How Important is it to Match a Bolt with a Barrel?

[Lumpen]

Older posts on the board say that White Oak will match the bolt with barrel, but I don't see that on their site. So I looked at WO's complete upper receiver Service Rifle (just an upper) at $740. Service Barrel inside it separately costs $225. I don't understand the high cost. It's true that I want to do things such as add my own trigger, but for $750 I can get a complete Colt Competition rifle. This way I could buy any WO barrel I want, such as an 18 inch.

It's possible I missed the section where they match the barrel with the bolt, and I will call them to verify as I get closer to a purchase, but if a Colt, RR, Stag Arms, etc. bolt would work as well with the WO, it's tempting to go that route. Thanks for any ideas.

 

[KUSA]

I expect they just verify the proper head space.

 

[BCP]

You could call them and ask but it's probably just a headspace check.

If you aren't shooting service rifle then there's not much point in buying their purpose-built service rifle upper. Last white oak barrel I got was a 18" rifle gas with a bolt I think it was 309. Shoots great.

 

[wareagle700]

With quality bolts and barrels, not very important. All my AR's headspace within .0015" of each other, none of the barrels came with matched bolts. That's not to say I wouldn't buy a new headspaced bolt with a new barrel though.

 

[bp7178]

I like how the first two posters that felt the need to reply aren't at all familiar with why someone would match a bolt for a precision AR.

There is cartridge headspace, and chamber headspace. The matching is to chamber headspace.

Its much more than a headspace check. The headspace range for an AR is pretty big. Matching seeks to set it at the lower end of the range. This means your brass doesn't have to expand as much during firing to seal tightly to the chamber. You'll notice your brass will have less soot on it after ejection from the neck down. This leads to more consistency and with factory ammo, which are typically on the low end of cartridge headspace to ensure reliable feeding in a variety of platforms, will be more accurate and consistent.

If you are shoulder bumping your brass during reloading, you won't notice much of a difference, as this enable you to match your cartridge headspace to your chamber headspace. If you shoot a wide variety of factory ammo, or reload by smashing brass down with a FL die and don't reload for a specific rifle, you're better off to get it matched.

 

[Lumpen]

Thanks. All of the comments were very helpful. So much to figure out. Such as if you bought the WO barrel and bolt, which should be chambered for Wylde 223, but the host rifle is 556. Would you be able to put them into the existing bolt carrier assembly or would you buy a new one from WO, and then it would work? Oh well, more research to do for sure.

 

[Flat Tire]

To understand it easier do a search at YouTube for installing a barrel in a savage bolt action and see how they use a "go" and "no-go" gauge. Then think about the AR platform.

 

[bp7178]

Thanks. All of the comments were very helpful. So much to figure out. Such as if you bought the WO barrel and bolt, which should be chambered for Wylde 223, but the host rifle is 556. Would you be able to put them into the existing bolt carrier assembly or would you buy a new one from WO, and then it would work? Oh well, more research to do for sure.

The Wylde 223 chamber is capable of firing 556 safely. Essentially 223 and 556 is the same dimensionally as far as the cartridges go. The 556 chamber is slightly different to safely fire the higher pressure 556 cartridge.

Go and no-go gauges don't apply when you are talking about matching bolts. If you wanted to match a bolt, you would use a headspace gauge in the exact size headspace you are trying to set, example 1.4646" (range is 1.4636" to 1.4736"). Then you start trying bolts.

 

[Lumpen]

To understand it easier do a search at YouTube for installing a barrel in a savage bolt action and see how they use a "go" and "no-go" gauge. Then think about the AR platform.

Thanks. I actually watched one a couple of hours ago but for an AR. I guess now I'm getting interested in the Wylde chamber, which seems more accurate and it's now how to fit an AR together. I guess if I would go with a 556 I wouldn't have this new problem, and if I didn't care if I matched a WO bolt with the WO barrel. So, yeah, I need some U Tube time, but probably 101 on how to assemble an AR. Something I was hoping to avoid by getting a complete upper.

