PRS Talk How much gear should be allowed?

[Dthomas3523]

The one thing deploying on stage would result in a more streamlined equipment load out, which in my opinion results in a more realistic style field match. If there's not some limit on what someone can do on a stage, why even have stage designs at all then? The equipment is slowly but surely mimicking benchrest equipment instead of "tactical" equipment.

This is a good point.

If someone can carry it and deploy it fast enough to make shots under time, it theoretically would make it “field expedient.”

As mentioned above, making someone carry it the whole match or keep it on the gun once attached is a good idea.

 

[Rob01]

 

[Tx_Aggie]

A lot of this arguing over trying to keep PRS/NRL "realistic" by imposing a bunch of arbitrary rules based on what someone feels like everyone else should be doing reminds me of IDPA, and not in a good way.

 

[Mormegil87]

Im just over here still trying to figure out what people have against tripods?

 

[Alpine 338]

Im just over here still trying to figure out what people have against tripods?

Because some are convenced that you need a $1200 tripod to be competitive, and don't want to spend the money?

 

[Mormegil87]

Because some are convenced that you need a $1200 tripod to be competitive, and don't want to spend the money?

Man, I must have been doing it wrong through the GAP Grind and my local series finale. I have one of those $1200 tripods and all it does is carry my binos. Oh well

 

[Alpine 338]

Because some are convenced that you need a $1200 tripod to be competitive, and don't want to spend the money?

Also perceived "Need" for a tripod is a far from reality.

 

[Mormegil87]

But hey, it does a bang up job holding those binos.

Also does a bang up job holding my rifle during hunting season and the one or two tripod stages there are during the year.

 

[Yoteski]

Nothing against tripods, it's when they are used to completely circumvent the intentions of a stage. I.e. "rifle must rest on said rope", and a competitor locks their gun in a tripod and "touches" the barricade with the rifle.
For me it's not just tripods, it's that the whole thing is getting gimmicky and there's no end in sight to new gimmick availability. In the end the gimmicks are fine. It comes down to being able to stage up on a stage to implement said gimmicks; wastes time and IMO, eats away at the intent of the stage......that's a lot of gimmicks.

 

[Mormegil87]

Like stated above you could cut down on the use of gimmicks quite a bit with a few tweaks:

1. Everything must be in hand at the start of the stage.
2. Everything must be deployed on the clock.
3. Par times of 90 seconds or less become the standard. 2 minutes is an eternity.
   3a) Add more movement.

I'm not opposed to stage by stage gear restrictions but the blanket match/series gear restrictions are excessive and in a lot of ways pointless.

 

[Alpine 338]

Nothing against tripods, it's when they are used to completely circumvent the intentions of a stage. I.e. "rifle must rest on said rope", and a competitor locks their gun in a tripod and "touches" the barricade with the rifle.

There is a good example of it working both ways. What you are discribing right there is a Gimmicky stage setup. Rest on a rope? Yes, there are situations where Mil or LE have shot supported by a rope like in a make shift Hide, or a line across the door opening in a helicopter, but let's get serious. If a match director cannot come up with a better prop, I don't blame people adapting to the situation with the gear they carry, or some people would call it "Gaming".

Remember, the objective of the game is to impact the target, in the time limit provided. I would give anyone the leeway to use any method they choose, with the gear they carry, in the time frame afforded them. If they accomplish the mission, hats off to them.

Last year, my partner/co-match director said to me. When people get upset about a shooter who thinks outside the box, and uses his environment and his equipment to his advantage, the other shooters are pissed off because they didn't think of it first.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

All I am going to say about tripods is this - a lot of people used them on the positional TYL stage at Altus this weekend.

Everyone that cleaned that stage didn't use a tripod, they used a gamechanger and a Fat Bag or similar in the back. I dropped one on that stage with the same gear.

The one stage where you "needed" a tripod (shooting out of a 'bunker' through a port in the front), you had plenty to pick from on the stage. I used leg extensions on my bipod and a rear bag, and I dropped one out of 12.

The points I dropped on both stages were 100% my fault, and wouldn't have changed if I used a tripod.

Ironically, I picked up a new tripod off the prize table, but it's still going to be almost exclusively used for spotters and binos.

