How much do dies really matter in accuracy?

[Bacarrat]

Picking up a new caliber soon and was thinking about switching brands of dies. Usually I would always use the Redding Type S Full length size die with the Competition seater. Really never had a problem with the Reddings, just wondering if the squeeze is worth the juice in some of the higher end dies like the Whidden, SAC or the LE Wilson dies or better yet, have a set of Newlon custom cut when I get the new barrel spun up. Has anyone done the upgrade and can say that X die definitely makes better ammo then Y dies. I understand some dies can produce better concentricity, but has any ever really tested that it does really produce better accuracy?. And FWIW, I have separated out the decapping and expanding out into it's own steps. A little more work but I like that control more.

 

[alamo5000]

In skilled hands the reloader can make great ammo with almost anything that is remotely quality from any reputable source.

A perfect die will not correct other reloading mistakes.

In my opinion 'the big picture' matters more, especially once you get to a certain level of 'good tools'.

 

[DarinC]

Scott Saterlee was on the Modern Day Sniper podcast a year or so ago and said he uses the normal $35 Hornady dies. FWIW

 

[SWgeezer]

I have found that the high quality sizing dies take less lube and scratch cases less than the economy lines.

 

[AllenOne1]

I think the sizing die is very important in the reloading process. Having a die that sizes the brass to fit your chamber reduces the amount of sizing required, reduces run out, determines neck tension on the bullet unless you are finishing with a mandrel and assures smooth operation of the gun.

I would leave the Redding behind and move to the Whidden or SAC sizing die if you have the budget to do it. The Hornady dies work fine for me if they size the brass to fit the chamber in your chosen rifle.

Match it up with the seating die of your choice.

 

[Clark]

I experimented with dies in 2009. I used my 223 die collection with populations of 20 pieces of brass and fired them again and again measuring case length growth and concentricity.
Each population of brass was dedicated to one die, over and over.

I had already tested my way to believing the biggest trick in handloading is not to use an expander ball on the case sizing step.

No expander balls were used.

My hypothesis was my dies were in a hierarchy
A) Redding S die with bushing 0.002" smaller than loaded neck. Expensive and fancy looking.
B) RCBS, LEE, FL sizer dies
C) Lee collet neck die. Cheap and crude looking.

The die choice was the independent variable.
Case length growth and concentricity were the dependent variables.

The data showed my hierarchy was upside down.

 

[smoothy8500]

Wow, how do we make a decision based on this mess:
One person thinks it makes a difference.

A guru on reloading uses basic dies.

Another says it makes a difference on lube and scratches

Someone else did an empirical study and found an inverse correlation to cost and accuracy.....

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I’ve watched benchresters hammer cases in and out of Lee Load-all dies on the range. They’re shooting one hole with cases literally driven into the die with a hammer.

Everything matters some. Errors are cumulative, generally not single point.

But I will argue that your process, repeatability and attention to detail are far more important than the color of the box your dies come in.

I have dies from every maker you have heard of and some English and Euro makers I’d never heard of. Never questioned whether some were better. I focus on consistency and process.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Sirhr

 

[918v]

Wow, how do we make a decision based on this mess:
One person thinks it makes a difference.

A guru on reloading uses basic dies.

Another says it makes a difference on lube and scratches

Someone else did an empirical study and found an inverse correlation to cost and accuracy.....

Dies are tools to prep cases for loading. How you use those tools makes a difference.

 

[Rust]

While it's nice to have the fancy pants dies, I've loaded match grade low runout rounds using Lee dies. But I do use Redding micrometer competition seating dies because of the convenience in setting seating depth accurately, seat long, measure, set the die and GTG. Now if you really wanted to get fancy, get a chambering reamer, die reamer and gauges from the same maker, and have a custom sizing die made for your chamber.

 

[jrh84]

I have no doubt the Redding/Forster/LE Wilson's/Triebel, etc are great dies, and I would never fault anyone for buying high quality stuff. That being said, I went distinguished, won 3 state championships (across the course, midrange prone, and long range prone) and shot lots of high master scores using Lee dies. It's what I had when I started shooting highpower, and what I kept using. Actually all but the long range state title was done on a cheap Lee press.

I've since changed to an RCBS Summitt press and RCBS gold medal micrometer seating die, but those were more for convenience/ease of use than anything else. I can't say my scores are any better than when I was using all Lee stuff. I still use the Lee resizing/decapping die.

 

[GhostFace]

When I loaded for 5.56 (Mk262 clone) I used cheap Lee dies and I was surprised how accurate my loads were. I purchased expensive (to me) Redding Comp dies for .308 and my 5.56 loads were just as accurate.

When I had a LR custom .30-06 built I bought standard Redding dies and I couldn't get my loads under 1 MOA. After playing with COAL I eventually purchased a Redding Comp Bullet seater die and my groups shrank dramatically.

I longer buy cheap dies....

 

[hafejd30]

My go to setup if it’s available is

Lee Collet
Redding Body
Redding seater

Those SAC look decent

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I have no doubt the Redding/Forster/LE Wilson's/Triebel, etc are great dies, and I would never fault anyone for buying high quality stuff. That being said, I went distinguished, won 3 state championships (across the course, midrange prone, and long range prone) and shot lots of high master scores using Lee dies. It's what I had when I started shooting highpower, and what I kept using. Actually all but the long range state title was done on a cheap Lee press.