 

[Lumpen]

The Wylde 223 chamber is capable of firing 556 safely. Essentially 223 and 556 is the same dimensionally as far as the cartridges go. The 556 chamber is slightly different to safely fire the higher pressure 556 cartridge.

Go and no-go gauges don't apply when you are talking about matching bolts. If you wanted to match a bolt, you would use a headspace gauge in the exact size headspace you are trying to set, example 1.4646" (range is 1.4636" to 1.4736"). Then you start trying bolts.

Sounds past my pay grade. Maybe it's back to looking at more WO parts that already fit.

 

[Flat Tire]

Thanks. I actually watched one a couple of hours ago but for an AR. I guess now I'm getting interested in the Wylde chamber, which seems more accurate and it's now how to fit an AR together. I guess if I would go with a 556 I wouldn't have this new problem, and if I didn't care if I matched a WO bolt with the WO barrel. So, yeah, I need some U Tube time, but probably 101 on how to assemble an AR. Something I was hoping to avoid by getting a complete upper.

They are pretty simple to assemble. If you have some mechanical skills just jump in. I think it is why they are so popular. You will start assembling one and end up with five. LOL

 

[bp7178]

Its not really feasible for the home gunsmith to try to match a bolt. It requires a batch of bolts. If you are getting a fitted bolt, you would get that from whoever turned the barrel.

What the at home gunsmith does for headspace is just to check it with a go/no-go gauge to make sure the parts they selected fall somewhere in the acceptable headspace range. The professional shop fits them to pick exactly where they land in the acceptable range, typically on the low end.

It doesn't sound like you have a good working knowledge of the platform yet. For basic assembly its very easy, but as with all things there are advanced techniques that will yield incrementally better results. There is some good basic info out there. The military armor's manuals are out on the net and are a good source.

 

[Lumpen]

Its not really feasible for the home gunsmith to try to match a bolt. It requires a batch of bolts. If you are getting a fitted bolt, you would get that from whoever turned the barrel.

What the at home gunsmith does for headspace is just to check it with a go/no-go gauge to make sure the parts they selected fall somewhere in the acceptable headspace range. The professional shop fits them to pick exactly where they land in the acceptable range, typically on the low end.

It doesn't sound like you have a good working knowledge of the platform yet. For basic assembly its very easy, but as with all things there are advanced techniques that will yield incrementally better results. There is some good basic info out there. The military armor's manuals are out on the net and are a good source.

What if all I do is replace the barrel then? I can check it myself it looks tight, but if it's not tight, what does that mean? Does it mean that the parts just aren't made for each other, or is it something that I could fix, or would it have to go off to a gunsmith? I saw a nice rifle in Wylde 223 for under $1,000. It would be nice to get something like that and then just change the barrel.
[MENTION=99898]Flat Tire[/MENTION]. I already wish I had a big pile of parts that I could play with like Legos or Minecraft.

 

[bp7178]

What exactly are you trying to do?

 

[Lumpen]

What exactly are you trying to do?

I want a very accurate AR. A squad designated marksman type of rifle with a flash hider, etc. Since I haven't assembled an AR before, I'm trying to do something within my ability.

I have been interested in putting a White Oak barrel on a rifle and a good trigger. One option is to start from scratch, but since I haven't done it before, that's not my first choice. Where I am now is looking at buying a completed rifle and putting them on after that. This is why I am trying to learn how to get a barrel on a rifle that fits well (head space, etc.). Thanks.

 

[BCP]

I want a very accurate AR. A squad designated marksman type of rifle with a flash hider, etc. Since I haven't assembled an AR before, I'm trying to do something within my ability.

I have been interested in putting a White Oak barrel on a rifle and a good trigger. One option is to start from scratch, but since I haven't done it before, that's not my first choice. Where I am now is looking at buying a completed rifle and putting them on after that. This is why I am trying to learn how to get a barrel on a rifle that fits well (head space, etc.). Thanks.

You could build something like that for probably 1200 bucks, possibly a grand depending on what parts you use. It's not particularly difficult but there are some special tools that you'll need. Roll pin punches and an action block for example.