 

[308pirate]

 

[308pirate]

I think the reconfiguring of rifles between stages is borderline unsportsmanlike

If rules aren't being violated, how is it unsportsmanlike?

 

[308pirate]

I remember about a year or so ago, USPSA and/or 3-Gun Nation was talking about starting a long range precision series. Not sure if they saw it as a money maker because of the success of the NRL, or just wanting to make a better mouse trap, so to speak.

They we're told nicely to think about it, as standardizing it would ruin the Sport, and they were also sternly warned that they would ruin it if they proceeded. Since then, I have heard little about them promoting the sport.

You keep inserting standardized and USPSA in the same sentence. I'm not sure you've ever shot a USPSA match......there is nothing standardized about the courses of fire (except for the classifiers, obviously). When it comes to firearms and related gear, there are almost no restrictions in Open, Revolver, Limited, and Limited 10, and even within Production and Single Stack equipment rules there is a ton of leeway.

And finding creative ways to shoot a stage (gaming it) is almost a sport unto itself in USPSA.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

You keep inserting standardized and USPSA in the same sentence. I'm not sure you've ever shot a USPSA match......there is nothing standardized about the courses of fire (except for the classifiers, obviously). When it comes to firearms and related gear, there are almost no restrictions in Open, Revolver, Limited, and Limited 10, and even within Production and Single Stack equipment rules there is a ton of leeway.

And finding creative ways to shoot a stage (gaming it) is almost a sport unto itself in USPSA.

I've seen people do baseball slides under walls in USPSA to get from one shoot box to another faster than the other guys. Your last statement is a major understatement.

 

[Alpine 338]

@308pirate Yes, I've shot a lot of USPSA, but mostly at my local range (put on by a small local club) where you may have only 50-shooters show on a rare day, and usually only 25 or less. I guess my experience is they always use a pre-designed stage that someone at a higher level designed. They usually email the stages out the day before, so you know what you'll be shooting. I mostly refer to the endless pages of rules as "Standardized", but over the 10-years I've been shooting USPSA (only two or three matches a year these days), I see the repeat of a lot of Stages.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

@308pirate Yes, I've shot a lot of USPSA, but mostly at my local range (put on by a small local club) where you may have only 50-shooters show on a rare day, and usually only 25 or less. I guess my experience is they always use a pre-designed stage that someone at a higher level designed. They usually email the stages out the day before, so you know what you'll be shooting. I mostly refer to the endless pages of rules as "Standardized", but over the 10-years I've been shooting USPSA (only two or three matches a year these days), I see the repeat of a lot of Stages.

Sounds like your local club is lazy. Outside of classifiers, I have yet to see the same stage twice, but I don't shoot a lot of USPSA.

 

[Alpine 338]

Sounds like your local club is lazy. Outside of classifiers, I have yet to see the same stage twice, but I don't shoot a lot of USPSA.

I was more serious about it when I first started. These days I don't really care as Precision Rifle or Team Matches take precedence over USPSA, as there are even too many conflicts between rifle matches.

I did upgrade from a SIG X-Five to a CZ Shadow 2

Small Town, so they don't have a lot of organization or manpower. These days I only shoot those pistol matches to get some trigger time with speed.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I was more serious about it when I first started. These days I don't really care as Precision Rifle or Team Matches take precedence over USPSA, as there are even too many conflicts between rifle matches.

I did upgrade from a SIG X-Five to a CZ Shadow 2

Small Town, so they don't have a lot of organization or manpower. These days I only shoot those pistol matches to get some trigger time with speed.

That's the same reason I shoot our local matches - trying to not let my handgun skills go to shit.

 

[308pirate]

@308pirate Yes, I've shot a lot of USPSA, but mostly at my local range (put on by a small local club) where you may have only 50-shooters show on a rare day, and usually only 25 or less. I guess my experience is they always use a pre-designed stage that someone at a higher level designed. They usually email the stages out the day before, so you know what you'll be shooting. I mostly refer to the endless pages of rules as "Standardized", but over the 10-years I've been shooting USPSA (only two or three matches a year these days), I see the repeat of a lot of Stages.

As Hollywood already said, the problem is with your local club not USPSA as a competitive discipline.

