Rifle Scopes How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

N

nfoley

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 15, 2010
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Castle Rock, CO
#1
Rather than asking how many people shooting longrange (>500yds)
use the anti-cant devices, I thought I would ask how many do NOT and feel they don't need them. I read in a recent post where someone commented they didn't think they were necessary so thought I would get some feedback in a new post from some of the guys that shoot long range. I personally do not but I have not shot a lot past 500m and have been debating starting to use one.
 
#2
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I have never used one. I use my internal eye level
wink.gif
 
#3
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

If you shoot a decent amount past 500 I would recommend one. The further out you go the more useful they become... Angles.

Some say they never have time to use it... but IMO no matter what type of shooting you do, the opportunity will eventually present itself where you have the time to use it. Its not like it weighs a metric ton, or gets in the way and they are not super expensive... I say why not.

Its all a matter of choice and preference... and I prefer to have one.
 
#5
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never used one. I use my internal eye level
wink.gif
</div></div>

hey thats the same model i got, i was given mine by my parents at birth.

In all seriousness i don't own one and never will.
 
#10
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I don't use one (just didn't learn with one many years ago) and routinely shoot 1300yrds. My rig being level isn't as much of a factor at those ranges compared to wind and mirage etc...
 
#11
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I think a better question might be "how many people tried 'em and found 'em useless?".

Personally, I shoot better with one. A buddy that shoots very well was reluctant, and said he found it distracting. But after giving it an honest try and seeing the results, he's now convinced it can help.

It seems to help with both POI and group size in my experience.
 
#12
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I used to use one on a different rifle, found I can tell if the crosshairs are not level just by looking through the scope
grin.gif

Didn't put one on my new Edge, seems just like another gadget unless you can't tell your canted for some reason
 
#13
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

i have one but i often do not use it. although, my buddy has a spuhr mount with the level built in, and it is in the perfect position to catch it in your left eye and make a quick adjustment. so if i decide to upgrade to that mount it may get looked at more often.
 
#14
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

First, most NRA classified shooters call out to 600yards MIDRANGE shooting. Long range occurs out past that.

These days I am mostly shoot midrange. Back in my salad days I shot alot more true long range. The guys I shot with were world class, international competitors. I'd say 75% had no level on or in the scope. Only knew for sure of one guy on the US F-Class team who had a level on his scope.

Last F-TR string I shot was 194 out of 200 and I cant recall the X count. I would have done better not by adding a level but by believeing the wind wasnt that strong, once I believed i was right and tight.

Some may chalk the misses to canting the rifle, I have seen alot of shooters struggle for a good wind call through the rifle scope while I am coaching on a spotter scope. I find wind reading ALOT easier on a spotter scope and if you watch alot of team shoots where a coach gets to help you see an improvement. So I will go with need to read wind better than try and bolt a level to your rifle.

But that might be just me
 
#15
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I'd like everyone to go to a tactical/sniper match and see how often you have time to use your bubble levels. When you have 30 seconds to drop behind your rifle, chamber a round and engage 5 steel plates at 600 yards you don't really have time to check your bubble level.

Or 20 seconds to do the same and get a shot off on a UKD at 740 yards.

Or shoot a mover at 400 yards then a target at 535 yards then one at 230 and then 310 yards and then back to 400 yard mover in less than a minute.

Get the point?
 
#16
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

At some point you need to decide what type of shooting it is that you do and what type truly interests you, and then move hard in that direction.

Bubbles shine when your prone with lots of time; odd position, slung + time sensitive - not so much

The same can be said for sleds, bi-pods, rucks, rear bags, spikes, slings, various optics and reticles, as well as other accouterments - it depends on what your doing.

While there is a best set up for you, there is not a best set up for all. Some things are universally more efficient though.

Some of the best advice I have seen around here is - you probably ought to be pretty decent with just a sling and irons.

I do not use a bubble and I live in an area where flat ground is hard to come by. Most of my rifle shooting is between 600 and 1,500.


Good luck
 
#17
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't often get to shoot over 600 anymore, but when I have I haven't felt like I was in need of one.. </div></div>

Same here.
 
#18
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I will be the odd man out here. My reasons are different however.

The primary time I use one is when I am shooting when on the side of a mountain. It surprises most to find how much horizontal cant they have.

I am not talking about shooting up or down the hill or in regards to cosine angles.

An example would be you are in a seated position, shooting across a ravine, onto another side hill at an animal, target, whatever.

This type of environment:

082-1.jpg


011-4.jpg


007-8.jpg


The vast majority of experienced shooters do not believe they are canting their guns, until they look at a level.



On flat ground, I rarely do.
 
