How rough is too rough?

[SUIScide]

I just picked up a Rem 700 SPS in 300 blackout. I'm looking to use it as a plinking/practice gun, maybe some deer hunting. As such I was planning on shooting a lot of cast bullets, but now I'm not sure that will work. The bore on this gun is really rough. You can easily see the chatter marks at the muzzle. It also picks up a huge amount of copper fouling. Sorry it doesn't show in the picture, but that is after one shot on a totally clean bore. I'm afraid it will lead like nobody's business.


Anyways I was wondering if anyone had some advice? Would fire lapping help this bore? Am I stuck with a lifetime of cleaning on this one?

 

[Lowlight]

Shoot it and stop trying to worry about what it looks like...

if it didn't shoot you'd have an argument for it, but if you haven't shot it you have no idea.

you can end up ruining a perfectly good barrel because it "looks rough" to you.

 

[Who Dat]

Most shooters complain about their weapons not grouping well, give it a chance and reload for it and see how well it does down range before lapping the barrel. Once you do and it does not go right you will be purchasing another barrel. Have at it!

 

[Temp9]

Shoot it and stop trying to worry about what it looks like...

if it didn't shoot you'd have an argument for it, but if you haven't shot it you have no idea.

you can end up ruining a perfectly good barrel because it "looks rough" to you.

This. I've seen some ugly barrels shoot great, and some purdy barrels shoot like shit.

 

[The_FNG]

I'm no cast bullet specialist, but isn't it speed, and not bore finish, that leads a bore?

 

[jbell]

How many rounds on the barrel? If it shoots well when clean and then deteriorates in short order then the rough barrel and copper fouling could be to blame. If that is the case I would use David Tubbs bore treatment system on it. But as stated above don't make preconceived ideas about the barrel let the gun tell you what it needs.

 

[AvsFan]

Well, how does it shoot? If it shoots well, I wouldn't worry about it...for instance, I inherited my Grandpa's 1903A3 when he passed. It's an original Remington with a 10 43 barrel that looks like a sewer pipe w/pits, gouges, lot's of muzzle wear, etc. It's one of the most accurate rifles I have - it easily out shoots my brand new RRA NM AR (while using irons on both). You can't always judge a book by it's cover

 

[SUIScide]

Well I put a few rounds through during sight in this evening, five for sight in and then a five shot group. All with Remington factory 220 SMK subs (that puts me down to my last two boxes). It shot plenty good for leaning out my truck window, not exactly a steady rest. I'm excited to try this with powders a little faster than 1680, like red dot or unique, since I don't have to worry about semi auto function. I'm also optimistic that with the one in seven twist it will stabilize the 240 SMK, the 247 NOE cast should be a no brainer as it's stable in my 8" twist AR. I guess I'll see how it goes with more rounds and with cast. FNG, this round got me interested in casting and the current run on bullets sealed the deal. I've just started dabbling with cast and don't know a whole lot about leading other than people talk about it like it was cancer. From what I gather it comes about from speed (or lack thereof), lube problems, bore finish, bore diameter, and the change of diameter down the bore. At subsonic velocities leading shouldn't be much of a problem, but I'm not sure with the finish I'm this one. I'll just give it a go and see how it works

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Bore finish does matter when shooting cast. If it lays down the copper it will lay down the lead. Casting your own lead bullets is an artform if done properly. I am well versed in casting lead bullets with plenty of experience. Quite frankly I don't have time to fart around with it, and I know how to do it right. It isn't as easy as casting sinkers and jigheads. Even at the prices bullets are commanding today, I doubt I will ever shoot another cast bullet. You could try paper patching, even more time consuming.

 

[SUIScide]

It can be pretty slow at work sometimes so ill keep trying the cast. I know it sure is easy to get some cheap pistol bullets for plinking. I tried this gun with a case full of trail boss (6.0 gr) and a Sierra 100 gr HP. Holy smoke that thing was quiet! This rifle is worth it for that one load

 

[Who Dat]

Do not forget gas checks if you are not already, but lead is lead unless you are swagging your own bullets.