The "endless" pages of rules is a bullshit red herring.

• If you want to be an RO, yeah you need to know them all. If you don't, you only need to know a fraction of them
• If you only shoot in one Division, you don't need to read any rules about any other division that is of no interest

The USPSA rulebook provides stability, objectivity, scalability, and provides an environment where it's much more difficult for drama and asshattery to take hold (still happens tho).

I shoot production and I cracked the rulebook yesterday for the first time in years just because I moved some mag pouches on my belt and didn't remember where the fwd limit was. Took all of five min to read.

Oh yeah, I can tell you from personal experience that seeing a paper layout of the stages ahead of time does little to nothing to help you when you're in the starting position making ready.

 

[Alpine 338]

I shoot production and I cracked the rulebook yesterday for the first time in years just because I moved some mag pouches on my belt and didn't remember where the fwd limit was. Took all of five min to read.

Oh yeah, I can tell you from personal experience that seeing a paper layout of the stages ahead of time does little to nothing to help you when you're in the starting position making ready.

Here's the problem I have with USPSA, they have a lot of stupid rules, just like what you mentioned above about mag holsters. Who cares if someone runs a drop leg holster? But in USPSA it's not allowed unless your LE or Mil and the match director allows it. Real life, I see it often (at least in Arizona, Western Colorado, and Wyoming), Ranchers, Farmers, Hunters, etc. wear drop leg holsters.

Every single USPSA match I've been to, even a classifier, they allow you to walk through the course before you shoot. All the top guys are there with their finger pointed as as if they are doing a dry run, going through the motions of shooting the course, even the mag change aspect. I see the same thing happening in PRS/NRL matches where the shooters are climbing all over the stage prop, practicing and seeing how they're going to shoot the stage. It's stupid, and wastes a lot of time. Last year we had two stages in our NRL match that you weren't allowed to approach, until you were ready to shoot. I would like to add more of those in the future. And before anyone cries, you could still see all the targets from the staging areas.

I personally like the blind stages that team matches provide. All your strategy (or gaming) has to be done on the spot during time. And because, you don't have 30-people watching you shoot, it takes the endless complaining and drama away from the sport.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Every single USPSA match I've been to, even a classifier, they allow you to walk through the course before you shoot. All the top guys are there with their finger pointed as as if they are doing a dry run, going through the motions of shooting the course, even the mag change aspect. I see the same thing happening in PRS/NRL matches where the shooters are climbing all over the stage prop, practicing and seeing how they're going to shoot the stage. It's stupid, and wastes a lot of time. Last year we had two stages in our NRL match that you weren't allowed to approach, until you were ready to shoot. I would like to add more of those in the future. And before anyone cries, you could still see all the targets from the staging areas.

This is how the entire Altus match was run this past weekend, with the sole exception of the shoot house stage - and the walkthrough was just long enough for everyone to know which 5 windows were in play.

 

[308pirate]

Here's the problem I have with USPSA, they have a lot of stupid rules, just like what you mentioned above about mag holsters. Who cares if someone runs a drop leg holster? But in USPSA it's not allowed unless your LE or Mil and the match director allows it. Real life, I see it often (at least in Arizona, Western Colorado, and Wyoming), Ranchers, Farmers, Hunters, etc. wear drop leg holsters.

Every single USPSA match I've been to, even a classifier, they allow you to walk through the course before you shoot. All the top guys are there with their finger pointed as as if they are doing a dry run, going through the motions of shooting the course, even the mag change aspect. I see the same thing happening in PRS/NRL matches where the shooters are climbing all over the stage prop, practicing and seeing how they're going to shoot the stage. It's stupid, and wastes a lot of time. Last year we had two stages in our NRL match that you weren't allowed to approach, until you were ready to shoot. I would like to add more of those in the future. And before anyone cries, you could still see all the targets from the staging areas.

I personally like the blind stages that team matches provide. All your strategy (or gaming) has to be done on the spot during time. And because, you don't have 30-people watching you shoot, it takes the endless complaining and drama away from the sport.

It's a sport. It's JUST a sport.

It has no intention of ever being anything other than a sport. It's not training, tactical, or reality based.

It sounds like it's not for you.

