How much of neck to resize?

[Boatninja]

Using Redding match bushing neck die on once fired 6mm Creedmore brass, how much of the neck do you resize? I know the info is where somewhere but haven't been able to find it.

 

[Rlandry]

Resize it to the shoulder. That's what you depend on for neck tension to hold the bullet.

 

[Supersubes]

The nature of the design won’t let you get 100% of the neck, due to the chamfer in the bushing. I set them up so the bushing has the most minimal amount of float, so basically as much sizing as I can get.

 

[Boatninja]

The nature of the design won’t let you get 100% of the neck, due to the chamfer in the bushing. I set them up so the bushing has the most minimal amount of float, so basically as much sizing as I can get.

Are you using the Redding micrometer adjustable dies?

 

[spife7980]

Are you using the Redding micrometer adjustable dies?

Its any bushing regardless of the neck/full length designation of the die. The micrometer just allows you to raise it higher up easier.
See how it has a chamfer/beveled edge? You wont ever get it to 100% of the neck.

Generally you install them numbers down in case any of the engraving is proud of the top edge. The nonengraved edge goes up so that it is a flush fit to the top of the die when brass is forced into it and lifting it up the slight amount it can. And you install them with just the slightest amount of float, enough so that you can barely hear it rattle in the die so that it can self center itself on the brass instead of being tightened down hard off center.



This is a type S full length

This is a type s comp neck

Both bushings interface with the die the same, the micrometer just has fine threads for easy adjustment, the nonmicro full length just has coarse threads.

IMO the micro neck is just expensive bait for suckers, especially if you are going to be doing any expansion to the neck. Unless you are turning necks and skipping all expansion using only the bushing and the length of neck sizing to vary your bullet grip, then it has a place. So basically benchrest. It makes a bunch of extra steps for a field rifle though with mostly intangible benefits. But when youre trying to get that extra .001 in your groups in benchrest then I can see the benefits.

 

[Boatninja]

Well, I guess they sucked me up, but it isn’t the first time I’ve spent more money than I needed to, I got a Forster press and have shot 40 of the rounds that I have loaded from Hornady once fired brass and knocked the bullets out of I don’t know how many that I loaded and didn’t deem good enough. Have enough loaded for a ladder test and now seeing OCW test. I have a few days home from work so back to the learning process and 10 million questions and contradictions.

 

[Supersubes]

If you’re just starting out, then sell the neck sizer to another sucker, and buy a FL die. You’ll be doing it the right way, and your life will be easier.

 

[spife7980]

I would keep them for now until you figure out what’s what and just buy a separate sizer. A sizer is cheap enough.

The full on comp kit will allow you to tailor each little bit of your brass prep... but are you prepared to see what each little bit can effect and do you have a rifle good enough to see the result of those effects? If not then doing the body and neck separate with your comp kit instead of a full length just creates twice the number of pulls on the press for yourself to accomplish the same thing. If you’re loading on a progressive then it’s not even that.

 

[TheMammoth]

Mine leaves a noticeable amount of the neck untouched. It’s enough that I’m wondering if I shouldn’t send it back and get another.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Mine leaves a noticeable amount of the neck untouched. It’s enough that I’m wondering if I shouldn’t send it back and get another.

Give us a pic of it. Too large neck diameter in your chamber can compound what you are seeing.
If you are just neck sizing only, it makes it tough to set the die up right because most likely your case growth is not 100% the same.
Try this, run a pc of brass up into the die, then loosen the ring, screw the die sown until it contacts the shoulder of the case, do not force, stop when resistance is felt. Now you can adjust bushing float.

 

[Boatninja]

I would keep them for now until you figure out what’s what and just buy a separate sizer. A sizer is cheap enough.

The full on comp kit will allow you to tailor each little bit of your brass prep... but are you prepared to see what each little bit can effect and do you have a rifle good enough to see the result of those effects? If not then doing the body and neck separate with your comp kit instead of a full length just creates twice the number of pulls on the press for yourself to accomplish the same thing. If you’re loading on a progressive then it’s not even that.

I may be misunderstanding this, but doesn't full length sizing defeat the advantages of fire forming? I understand that if they are hard to chamber it may be necessary. also my current rifle may not be good enough to detect subtle differences but I have the basic beginnings that in the future I will probably have one. Even though I haven't done the tests to find a node I can see an improvement in accuracy, I suppose just from uniformity of charges.

 

[spife7980]

I may be misunderstanding this, but doesn't full length sizing defeat the advantages of fire forming? I understand that if they are hard to chamber it may be necessary. also my current rifle may not be good enough to detect subtle differences but I have the basic beginnings that in the future I will probably have one. Even though I haven't done the tests to find a node I can see an improvement in accuracy, I suppose just from uniformity of charges.