 

[physhphude]

My remington 700 had a similar barrel. Super rough. While it might not hurt the accuracy, It's a pain to clean the barrel with such a rough bore, you could see streaks of copper down the bore after just a couple of shots.

What I did was run the tubb fire lapping kit down the bore, and by the time it was done, it cleaned up with fewer than 10 patches.

In the end, the rifle shot sub moa to 700 yards.

 

[SUIScide]

I don't think gas checks and suppressor a mix. Also it's my understanding that they aren't needed for subsonic velocities. I plan toshot a full hundred rounds of jacketed bullets before i get serious with the cast and see where i am then (might rebarrel it to 223 who knows). It seems that the 240's will stabilize in this rifle. I'm shooting them with 6.1 grains of unique. The 110's with 6.0 grains of trail boss were good to 50 yards then dropped like a rock, must need a little more powder although 6.0 makes for a pretty full case.

 

[SUIScide]

Bore finish does matter when shooting cast. If it lays down the copper it will lay down the lead. Casting your own lead bullets is an artform if done properly. I am well versed in casting lead bullets with plenty of experience. Quite frankly I don't have time to fart around with it, and I know how to do it right. It isn't as easy as casting sinkers and jigheads. Even at the prices bullets are commanding today, I doubt I will ever shoot another cast bullet. You could try paper patching, even more time consuming.

The leading is quite remarkable. In less than 20 rounds the accuracy goes from fair to bullets hitting the target sideways. I'm sure I don't know the "art of the cast bullet" but at this low velocity I don't think there should be this much leading. I'm going to try powder coating, hopefully that will help. Jacketed bullets shoot great (at least a little sweets will soak out the copper)

 

[Delta4-3]

I cast a lot of bullets for .300 blk and shoot them a lot. Here's what you do. Cast 10 bullets and lube them. Now roll them in powdered jewelers rouge. Load and shoot. Clean between each two or three shots. Your bore will look shiny as glass and most likely shoot a lot better. I don't use gas checks until I get up to 1300fps or so. Don't cast to soft, and don't cast too hard.

 

[SUIScide]

Sounds like homebrew fire lapping.... I like it!

 

[dinc]

What alloy are you casting? Generally the faster your shooting, the harder an alloy you'll need to reduce leading. Also for a cast slug as small as .308 it generally has to be fairly hard to get a grip on the rifling. As Delta alluded to, you need to match the alloy to the task. For rifle work I have gotten away with water-drop hardened wheel weights but usually had better results with something harder like linotype. A rifle specific lube will also be needed. Check out the rants over at CastBoolits.com.

 

[Rem7targetactical]

Tubb Final Finish Bore Lapping System 308 Cal 7.62mm
^^^^^^^^^^Click here ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[SUIScide]

Dinc. I've been using wheel weights. Haven't played with the alloy any. I was hoping that shooting subsonic it wouldn't need to be too hard, but I may need to try with some harder alloy. The rage on cast boolits is to use powder coating, I think I'll try that next, then play with the alloy, and then fire lap. I'm pretty sure the last thing I try will be what works!

 

[SUIScide]

I've used LLA and beeswax with Vaseline for lube. Again I was hoping that with subsonic velocities lube wouldn't be important (I always seem to get into trouble when I start thinking though....)

 

[SUIScide]

Well I decided to do the Tubbs fire lap thing to this rifle. I thought if it ruined it I would have a good reason to build it into something better. The fire lap process was a real pain, but I got it done last week while the wife and kids were out of town (she doesn't know there are now fifty, gritty 175 gn SMKs in the ground off the back porch). Took some before and after groups with 125 gn TNTs and lil gun powder. Both groups are ten shots off sandbags, fired fast, at same range but different days.

There's the before group.


Here's the after group. The rifle actually shot about six inches high after the process. I expected it to shot lower.
I also shot some cast loads and got an actual group without any leading, but I need to shot some more to reach a real conclusion. So far it looks like fire lapping really helped this rifle