White oak is a good choice for barrels, a douglas from compass lake would be another. Criterion also makes AR barrels in that price range but I've never had as good of luck with them as with white oak.

As far as matched bolts go my experience has been like what Wareagle posted. If I get a matched bolt it's for the convenience of it and not because I'm worried that the 3-4 bolts I have laying around will not headspace satisfactorily. Also I've never had a new 'match' barrel from any reputable company that didn't headspace fairly tight with any of my bolts.

 

[bp7178]

I want a very accurate AR. A squad designated marksman type of rifle with a flash hider, etc. Since I haven't assembled an AR before, I'm trying to do something within my ability.

I have been interested in putting a White Oak barrel on a rifle and a good trigger. One option is to start from scratch, but since I haven't done it before, that's not my first choice. Where I am now is looking at buying a completed rifle and putting them on after that. This is why I am trying to learn how to get a barrel on a rifle that fits well (head space, etc.). Thanks.

Why would you buy a complete rifle then replace the barrel for the sole purpose of having a WOA barrel in it? You can get a complete upper from Compass Lake with exactly what you're looking for without the necessity of pulling a new barrel and replacing it.

 

[Lumpen]

Why would you buy a complete rifle then replace the barrel for the sole purpose of having a WOA barrel in it? You can get a complete upper from Compass Lake with exactly what you're looking for without the necessity of pulling a new barrel and replacing it.

Because my knowledge in the area is limited so that I have only heard a little about Compass Lake, whereas I 've heard lots about WO. And the WO completed uppers cost as much as a finished rifle. $740/$685 for the two pre-bans available. If I can buy a Colt or other name brand finished for the same price as an upper, it might not even cost more overall and I could be shooting it while I improve it.

A lower cost upper as you mention is definitely appealing. I'll check it out. Thanks and BCP too for the help.

Edit:

Here's a Colt Competition Rifle for $9 more than the WO upper. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/GUN-1516
A better priced finished upper would definitely appeal to me.

 

[BCP]

That colt comp rifle has a shit trigger and stock though. Upgrading to a gieselle and a magpul stock would run you 350 so then you'd be into it 1100. Then if you wanted a white oak barrel that'd be 250 or so plus maybe a different gas block and tube if the gas port length is different (IE, you get a 20" barrel with a rifle gas system).

Here's a price breakdown for a hypothetical build

Aero precision upper w/their 12" quad rail = 250 on sale (monolithic style upper)
Aero precision blemished lower 55$ (have bought a dozen and never a problem)
White Oak 18" barrel or Douglas 18" from Compass Lake = 300$ ballpark
'Matched' bolt from either company = 50-60$
Giessele 2 stage = 220$
Misc lower parts kit = 50$
A2 stock assembly = 100$
DPMS bolt carrier group = 110$ (swap matched bolt and keep DPMS bolt for spare)
Gas block and tube = 65$
A2 flash hider = 15$

I'm not saying to buy all these parts just for the sake of argument what it will potentially cost you.

Alternatively someone like compass lake could assemble you an upper with a decent barrel for say 800-850. Then you'd just have to find yourself a lower half.

 

[Assault116]

For informational purposes, spend some time here and watch the videos, it's a pretty good source on the mechanics of building a rifle.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/learn/

That said, depending on your budget, you might be better off just buying a quality rifle, or upper. Building out a rifle is easy, but getting a very accurate package isn't so easy, a lot of it depends on luck in the parts you buy / mix and match. I spent about $1400 on parts and built a rifle that's quite accurate (.75-1 moa depending on the ammo), but it's not in the class of say an off the shelf JP. Just depends on the budget and expectations.

 

[JimBianchi]

I want a very accurate AR. A squad designated marksman type of rifle with a flash hider, etc. Since I haven't assembled an AR before, I'm trying to do something within my ability.

I have been interested in putting a White Oak barrel on a rifle and a good trigger. One option is to start from scratch, but since I haven't done it before, that's not my first choice. Where I am now is looking at buying a completed rifle and putting them on after that. This is why I am trying to learn how to get a barrel on a rifle that fits well (head space, etc.). Thanks.