Fire forming takes virgin brass that could vary in many different ways from piece to piece (especially with cheap brass) and presses them into the chamber to iron them all out to an even baseline (hopefully). Once they are all that same size you can full length size them minimally (.001-.002" shoulder set back) to avoid chambering issues that happen with the neck sizing but without taking them all the way down to minimum specs and suffering the shorter brass life that goes along with that.

So let me ask you this, when neck sizing and they get hard to chamber are you then going to check each piece to make sure it chambers again? Are you only going to body size those select few that dont? What about the differences between those that chambered and those that didnt and got the body die treatment? Or are you going to just load them up, find they dont chamber, pull all the bullets and powder and primers and then give them a body die treatment and do the whole process over again?

Or would you rather full length size all of them the exact same way in a minimal manner so that each piece has been treated the exact same way, not only uniformity, but for reliability?

 

[Steel head]

I may be misunderstanding this, but doesn't full length sizing defeat the advantages of fire forming? I understand that if they are hard to chamber it may be necessary. also my current rifle may not be good enough to detect subtle differences but I have the basic beginnings that in the future I will probably have one. Even though I haven't done the tests to find a node I can see an improvement in accuracy, I suppose just from uniformity of charges.

.

I’ve never noticed a difference in accuracy from full length sizing compared to neck sizing.

Maybe in a bench rest gun you might see a difference.


The only reason I still often neck size only is because I’m lazy.

 

[Supersubes]

I may be misunderstanding this, but doesn't full length sizing defeat the advantages of fire forming? I understand that if they are hard to chamber it may be necessary. also my current rifle may not be good enough to detect subtle differences but I have the basic beginnings that in the future I will probably have one. Even though I haven't done the tests to find a node I can see an improvement in accuracy, I suppose just from uniformity of charges.

No, that’s a myth, especially if you’re shooting a factory rifle.

 

[cattleman99]

Fire forming takes virgin brass that could vary in many different ways from piece to piece (especially with cheap brass) and presses them into the chamber to iron them all out to an even baseline (hopefully). Once they are all that same size you can full length size them minimally (.001-.002" shoulder set back) to avoid chambering issues that happen with the neck sizing but without taking them all the way down to minimum specs and suffering the shorter brass life that goes along with that.

So let me ask you this, when neck sizing and they get hard to chamber are you then going to check each piece to make sure it chambers again? Are you only going to body size those select few that dont? What about the differences between those that chambered and those that didnt and got the body die treatment? Or are you going to just load them up, find they dont chamber, pull all the bullets and powder and primers and then give them a body die treatment and do the whole process over again?

Or would you rather full length size all of them the exact same way in a minimal manner so that each piece has been treated the exact same way, not only uniformity, but for reliability?

Or, you could get a bushing bump neck sizing die, and size the neck while setting the shoulder back, and not work the body of the brass every time. This allows you to avoid chambering issues as you've mentioned above.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I may be misunderstanding this, but doesn't full length sizing defeat the advantages of fire forming? I understand that if they are hard to chamber it may be necessary. also my current rifle may not be good enough to detect subtle differences but I have the basic beginnings that in the future I will probably have one. Even though I haven't done the tests to find a node I can see an improvement in accuracy, I suppose just from uniformity of charges.

Spife nailed yet again, a FL die cannot take brass back to factory specs. I doubt even a small base die will do it either.
In theory, what you are doing by neck sizing makes sense, uniform cases, but you will always run into a few unruly ones, here lies the problem.
If you FL size each time, now your cases expand some both in length and girth, why would controlled expansion not work every bit as good as your method?

 

[spife7980]

Or, you could get a bushing bump neck sizing die, and size the neck while setting the shoulder back, and not work the body of the brass every time. This allows you to avoid chambering issues as you've mentioned above.

When I was neck sizing it was always the base of the case right above the case head that was too large and gave me grief (clickers is a common enough term for it). Thats what has made me a Full Length Disciple. This is my testimonial.

The clickers can still happen if your full length dies are on the large end of the spec and our chamber is on the small side though (more so for wildcats and variants but still with saami stuff as well) which is why its so vital that you measure what is happening during the sizing process, no matter which process you choose to pursue.

 

[Milo 2.5]

When I was neck sizing it was always the base of the case right above the case head that was too large and gave me grief. Thats what has made me a Full Length Disciple. This is my testimonial.

No shit, until someone scratches their head with this crap, esp when it shows up after the 2nd sizing of brass.

 

[cattleman99]

When I was neck sizing it was always the base of the case right above the case head that was too large and gave me grief (clickers is a common enough term for it). Thats what has made me a Full Length Disciple. This is my testimonial.

The clickers can still happen if your full length dies are on the large end of the spec and our chamber is on the small side though which is why its so vital that you measure what is happening during the sizing process.