#20
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

One doesn't <span style="text-decoration: underline">need</span> to have a bubble level (or bipod, or rear monopod, or rear bag, or ballistic calculator, or ...), but it <span style="text-decoration: underline">helps</span> (when your situation allows using it). If sometimes you don't have time to use it (whatever "it" may be) - fine, be ready to do without, and rest assured it isn't going to feel jealous and bitch about it
wink.gif
. What's the big frigging deal?

<span style="font-style: italic">If you mastered the art and can shoot without e.g. a bubble at 1000m+ - great! Nobody's forcing you to take an easy road.

If that bubble device (and wind meter, and ...) can help me get to that skills/class/level with less time/efforts/ammo it took you - even better.
smile.gif


And if it caters to my laziness and feeds my reliance on a bagful of mechanical and electronic stuff - too bad.
grin.gif
</span>
 
#21
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bubbles....yeah i would like to use her, but the club she performs at burnt to the ground and has not returned..... </div></div>


last time i used bubbles i had scratches down my back and i had to get a shot. but it was worth it
 
#22
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

Much appreciate all your replies. It really is nice to get so many replies from experienced guys in one site. Polling the one or two guys at the 500 meter range just seems so... limiting.
I am going to try and get involved in some competition locally. Got today off, and headed to the range now!
 
#23
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

At our long range matches (well mid to some of you) about half use them. I have one on each of my long range pistols and find it very helpful to double check. Since it's a single shot I don't enter the matches where I have to get off multiple shots in quick succession at varying distances so glancing up for that quick double check isn't a big deal.

One thing I find interesting is some shooters line up on the stake or side of the target, I just love when the pole or target is leaning over and a shooter has lined up on it and that slight cant causes a miss at the farther smaller targets.

I'd say try one for yourself and see if it will work for the kind of shooting you do. It's not a crutch but just another shooter aide that can be beneficial at times.

Topstrap
 
#24
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I do not use one. They do have a place. When long range hunting they help get every ounce of accuracy and consistency out of your rifle. Many who shoot static competitions will use them to insure they do not fire a canted shot in a string. If I shoot the same rifle a lot it is easy to get muscle memory and be able to know by feel if my rifle is canted, but going between a few rifles it is easy to shoot one at a cant because you may not be able to see in the scope it is canted. Optical illusions are everywhere. I hunted in one area the farmer harvested his land and the way the land was made all of the straight lines look like they were separating. Opposite to how a road turns into a point in the distance. That place messed with my head. I did get quite a few coyotes in that area but it was hard to see the opposite of that your brain is used to. That was an extreme case but how many times have we looked across a valley and saw many lines at an angle with no level lines to match up to?

Like the team blaster guy said in the competition he is shooting they are not needed. Most of those targets are plenty generous. Not to say it is not easy to miss but wind is a much more common reason for missing than cant. Most of this type of shooter I know only have one or two rifles they consistently shoot with.

To me rifles are like golf clubs. Even though you have six 308 rifles they all have a different reason for being in the safe. It can be from hitting hard at short range, hunting, a toy, long range fun, long range competition, or just to look cool.
 
#25
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mackay Sagebrush</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be the odd man out here. My reasons are different however.

The primary time I use one is when I am shooting when on the side of a mountain. It surprises most to find how much horizontal cant they have.

I am not talking about shooting up or down the hill or in regards to cosine angles.

An example would be you are in a seated position, shooting across a ravine, onto another side hill at an animal, target, whatever.

This type of environment:

082-1.jpg


011-4.jpg


007-8.jpg


The vast majority of experienced shooters do not believe they are canting their guns, until they look at a level.



On flat ground, I rarely do.

</div></div>

You sir hit the nail on the head. When your shooting at nice square target frames do you need one? Probably not. But when your setting up for that 900 yd shot on an elk in uneven terrain you can bet your butt having one will help you make consistant shots.
 
#27
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rpk762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like the team blaster guy said in the competition he is shooting they are not needed. Most of those targets are plenty generous. </div></div>

I wish the targets were generous LOL

If I were taking a 900 yard shot on a living creature then you are damn straight I would do everything I could to make sure that shot is 100% as I would have the time and I would not want to wound the animal. I'd use a laser to range, read the wind for a while so I know what it was doing and make sure everything was as perfect as I could make it before squeezing the trigger.

What I posted above was meant to give some insight for people who have never shot in a tactical match environment when there isn't alot of time to make shots let alone look at a bubble level. You're not shooting with plenty of time off of level concrete. You're not shooting at perfect target frames. You have to learn to have the eye to see what level is and know how your body feels behind the rifle so there is no cant.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If that bubble device (and wind meter, and ...) can help me get to that skills/class/level with less time/efforts/ammo it took you - even better.
smile.gif
</div></div>

It comes from practice. Like anything else in this sport. If you think you can buy it then go for it and come out to a match and we will see.
 
#28
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I'm with Rob on this one.