 

[Alpine 338]

It's a sport. It's JUST a sport.

It has no intention of ever being anything other than a sport. It's not training, tactical, or reality based.

It sounds like it's not for you.

I was into it years ago, now I could care less. However, I still think it's full of stupid rules.

 

[308pirate]

I was into it years ago, now I could care less. I still think it's full of stupid rules.

So you're not into it, you couldn't care less, but it still lives in your head rent-free.

Cool

 

[Alpine 338]

So you're not into it, you couldn't care less, but it still lives in your head rent-free.

Cool

Only because I Still shoot the matches from time to time. That is all.

 

[sobrbiker883]

From doing stage design in the PreRS days, I can tell you this:
If you can’t eliminate gaming by either your stage brief or stage design (or both), you aren’t doing your job.

I hate the gear chase personally, but the inconsistency of application of stage and/or range rules, coupled with whiney ass bitch gamers browbeating RO’s and MD’s over points they should’ve gotten made it much less fun than it was years ago.

It used to be “run what you brung, solve the problem”, and it was a blast with a bunch of great friends.

I’m glad the market blew up, that’s great for the industry and sport, but the NASCAR aspect has really had its impact.

 

[silhouette]

Well I didn't expect to get this many replies and wasn't aware that this had been discussed in depth before, so thanks.
I kinda got the answers I needed within the first half a dozen posts and this has even changed my point of view somewhat.

What I take away from this is;

1. Run my match exactly the way I already am. It's working without the need for more rules.
2. Let people spend their money on whatever they want. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it.
3. Accessorise on the clock. you'll soon work out what's a gimmick and what actually helps.
4. At club level we're not gambling sheep stations, we are just there to have fun.

Cheers.

 

[mkollman74]

The answer to, "how much gear should be allowed?" is the same as the answer to, "what should the limit on AR-15 magazine capacity be?" In other words, you are implying gear is the problem, and limiting gear will solve the problem. In both cases, the question misses the point. IMHO, of course...

 

[delfuego]

the problem is with your local club not USPSA as a competitive discipline.

You just know everything about everything, don't you sport? How do you have time to shoot after putting up 6k posts on here?

 

[308pirate]

You just know everything about everything, don't you sport? How do you have time to shoot after putting up 6k posts on here?

It feels so good to know that I live in your head

LOL

 

[Steelcityprecision]

I do agree the equipment has gotten a little out of hand. That being said, I do shoot PRS matches and use some of the gear, but the use of clamps, tables and other items is where I draw the line for my personal use and I do like the innovation . I recently saw some pics from a match where 3-gun carts were used to move gear around...?‍
As a match director, I’ve limited some stages at our events that emphasize rifle skills, not how much equipment you have and can deploy. The “bianchi cup” style of rifle shooting is not for me, but to each their own I guess.
Events we are planning for the future will be very dificult for shooters to be efficient with all the stuff they are carrying these days, but then again these will Be field style events not PRS matches. The stage design will make it too difficult to use all the gadgets.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I do agree the equipment has gotten a little out of hand. That being said, I do shoot PRS matches and use some of the gear, but the use of clamps, tables and other items is where I draw the line for my personal use and I do like the innovation . I recently saw some pics from a match where 3-gun carts were used to move gear around...?‍
As a match director, I’ve limited some stages at our events that emphasize rifle skills, not how much equipment you have and can deploy. The “bianchi cup” style of role shooting is not for me, but to each their own I guess.
Events we are planning for the future will be very dificult for shooters to be efficient with all the stuff they are carrying these days, but then again these will Be field style events not PRS matches. The stage design will make it too difficult to use all the gadgets.

I've started seeing more of them at matches, including several at Altus this past weekend. They will have fun with those at K&M in all that gravel.

 

[Rob01]

Some people using the carts are using them for a reason other than excessive gear though. A friend uses one as he has a prosthetic and a bad back but still wants to shoot.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Some people using the carts are using them for a reason other than excessive gear though. A friend uses one as he has a prosthetic and a bad back but still wants to shoot.

Yep. I've seen them for people that are there with their kids competing, too, to haul around extra snacks, drinks, etc. And some people just don't want to haul a pack and sling their rifle. If I see any of my friends using one (unless I know they have a physical limitation), I'm going to bust their balls for doing it... but I get why some people are using them.