Very interesting. I have not yet had that issue when neck/bump sizing. I neck size and bump shoulders for two firings, then full length size for the third. I find that alternating does not work the brass excessively. I have not had any chambering issues as of now, and my current batch of brass is on its fifth firing.

 

[Supersubes]

Or, you could get a bushing bump neck sizing die, and size the neck while setting the shoulder back, and not work the body of the brass every time. This allows you to avoid chambering issues as you've mentioned above.

What spife and Milo said, and i’ll add that the body, especially down near the web of the case gets very little sizing to beigin with. Its a complete non-issue.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Very interesting. I have not yet had that issue when neck/bump sizing. I neck size and bump shoulders for two firings, then full length size for the third. I find that alternating does not work the brass excessively. I have not had any chambering issues as of now, and my current batch of brass is on its fifth firing.

In a game where consistency = accuracy, does every firing produce the same results?

 

[cattleman99]

In a game where consistency = accuracy, does every firing produce the same results?

For the most part, yes. I have an SD of under 5 regardless of how its sized, and the neck tension is consistent between processes. There is slight variation, but the load is more accurate then I am under match like conditions.

 

[spife7980]

Very interesting. I have not yet had that issue when neck/bump sizing. I neck size and bump shoulders for two firings, then full length size for the third. I find that alternating does not work the brass excessively. I have not had any chambering issues as of now, and my current batch of brass is on its fifth firing.

That full length on the third cycle is likely saving your hide but you could be fortunate to have brass and a chamber that match each other very well and you might never need to full length but you never know until you veer off that cliff. Its safer for a newby to stay on the inside edge going slow than to try and pass around the outside.


All that said, if you arent having issues then dont change it up, stick with what youre doing and enjoy the results because clearly you have something going for you.

 

[Supersubes]

Very interesting. I have not yet had that issue when neck/bump sizing. I neck size and bump shoulders for two firings, then full length size for the third. I find that alternating does not work the brass excessively. I have not had any chambering issues as of now, and my current batch of brass is on its fifth firing.

Why not just substitute the neck for FL every firing, so you don’t need to worry about the alternating sizing routine? Don’t say brass life, because that’s a non-issue. It will not affect brass life.

 

[Boatninja]

No, that’s a myth, especially if you’re shooting a factory rifle.

Current rifle is Mausingfield/Criterion/ Vortex/Magpul/6mm Creedmore and haven't fired any brass more than twice, so haven't had chambering issues. Just trying to absorb as much as possible....

 

[AIAW]

Very good info. I pretty much do what spife has mentioned throughout. I have been known to be in a hurry though and will run all of my "to be loaded" brass through the chamber and only load the ones that feel consistent. I know... it works though in a pinch.

I'll throw some love out there for reamer spec custom dies. Mmmm so good. At least for that particular chamber

The rifles I have running custom dies truly only need neck-sizing most of the time. If they don't, they are 100 percent identical in their needs. if they weren't I'd be looking for problems though after dropping that cash.

 

[Milo 2.5]

For the most part, yes. I have an SD of under 5 regardless of how its sized, and the neck tension is consistent between processes. There is slight variation, but the load is more accurate then I am under match like conditions.

Right, I was not trying to be a smartass, I just know I can be a creature of habit. Not getting into a story, but I watched a rifle and load of mine deteriorate over 4 outings before the light bulb came on.
In matches you cannot do it, but every outing, I pick a distance to shoot a group at, not 100 either, and gauge what I've done.

 

[Boatninja]

I would keep them for now until you figure out what’s what and just buy a separate sizer. A sizer is cheap enough.

The full on comp kit will allow you to tailor each little bit of your brass prep... but are you prepared to see what each little bit can effect and do you have a rifle good enough to see the result of those effects? If not then doing the body and neck separate with your comp kit instead of a full length just creates twice the number of pulls on the press for yourself to accomplish the same thing. If you’re loading on a progressive then it’s not even that.

Using comp kit, neck size first then body die or vice versa. I'm using my once fired brass for now until I get the basics, then go to virgin brass after I get a little more experience. It is starting to look like I need a faster bullet puller, HA!

 

[Anderson_A]

When I was neck sizing it was always the base of the case right above the case head that was too large and gave me grief (clickers is a common enough term for it). Thats what has made me a Full Length Disciple. This is my testimonial.

The clickers can still happen if your full length dies are on the large end of the spec and our chamber is on the small side though (more so for wildcats and variants but still with saami stuff as well) which is why its so vital that you measure what is happening during the sizing process, no matter which process you choose to pursue.

I didn’t hear it in the video nor anywhere else I’ve read on this subject but some of my dies change the shoulder diameter .007” I don’t use them and my Redding types s still reduces that dimension .004-.005”I don’t recall exactly so what is too much and what’s ideal I’ve been under the impression .002” reduction in every dimension. Would be ideal as that’s what I’ve been setting my shoulder back is that what I should hope for in a die chamber relationship?