I just bought a slightly used Rainer Arm UltraMatch 20in 1 in 8 Wylde SDM profile complete upper. Put it on my PRS/AERO lower with a timny trigger. Shot a .44 group at 100m while testing factory match ammo. Best AR group I ever shot. I have four bolts on hand from various manufactures and the BCM bolts worked best. Two I have are not matched anything, just bolts. Works for me so far. When I start to reload I expect even more.

Upper was $600. Lower was about $350. Only bought new was the Timney #3. (Which is a great trigger on a budget). Scope and mount another $605. (Demo vortex HS 6-24x50 with vortex mount)

I built a little more than half myself. Learned a ton and am curious what it can really do with roll my own ammo.

 

[k7714]

Why would you buy a complete rifle then replace the barrel for the sole purpose of having a WOA barrel in it? You can get a complete upper from Compass Lake with exactly what you're looking for without the necessity of pulling a new barrel and replacing it.

+1000

I have put together a handful of AR's. For the Price and Quality you cannot beat a Compass Lake Assembled upper. I would highly recommend you call them, talk with Bunny for a couple minutes and have them assemble an upper for you. Its as simple as sending them the Rail you want , Flashider ETC. They have a supply of recievers, BCG's, Barrels at fair prices, they assemble and do their "magic" and ship it back within days. They know what they are doing and having been doing it for years. Look into it before you waste money elsewhere.

. Only bought new was the Timney #3. (Which is a great trigger on a budget). .

+1 Doesn't get much easier to install and cleaner break than the Timney Drop in


Kevin

 

[Lumpen]

+1000

I have put together a handful of AR's. For the Price and Quality you cannot beat a Compass Lake Assembled upper. I would highly recommend you call them, talk with Bunny for a couple minutes and have them assemble an upper for you. Its as simple as sending them the Rail you want , Flashider ETC. They have a supply of recievers, BCG's, Barrels at fair prices, they assemble and do their "magic" and ship it back within days. They know what they are doing and having been doing it for years. Look into it before you waste money elsewhere.





+1 Doesn't get much easier to install and cleaner break than the Timney Drop in


Kevin

Ok, I'll have to talk to Compass Lake then. Being inexperienced, I'd like to start with a completed upper. WO only offers a service rifle upper, but I'd like to have cooler parts than that. It does seem that the prices of AR's has gone down considerably while places like WO still have high demand. Getting just what you want (by building) is obviously a better choice if the price is right. Thanks BCP for the breakdown too. I put it into my Excel sheet.

 

[BCP]

Bravocompany is having a sale right now all their uppers come with a bravocompany bolt carrier group. You can get one of their 20" gov't profile barrels with their 13" keymod rail for I think 650$ or their 18" stainless for 730 look like. So just add a charging handle (figure 25$) and then go find a lower receiver and you have your 'DMR' rifle.

 

[wareagle700]

I like how the first two posters that felt the need to reply aren't at all familiar with why someone would match a bolt for a precision AR.

There is cartridge headspace, and chamber headspace. The matching is to chamber headspace.

Its much more than a headspace check. The headspace range for an AR is pretty big. Matching seeks to set it at the lower end of the range.

How tight are these headspaced err....... I mean "matched" bolts? Too tight and you may end up with problems. None that I have seen (Noveske and WOA) are any tighter than a milspec bolt dropped in a quality barrel.
The headspace range I have experienced in probably 8-10 barrels has actually been surprisingly small. I'd say within .002" which is with mostly mixed and matched bolts/barrels.

 

[splean]

Most gunsmiths these days are capable of putting together AR-15s. You can buy a variety of quality components and have a gunsmith put together a nice rifle for you. The platform is so popular every part has at least one aftermarket version. Having said that...there are some good complete uppers that are ready to go. Also price isn't always a function of accuracy. I have a custom upper with a VLTOR receiver and WOA DMR 20" that is a tack driver. I also have a Model 1 Sales (cheap) 20" upper that shoots very well with 69gr SMK handloads. Do your research and ask away. There is a lot to learn and consider. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Fatorangecat]

I was in your position not long ago. There are a lot of guys here that are so knowledgeable about ARs they forget what it was like to be unfamiliar with it. You can go about this in a couple ways.