 

[Steelcityprecision]

Some people using the carts are using them for a reason other than excessive gear though. A friend uses one as he has a prosthetic and a bad back but still wants to shoot.

Oh yea, obviously that’s totally cool. Really what I was addressing is the general direction things are going. Needs like your friend I’m totally sympathetic too, and good on him for keeping at it!

 

[Covertnoob5]

All I am going to say about tripods is this - a lot of people used them on the positional TYL stage at Altus this weekend.

Everyone that cleaned that stage didn't use a tripod, they used a gamechanger and a Fat Bag or similar in the back. I dropped one on that stage with the same gear.

The one stage where you "needed" a tripod (shooting out of a 'bunker' through a port in the front), you had plenty to pick from on the stage. I used leg extensions on my bipod and a rear bag, and I dropped one out of 12.

The points I dropped on both stages were 100% my fault, and wouldn't have changed if I used a tripod.

Ironically, I picked up a new tripod off the prize table, but it's still going to be almost exclusively used for spotters and binos.

Ironically enough, I used a tripod for rear support and pint sized in the front, dropped my second shot had to move, ditched the tripod and used only the pint sized and pump pillow from the next spool over and cleaned the rest of it. Had I used a pint sized and pump pillow from the jump I would’ve cleaned the whole stage.

I've started seeing more of them at matches, including several at Altus this past weekend. They will have fun with those at K&M in all that gravel.

I did see a lot of those lol and while I can sympathize with those that need them, I did see a few guys using them because they just carry a gazzilion bags and other shit. That was funny to me.

 

[The Durk]

My mentality (which could be wrong) is I bring what I carry in the field for hunting. I've brought a tripod into the field, I've brought a rear bag in the off chance I'll be shooting on my stomach, I'll bring my entire Eberlestock backpack. What I don't get is the gaming stuff, like who really carries one of those bipods with the 4 foot legs on them?! Usually most people will use shooting sticks or a tripod. I say put a stricter time limit on the event, if a club wishes to limit gear usage.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

My mentality (which could be wrong) is I bring what I carry in the field for hunting. I've brought a tripod into the field, I've brought a rear bag in the off chance I'll be shooting on my stomach, I'll bring my entire Eberlestock backpack. What I don't get is the gaming stuff, like who really carries one of those bipods with the 4 foot legs on them?! Usually most people will use shooting sticks or a tripod. I say put a stricter time limit on the event, if a club wishes to limit gear usage.

I know several predator hunters that carry bipod leg extensions instead of a tripod, and will use a pack for rear support with the legs. I also know plenty of match shooters that carry them instead of shooting sticks, etc.

 

[Vargmat]

Roterjager is on to something. About two years ago I was at a PRS match with no other than Mr.Spuhr as a competition director and RO on some stages.
The match had a simple and effective ground rule, you were allowed to have as much gear as you wanted, say 8 bipods, 15 sacks, bags and what not BUT you had to carry everything yourself. And if you were not holding it when "cease fire" was commanded, it was confiscated and not given back until the competition was over.
The gear queers quickly found them selves missing a lot of the shit they were lugging around, which added to some stress and panic for them. And me, I just had my rifle with a bipod and a tab bag, never lost anything...

 

[Alpine 338]

Again, as said many times. It's not the gear. Why do so many people complain or dismiss certain pieces of gear, yet overlook or ignore to complain about other types of gear?

Some of the same people here are complaining about rifle weight, flat shooting calibers, free recoil, light triggers, etc.

Why aren't you complaining about the use of Christmas Tree reticle's when the match director introduces a stage where you're not allowed to dial? Isn't that a gear race?

Why aren't you complaining about adjustable cheek pieces and length of pull stocks?

Maybe we should go back to complaining about muzzle brakes, as they offer an unfair advantage to those who shoot without one.

How about the sticky grippy materials that are on some bags now, maybe we should limit that? Bags can only have a nylon surface in Precision Rifle matches.

Here's a picture of my setup for shooting at a target in my back yard. The snow is getting so deep, I cannot shoot it in the traditional prone position off my deck. But how dare me use a tripod to create a stable position, that's gaming it, and creating a gear race. I guess I should have only used a sling and one bag.