 

[Supersubes]

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I didn’t hear it in the video nor anywhere else I’ve read on this subject but some of my dies change the shoulder diameter .007” I don’t use them and my Redding types s still reduces that dimension .004-.005”I don’t recall exactly so what is too much and what’s ideal I’ve been under the impression .002” reduction in every dimension. Would be ideal as that’s what I’ve been setting my shoulder back is that what I should hope for in a die chamber relationship?

The only way you’ll get consistent .002 in every dimension is with a custom die, or to buy chamber reamers spec’d off of your current dies. My guess is that there’d be no practical difference in using either of your dies, but the smaller of the two would probably produce more lengthening of the case after each sizing.

 

[spife7980]

I didn’t hear it in the video nor anywhere else I’ve read on this subject but some of my dies change the shoulder diameter .007” I don’t use them and my Redding types s still reduces that dimension .004-.005”I don’t recall exactly so what is too much and what’s ideal I’ve been under the impression .002” reduction in every dimension. Would be ideal as that’s what I’ve been setting my shoulder back is that what I should hope for in a die chamber relationship?

As subes said, if you want a certain spec for each dimension you will need to get some custom dies made.

Generally the .002 is just the dimension from the case head to the shoulder datum. The rest of it is what it is. The base usually get sized .001-.003, the shoulder diameter is .004 or so as you said, the .007 isnt a great match for your chamber in that one scenario.

 

[Anderson_A]

I understand I’m not necessarily worried about having the .002 all around more so I did not not what to look for before in terms of what is too much and what is not enough reduction I have been using the die I have that is better fitting but didn’t know if the .004-.005 was still too much and should I continue looking for a better fit or just call it good

 

[spife7980]

Personally, I would call it good.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Ok, so I jumped down the rabbit hole and am setting up to handload 6.5CM. It's been well over 30 years since I handloaded bottleneck rifle ammo.

Here's my dilemma. I have a significant pile of Hornady once-fired brass. Loaded factory rounds are pretty consistent at 0.290" on the top half of the neck. At the bottom, the neck is 0.001-0.002" thicker (0.291-0.292").

So, when I use a 0.288" bushing to size the entire neck, I end up with a tighter inside diameter at the base of the neck. I have a .264" pilot on my trimmer and that thing jams tight at the base of the neck on a fair number of cases.

Given the prevalence of Hornady brass in our sport, I can't be the first to deal with this. I really do not want to start turning the necks (I have the tool to do it) if there is another approach.

Thoughts?

 

[spife7980]

Ok, so I jumped down the rabbit hole and am setting up to handload 6.5CM. It's been well over 30 years since I handloaded bottleneck rifle ammo.

Here's my dilemma. I have a significant pile of Hornady once-fired brass. Loaded factory rounds are pretty consistent at 0.290" on the top half of the neck. At the bottom, the neck is 0.001-0.002" thicker (0.291-0.292").

So, when I use a 0.288" bushing to size the entire neck, I end up with a tighter inside diameter at the base of the neck. I have a .264" pilot on my trimmer and that thing jams tight at the base of the neck on a fair number of cases.

Given the prevalence of Hornady brass in our sport, I can't be the first to deal with this. I really do not want to start turning the necks (I have the tool to do it) if there is another approach.

Thoughts?

Put your expander mandrel ball back in the die and you should be fine.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Put your expander mandrel back in the die and you should be fine.

Thanks @spife7980. I see your username come up a lot here - thanks for the help you provide to the community.

I don't have a separately-sold mandrel (yet). All I have is the expander which came with the die (which I swapped out for the smaller decapping pin retainer). Will this suffice, at least to get started?

 

[spife7980]

Thanks @spife7980. I see your username come up a lot here - thanks for the help you provide to the community.

I don't have a separately-sold mandrel (yet). All I have is the expander which came with the die (which I swapped out for the smaller decapping pin retainer). Will this suffice, at least to get started?

Shoot, I said mandrel above, I meant ball.
Yes, see if that fixes your problems first.

 

[Steel head]

Ok, so I jumped down the rabbit hole and am setting up to handload 6.5CM. It's been well over 30 years since I handloaded bottleneck rifle ammo.

Here's my dilemma. I have a significant pile of Hornady once-fired brass. Loaded factory rounds are pretty consistent at 0.290" on the top half of the neck. At the bottom, the neck is 0.001-0.002" thicker (0.291-0.292").

So, when I use a 0.288" bushing to size the entire neck, I end up with a tighter inside diameter at the base of the neck. I have a .264" pilot on my trimmer and that thing jams tight at the base of the neck on a fair number of cases.

Given the prevalence of Hornady brass in our sport, I can't be the first to deal with this. I really do not want to start turning the necks (I have the tool to do it) if there is another approach.

Thoughts?

If your not turning your necks you pretty much always want to use an expander in a bushing die.