I bought a Colt 6920 to familiarize myself with the platform and like many guys here suggested I am going to end up building a precision upper. Buy a Colt so you know your starting with a quality rifle and build an upper once you figure out how the system works. You can sell the Colt upper to get some of your money back on the upper build and be shooting the whole time.

There is also nothing wrong with putting a match barrel, bolt, adjustable gas block and trigger on a Colt. It would be a very reliable accurate weapon but not as economical as building an upper.

 

[Lumpen]

I was in your position not long ago. There are a lot of guys here that are so knowledgeable about ARs they forget what it was like to be unfamiliar with it. You can go about this in a couple ways.

I bought a Colt 6920 to familiarize myself with the platform and like many guys here suggested I am going to end up building a precision upper. Buy a Colt so you know your starting with a quality rifle and build an upper once you figure out how the system works. You can sell the Colt upper to get some of your money back on the upper build and be shooting the whole time.

There is also nothing wrong with putting a match barrel, bolt, adjustable gas block and trigger on a Colt. It would be a very reliable accurate weapon but not as economical as building an upper.

Those are about my thoughts. I realized how little I knew yesterday when I discovered that if you buy a barrel of a different length that you have to get a matching gas tube (whatever it's called) too. Complexities too are the fact that you're going to lose your tumble after 2700 fps or 100-150 yards anyway. Maybe I should live with a quality 16 inch barrel and use faster, lighter bullets with good quality that can still shoot accurately farther out but maybe out to 400 yards instead of 600. (Maybe a cold forged BCM?) I have been bouncing around BCP's numbers on a build and still don't see a significant cost savings for building my own (not even including tools and screw ups). For me, I would probably spend more on some parts and not bargain blems since it would be my first build, such as getting maybe a RR or Stag receiver and then pay $30 to my local FFL to get it in the mail. Maybe $140 total.

So much to learn. Might be good to slow it down and keep my knowledge up with my wallet and machining skills.

 

[Cobracutter]

Lots of innaccuracies in your last post, but you look new so no sweat.

Buy a Colt 6920/6720. Find a local appleseed and go learn to shoot. After you can outshoot the mechanical limitations of the rifle, move you will have a better idea what to build. A 20" BCM/Colt A2 or A4 would also be a very good starting point. Much more forgiving than the M4 type guns.


Still buys a Colt 6920/6720. Learn to shoot on the A2/A4 and move onto the m4. They have never been this cheap and is closer to what most shooters end up with. So get one (or 5) now while they are at all time lows.

Colt AR-15A4 Lightweight LE Carbine, 5.56 NATO, 16" Pencil Barrel AR6720
BCM 20 A4 Rifle MOD 1 (OUT OF STOCK) at G and R Tactical
Colt AR15A4 20 Rifle at G and R Tactical

 

[supercorndogs]

Complexities too are the fact that you're going to lose your tumble after 2700 fps or 100-150 yards anyway. no they do not tumble out of the barrel.

light bullets are fine for 600. it is past that point where some 223 loads with light bullets go subsonic and tumble.

i agree with cobracutter any of the choices will be fine.

 

[Lumpen]

Lots of innaccuracies in your last post, but you look new so no sweat.

Buy a Colt 6920/6720. Find a local appleseed and go learn to shoot. After you can outshoot the mechanical limitations of the rifle, move you will have a better idea what to build. A 20" BCM/Colt A2 or A4 would also be a very good starting point. Much more forgiving than the M4 type guns.


Still buys a Colt 6920/6720. Learn to shoot on the A2/A4 and move onto the m4. They have never been this cheap and is closer to what most shooters end up with. So get one (or 5) now while they are at all time lows.