 

[The Durk]

^ He has an extremely valid point. There's a lot of gray area. I personally don't like the free recoil idea. It's very gamey, unless its in a position where you can't get a proper shoulder contact point due to weird positional shooting. I'm a mediocre shooter at best, so I just shoot to help increase my skills out in the field. This has a really positive and direct carry over for hunting applications, as well as making you a better overall shooter.

 

[Alpine 338]

The point I was trying to make above is, we have an endless amount of products out there to choose from. Some people are traditionalist, some people think certain thing are necessary, or are not necessary. If there's something that you think is unnecessary, absurd, not needed, etc. The simple answer is don't buy one, and don't use it. If you're a traditionalist, limit yourself to the gear you think you should use, but don't impose your views on another person, or group of people.

Is letting someone use the gear they purchased, or borrowed taking anything away from you?

 

[Sheldon N]

All these discussions are the same and start with a single flawed assumption.

I'm not winning because of xxxxxxxx.

Fill in the blank, place the blame on someone else, and let the arguments begin.

 

[sobrbiker883]

I like competition as much as the next guy, but I have to remind myself why I shoot any shooting sports I do-
That is to better my skills, period.

 

[tpayne]

Why don't we just make another division? Call it limited and shooters are limited to one bag and one bipod. That way, everyone who thinks they're not winning because someone else used more gear then them, can all be in the same division, competing against each other. I bet you would have more people sign up for a division like that then you get in production or maybe even tactical.

And I think the carts are awesome. At least they keep the muzzle in a safe direction.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Why don't we just make another division? Call it limited and shooters are limited to one bag and one bipod. That way, everyone who thinks they're not winning because someone else used more gear then them, can all be in the same division, competing against each other. I bet you would have more people sign up for a division like that then you get in production or maybe even tactical.

And I think the carts are awesome. At least they keep the muzzle in a safe direction.

The only issue with a separate division is enforcement - obviously, depending on how the rules are written (one bag for the whole match, or one bag per stage and carry as many as you want, etc). Enforcement of the Tac limits and overall PRS speed limit are pretty spotty as is, and adding another class with restrictions would probably suffer the same problems.

That said, I think it would be worth trying for a season, especially if the PRS or NRL could get a few top shooters (You, Hembree, the Allens, Matt B, etc) on board.

 

[MountainHunter]

The more matches I shoot the less I feel like gaming and the gear race is an issue.

I shot the Accuracy International match at Altus this past weekend as well and the course of fire flat out didn't allow for any wasted time fiddling with extra gear. It was my first east coast match and going in I felt like I would see a bunch of gaming but most everyone I saw that shot well just grabbed their game changer and went and cleaned up.

I'm all for people trying out any crazy way they want to shoot a stage but the MD's can control the gaming by how they setup their course of fire.

That match had all 90 second par times. Automatically forces people to streamline their approach.

The MD at my local range doesn't exactly love the idea of little BR's with no recoil so he throws a spinner in at every match. Hell at his PRS match last year he threw in a double spinner stage that you had to alternate back and forth on. Pissed a lot of people off but I cleaned the stage with my Creedmoor with 140's.

At this point in the game I'm pretty skeptical of the current divisions. There were damn near 150 shooters at Altus, 3 were shooting tactical class and 1 shot production. Kinda devalues those trophies to me.

Either a limited division or novice type division would likely draw more interest. Our club matches force you into novice class until you've shot 10 matches. You get an extra minute per stage and corrections while on the clock if you want them. Helps guys learn and they can be competitive against each other.

 

[lukejr985]

At the end of the day this is a sport or a game for 99 percent of us, im never going to use my rifle fighting the uprising of a populous, never going to fire a shot in war, so my rigs and shooting strategy is just that, everything i do is to defeat a problem (my problem is rifle stages). You dont need thousands of dollars of gear (rifle and optic excluded) to be competitive, most of the guys in the top 10 at every match are using 1 bag and 1 bag alone. most people need to worry about themselves and pump more rounds down range vs. worrying about what others are doing, i promise you if you take that approach you will get better in a fairly quick amount of time.