I've since changed to an RCBS Summitt press and RCBS gold medal micrometer seating die, but those were more for convenience/ease of use than anything else. I can't say my scores are any better than when I was using all Lee stuff. I still use the Lee resizing/decapping die.

To echo JRH and Rust… a nice
Micrometer seating die is where to invest….

Love mine and don’t know how I got along without them (well, I do know. It took me longer.).

But, yes, good seating dies are nice to have!!

Sirhr

 

[jrh84]

Sirhr,
When I was exclusively loading for service rifle across the course matches, I actually bought a 2nd set of Lee "RGB" does just to have a 2nd seater. They have a thimble like the micrometer, but aren't marked. All my ammo was either mag length 69 SMK's or long-loaded 80 SMK's that had to be single-fed for 600 yards. Rather than muck around with adjusting the unmarked die every time I swapped bullets, I just spent another $18 for a 2nd die that I taped to the right setting.

Even if I had primo high dollar dies, I'll always have a cheap set of Lee dies as backups. They're too inexpensive not to have on hand.

 

[Clark]

Sliding sleeve seater dies can produce 0.001" better concentricity that simple seater dies.
That has too small an effect for me to measure on the target.

 

[Westcoast308]

Picking up a new caliber soon and was thinking about switching brands of dies. Usually I would always use the Redding Type S Full length size die with the Competition seater. Really never had a problem with the Reddings, just wondering if the squeeze is worth the juice in some of the higher end dies like the Whidden, SAC or the LE Wilson dies or better yet, have a set of Newlon custom cut when I get the new barrel spun up. Has anyone done the upgrade and can say that X die definitely makes better ammo then Y dies. I understand some dies can produce better concentricity, but has any ever really tested that it does really produce better accuracy?. And FWIW, I have separated out the decapping and expanding out into it's own steps. A little more work but I like that control more.

Since your getting a new caliber anyway go for a custom die set or at least the seater. 21st century has a good price on their arbor press style which is the way to go it’s custom to your chamber and bullet. https://21stcenturyinnovation.com/buy-online/ols/products/calibrated-bullet-seater-die
Bryan Litz talks about runout effecting accuracy in one of his Applied Ballistics books(can’t remember which one) all of them are worth reading. Whidden dies are reasonable for what you get and they use Redding, Wilson or SAC bushings. Off the shelf Wilson has the finest, they don’t try to make everything like other company’s their focus is dies. Attached is a good article explaining how runout effects the bullet and some testing as well.

Bullet Runout - How It Affects Accuracy - RifleShooter

A simple test of sorting ammo and a shooting session at the range will show how bullet runout can affect the accuracy of your rifles.

www.rifleshootermag.com

For me personally when I switched over to a arbor press seater it tightened up the groups say a good 1/10th MOA but most importantly it significantly cut down on flyers. Ten shot groups at 200yrds taught me a lot. I was spoiled with a virtually wind free(mornings anyway at Usery Pass Mesa, AZ) range to test on. I feel it was giving the bullets twice as much time to screwup vs the standard 100yrds.
Pros for a custom die: Working your brass the least amount while still able to feed smoother than just neck sizing.
Less runout in several articles I’ve read on 6mmbr.com I’ve had to take my ammo to someone with a nice runout gauge to checkout but the arbor press/ inline seater definitely helps. If your chamber is custom in anyway and really if it has less runout than a factory chamber does then it “needs” a custom die.
Cons: The die is sort of married to a specific chamber, fine for me using a Compass Lake chamber in a couple rifles that works well. More expensive but at least subtract the cost of the off the shelf die from the cost. If you go the custom route do yourself a favor and shoot a factory(virgin brass) round with most importantly the brass your going to use and at least the same projectile weight to simulate all the same conditions. I’m not sure it makes a big difference or not but my OCD wouldn’t have it any other way. What caliber are you going for? I’m a simpleton with my .308 Winchester and .223 stuff. Thinking about a 6mm ARC if I ever start seeing the ammo on a shelf.

 

[Westcoast308]

Since your getting a new caliber anyway go for a custom die set or at least the seater. 21st century has a good price on their arbor press style which is the way to go it’s custom to your chamber and bullet. https://21stcenturyinnovation.com/buy-online/ols/products/calibrated-bullet-seater-die
Bryan Litz talks about runout effecting accuracy in one of his Applied Ballistics books(can’t remember which one) all of them are worth reading. Whidden dies are reasonable for what you get and they use Redding, Wilson or SAC bushings. Off the shelf Wilson has the finest, they don’t try to make everything like other company’s their focus is dies. Attached is a good article explaining how runout effects the bullet and some testing as well.

