire against oncoming troop masses was to shoot short, kicking up dirt and splashing ricochets upward into the oncoming formation. By making the fire visibly perceptible to the enemy, the idea was to increase the mental perception of fire incoming on them.

This was actually another manifestation of the fallacy of teaching tactics developed after the fact to win the last war. Our enemy seldom committed to a massed assault, and seldom ever fired from anything but extensive concealment.

I would not characterize this as truly 'spray and pray', but rather as fire suppression. It might have some degree of duplication with a single or few shooters doing actual spray and pray', and in a manner that would likely not be as effective, for example, from a suppressed firearm firing over their heads.

Greg

 

[1911gunner]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

It amazes me that tactics and statistics have become a viable excuse for pure laziness. I own a gunshop and while this in no way makes me any kind of an expert it does give me the chance to talk to people everyday about their reasons and methods for how they carry their personal defense firearms. I am shocked by the number of people that carry a gun believing they may need to use it some day yet then believe that everything will start going right for them instantly and they will only need one or two rounds to save themselves. If everything goes to shit and I have to use my gun what makes me think my luck is going to change and things will start going right? Tell yourself what ever you want to make it easier to justify your decision, I don't see any way having more ammo then I need could ever be a bad thing.

 

[trobertson5-0]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

I would prefer to dump my extra rounds on the dresser at night after not having to use them over needing to use them when they are on my dresser.

I am a Police Officer,have been a Soldier in combat,and a long time ago was just average Joe with a CCW. Are they different? Yes. Are they different once the shooting starts? No.

All other things being equal a guy with 45 rounds available will kill a guy with 5 or 8 rounds available. I want to be the guy with 45 rounds. TJR

 

[fasteddie565]

Re: how important is capacity in a handgun to you?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: weaver126</div><div class="ubbcode-body">t i saw this thread over on ar15.com today and.... </div></div>

Why drag the pointless debate over here? Isn't there enough BS threads like this one on BARF.com to keep you busy? </div></div>

While I admit that some threads here are repetitive and offer limited information, I think the folks here have made some excellent points. Shot placement, ammunition selection are all valid concerns. I, like many of you here carry a small .45 ACP (G 36) and a S&W 5 shot J frame BUG. While training is the far more important factor in winning a gun fight, I think, IMHO the advise here in the first part of the thread is sound.

Unfortunately, we always seem to have to get into the dick measuring about 9mm vs 45 and which is a better "manstopper" etc etc. I would say unless you have shot and killed or shot and not killed dozens of people with each caliber (Which I have not), then you really do not know what the fuck you are talking about and your opinion is best kept to yourself or at least qualified based upon your experience and not what you read on the Internet.

I would like to throw this into the mix that the mere presentation of a CCW often prevents a fight. I was faced with this yet again last night on the Northshore of New Orleans. Situational awareness and training are a far better combo than just your favorite handgun and a holster someone on the Internet told you to buy. If carrying a CCW has not changed the way you act in public, carry yourself, your sense of awareness and understanding of your surroundings, how you drive etc, you need more training.

In summary and my humble opinion:

Shot placement is key
High Capacity is OK if it fits your situation but is not mandatory
Always carry a reload, especially if you carry an auto.
Well placed shots kill more people than poorly placed shots, regardless of the caliber
Shoot a bonded bullet, regardless of the caliber and shape

fast eddie sends