Colt AR-15A4 Lightweight LE Carbine, 5.56 NATO, 16" Pencil Barrel AR6720
BCM 20 A4 Rifle MOD 1 (OUT OF STOCK) at G and R Tactical
Colt AR15A4 20 Rifle at G and R Tactical

Would Colt be better than Rock River? I really like how RR's are advertised to shoot 1 MOA. That appeals to me, then I could work on on a scope and work backwards trying to get sub-moa. Of course a new trigger, then a barrel, etc. The replaced RR parts could then be for the project of my build from scratch.

Didn't mean to get off track on my tumble comment. I meant that they yawed and fragmented after hitting flesh at and above 2700 fps. I know they don't tumble through the air. Didn't mean to start a controversy. I'm not new to rifle shooting but, yes, you all know way more than me and I greatly appreciate the advice.

 

[Thebelly]

I've assembled a few ARs and I've bought a couple factory builds.

For the first gun, buy a QUALITY gun. Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, all make very good kit. Once you figure out what you do like and don't like, then maybe it could be time to get that next one that fulfills that next burning itch, such as a dedicated precision piece.

so, yeah, basically echo what others have said.

 

[Cobracutter]

Yes Colt is light years better quality than RRA. RRA's can be accuracte but their componets leave much to be desired. If someone gave me one, I would sell it and buy a quality gun. BCM also makes a good gun.

Don't worry about fragmentation or any of that other shit that 99.99% shooters dont even understand themselves. It's irrelevent for your purposes. You need to focus on training and becoming a competent shooter.

If I was starting someone from scratch, I would go with the 20" rifle with Iron Sights. Build their confidence and ability up to the point that they can transition to other areas.

Shooting is like building a house. If you start with a strong foundation you can do anything. Master the basics and will be ahead of most shooters.

Once you can learn to shoot with a Gov 1/7 Chrome lined 20" barrel with Iron sights, Stock trigger, Military spec Ammo you will have a much greater understanding of what you want and what your capabilities are. It will also be the cheapest way to go and you will probally end up with a whole bunch of guns in the long run. Its a good time!

 

[cal50]

light bullets are fine for 600. it is past that point where some 223 loads with light bullets go subsonic and tumble.

If you have the twist rate to stabilize heavier bullets you are handicapping yourself if you are using light bullets at 600 & beyond.

The wind drift values are huge for lighter bullets Vs a heavier one with a decent ballistics coefficient.

 

[supercorndogs]

you are wasting money if you are plinking away 77 smks at the 50y line. out to 600 "mid range" 55g will work fine. if you shoot comps you are handicapping yourself. if you are looking for accuracy over durability. i would say the rra. a casual shooter will not wear it out. if you are going to do carbine courses and want a battle rifle i would get the colt. you may get a colt that shoots as good as the rra. i have built several uppers with rra 20" 1 in 8 barrels that shot great. i built 1 with a yhm chrome lined 20" 1 in 7 and it would blow up varmint bullets. fine barrel for a battle rifle crappy barrel for a varmint rifle. you need to make up your mind what you want the rifle to be first.

 

[Cobracutter]

"Fine" is a floating term. One that could mean lots of things.

To say that 55gr or other light .223 rounds perform similar to 69/75/77gr HPBT's at range is not even a debate.

Run them in a ballistic calculator if you need proof (since anyone claiming such has never shot at range)

 

[Lumpen]

Ok, so I went for the Colt 6720. I will then probably add a White Oak barrel and a new trigger, with much joyful shooting as I go. $800 is just too darn cheap to pass up a nice gun over for. The comments were like a crash course in AR for me, the breakdown of parts costs got me moving, and the link to Palmetto State Armory did the trick. Thanks much again.

 

[Cobracutter]

Hold off on buying a new barrel or trigger. Learn to shoot it stock.

There is a very good chance by that time, you will want something else. Probally a second gun. Don't butcher a 6920.

 

[Lumpen]

Hold off on buying a new barrel or trigger. Learn to shoot it stock.

There is a very good chance by that time, you will want something else. Probally a second gun. Don't butcher a 6920.

That is my fear. I bought it to take apart, but will see. I'll be set back enough getting a scope, which I might work on first.