I saw so many levels on rifles at the 'Cup, probably because everyone on the Internet was saying at the time that they were necessary. Not once did I see anyone use a level, never mind use it properly, during the match.

I think I might have been the person to which the OP referred in his first post. If so, my comments started here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...170#Post2510170
 
#29
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If that bubble device (and wind meter, and ...) can help me get to that skills/class/level with less time/efforts/ammo it took you - even better.
smile.gif
</div></div>
It comes from practice. Like anything else in this sport. If you think you can buy it then go for it and come out to a match and we will see. </div></div>
Of course it comes from practice - like wind reading or estimating ranges. But would you agree that being able to instantly validate your estimate against a precise device would improve the "reading skill" more rapidly? <span style="font-style: italic">And that's precisely what I meant.</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">P.S. Oh, and I already went for it, and got myself a nice Kestrel and a nice bubble level (actually it came with the scope, but that's besides the point). I do find them both a big help, and expect to learn doing with and without the crutches.

If/when you need to make that one shot count - if you <span style="text-decoration: underline">can</span> use a crutch (and you pointed out that it isn't always possible), IMHO it would be stupid not to (no insult meant or implied).
</span>
 
#30
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course it comes from practice - like wind reading or estimating ranges. But would you agree that being able to instantly validate your estimate against a precise device would improve the "reading skill" more rapidly? <span style="font-style: italic">And that's precisely what I meant.</span></div></div>Leveling a rifle is not like learning how to estimate the wind or the range to a target. You are already fully equipped to walk level, stand level, and hold your head level.
 
#32
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course it comes from practice - like wind reading or estimating ranges. But would you agree that being able to instantly validate your estimate against a precise device would improve the "reading skill" more rapidly? <span style="font-style: italic">And that's precisely what I meant.</span></div></div>Leveling a rifle is not like learning how to estimate the wind or the range to a target. You are already fully equipped to walk level, stand level, and hold your head level. </div></div>


In Michigan...sure OK
 
#34
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

These two Mule Deer were shot at 598 yards. They were on a rather steep sidehill. I did not have a bubble level on the rifle at the time. I did however take my time, double checked my cosine angle, double checked my math, etc.

2005Deer598yds308Tikka.jpg


My prep took time, the two shots were fast. Point being, if I have the time to eliminate a variable ( by using a bubble level, cosine angle indicator, calculator, bipod or whatever)and increase my likelyhood for a high probability shot, I will.

If I cannot take a high probability shot, I will pass on the shot. Range to target is only one factor with determining if the shot is a high or low probability one.

This is what has worked for me. Others may have different methods
 
#35
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course it comes from practice - like wind reading or estimating ranges. But would you agree that being able to instantly validate your estimate against a precise device would improve the "reading skill" more rapidly? <span style="font-style: italic">And that's precisely what I meant.</span></div></div>Leveling a rifle is not like learning how to estimate the wind or the range to a target. You are already fully equipped to walk level, stand level, and hold your head level. </div></div>
I envy you if you were born with such precision. I on the other hand find that my sense of "level" is improved by cross-checking against the bubble device.

Apparently many professionals in other occupations (e.g. carpentry) have the same shortcoming as I do - and use levels in their field to improve or correct their "natural" sense of level, though they probably were already as fully equipped to walk, stand and hold their heads level as you and I.
 
#37
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I started using a bubble fairly recently. I saw the light while missing with one of Broz's rifles in irregular terrain. I thought everything looked level. When Broz said to me "check the level", it was an eye opener. I was a full bubble off. Levelled up and was dead center, at 700-ish yards.

If you are not in a rush, it can be useful. Especially if you are doing a lot of shooting "off road", in uneven terrain.

CopyofP4210045.jpg
 
#38
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njlohmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never used a level and I don't ever plan on using one. It just seems like something else to distract from proper implementation of the fundamentals of marksmanship. </div></div>

Brilliant.

CAUTION: The use of a bubble level on uneven terrain will suddenly cause you to lose command of 35 years of ingrained marksmanship fundamentals.

ALSO: Spit out that gum!
 
#39
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

Occasionally use a bubble level for horizontal milling, and for angles I use a cosign indicator, there nice when time isn’t factor, but when you have seconds to engage multiple targets, the last thing I’m looking at is my bubble level.
 
#40
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

If you are shooting long range at a paper target on frames, then it is not necessary to use a level as the horizontal line of your reticule is used to reference the square target or frame. I do use a level on all of my 1000 yard rifles though. The main thing is consistency.
 
#41
Re: How many LR shooters Don't use bubbles

I've never used one before, but then I have only shot one match with optics. I hadn't really thought about it before, but I think it would be good for practice. To use an Army phrase, it will help you know "what right looks like," or in this case, feels like. I don't see how it could hurt unless you have a horrible case of OCD.
 
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