Bullet Runout - How It Affects Accuracy - RifleShooter

A simple test of sorting ammo and a shooting session at the range will show how bullet runout can affect the accuracy of your rifles.

www.rifleshootermag.com

For me personally when I switched over to a arbor press seater it tightened up the groups say a good 1/10th MOA but most importantly it significantly cut down on flyers. Ten shot groups at 200yrds taught me a lot. I was spoiled with a virtually wind free(mornings anyway at Usery Pass Mesa, AZ) range to test on. I feel it was giving the bullets twice as much time to screwup vs the standard 100yrds.
Pros for a custom die: Working your brass the least amount while still able to feed smoother than just neck sizing.
Less runout in several articles I’ve read on 6mmbr.com I’ve had to take my ammo to someone with a nice runout gauge to checkout but the arbor press/ inline seater definitely helps. If your chamber is custom in anyway and really if it has less runout than a factory chamber does then it “needs” a custom die.
Cons: The die is sort of married to a specific chamber, fine for me using a Compass Lake chamber in a couple rifles that works well. More expensive but at least subtract the cost of the off the shelf die from the cost. If you go the custom route do yourself a favor and shoot a factory(virgin brass) round with most importantly the brass your going to use and at least the same projectile weight to simulate all the same conditions. I’m not sure it makes a big difference or not but my OCD wouldn’t have it any other way. What caliber are you going for? I’m a simpleton with my .308 Winchester and .223 stuff. Thinking about a 6mm ARC if I ever start seeing the ammo on a shelf.

Great example of why arbor press seating dies produce the best ammo.

 

[JM4590]

Ok….lemme throw THIS out….. what are you trying to accomplish? You may have the BEST dies, brass, primer, bullet, in the world. But if you are shooting them from a pencil thin POS rifle, then what makes the diff? Reloading components are only part of the equation. The stick that goes bang is equally important, as is one’s ability to make said stick group. Manage your expectations and spend accordingly. If you are a .150 shooter, with a full on custom rig, then by all means, buy the best of the best reloading components. If you are shooting junk at the local shit pit, save your bucks for other stuff and rock on!

 

[MarkyMark007]

Great example of why arbor press seating dies produce the best ammo.

totaly wrong.

runout doesnt matter.

and second: runout is not induced by seating phase, but with sizing phase. and all of 'inline' seating dies has tight chamber for brass and bullet, not only arbor seating die.

 

[SanPatHogger]

Part of me wants to have some fancy dies. The other part of me says my Lee full length sizing die and dead length bullet seating die work fine.
This is only 3 shots. I suppose if you were to shoot a 10 shot group it would open up a lot. I was pretty lucky, I loaded some up and they shot great, upped the powder charge a little and they are slightly faster and still shoot great.
What kind of accuracy are you looking for? How much do you want to spend? Besides having fancy dies, what goes into your reloading process?

 

[Rover31]

if the the die has concentricity it can shoot very well given all the other factors

 

[Westcoast308]

Part of me wants to have some fancy dies. The other part of me says my Lee full length sizing die and dead length bullet seating die work fine.
This is only 3 shots. I suppose if you were to shoot a 10 shot group it would open up a lot. I was pretty lucky, I loaded some up and they shot great, upped the powder charge a little and they are slightly faster and still shoot great.
What kind of accuracy are you looking for? How much do you want to spend? Besides having fancy dies, what goes into your reloading process?

View attachment 8084190

Very nice, what’s the rifle combo?

 

[SanPatHogger]

Very nice, what’s the rifle combo?

Remington Sportman 78. Cheap 700 made in the 80s. Criterion 1:7 26inch MTU 243 match chamber. 115 Berger VLD hunting bullets.
Guys on here recommended the Criterion barrel. I am super happy with it. The cool part is if you like to do things yourself you can put the barrel on and headspace it yourself.

 

[Westcoast308]

Remington Sportman 78. Cheap 700 made in the 80s. Criterion 1:7 26inch MTU 243 match chamber. 115 Berger VLD hunting bullets.
Guys on here recommended the Criterion barrel. I am super happy with it. The cool part is if you like to do things yourself you can put the barrel on and headspace it yourself.

I have a Criterion on a 1917 Enfield(Eddystone one) cheap Walmart 30-06 ammo has shot some ridiculously good groups. They are the best deal in the barrel world. Here is a nod to your Lee loading dies. For me I like micrometer dies and the bit fancier dies don’t feel expensive after buying powder and good bullets(like Bergers!).

 

[CK1.0]

Expensive dies are snake oil marketed to the same fudds who fell/fall for the $600 priming tool grift lol.

I've owned dies from LE Wilson, Dillon, Forster, Redding, Hornady, Mighty Armory, and Lee. The only one I ever hated enough to send back was one of the pricier ones (Mighty Armory).

Some of the best shooting ammo I've ever made was made with a ~$20 Lee die.

 

[MK20]

The second best group I ever shot was 2 inches at 700 yards with ammo made on a Lee die set.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Great example of why arbor press seating dies produce the best ammo.

I’d welcome anyone to articulate how this video shows anything that will show up on target.

Not saying it won’t, but would love to hear any articulate it.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

totaly wrong.

runout doesnt matter.

and second: runout is not induced by seating phase, but with sizing phase. and all of 'inline' seating dies has tight chamber for brass and bullet, not only arbor seating die.

This is incorrect info. There’s different kinds of runout. Bullet and neck.