How to begin, What to expect?

[jklinstein]

I've shot rifles for decades, and I've done a fair bit of reading on marksmanship (which I've tried to apply). Most of my shooting has been inside 200 yards, and I'm finally looking at spending some time behind my .308 at increased distances. I'm looking for recommendations/advice on how to proceed, and what accuracy/limitations I should expect with my hardware. Here's my setup:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Remington 700 PSS[*]Leupold 10x Ultra[*]Federal Gold Medal Match .308 168gr Sierra Matchking BTHP[/list]
Of course I'm the biggest variable in this game, so my plan is to start at 200 yards and mix in a lot of dry firing. As I come up to speed, what sort of practical range limits should I have in mind given my hardware?

Thanks
Jacob

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

Your limit is the distance the bullet begins to fly erratically and tumble. I had equipment like yours and was quite successful with it, shooting in 1000 yard competitions. I never thought I was saddled with equipment that could not serve the need. What you need to know however is that you don't know. What I mean by that is you perceive now that you know how to shoot but that LR is somehow different than what you are doing now to hit targets at closer distances. There's nothing different; but, thing is, at relatively short distances, like the one where you're going to start your journey, you could do most everything wrong and still hit the target. That's because the angular errors, which you undoubtedly are producing, if you have had no formal marksmanship training, are masked at such a short distance. If it were not so shooters like you could take it to the long line and compete right off the bat.

So, before you just take your gear out on the road without a map and compass, which is likely to just get you lost, no matter what effort you put into it, get some basic marksmanship training. Get training which covers: the principles, prone position building, wind and weather effects, zeroing, external ballistics, and shooter/target analysis. Work on perfecting your position. This will help you develop correct muscle memory from the start, the key to consistency needed at LR.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

Jacob,

Welcome to the 'Hide!

Check out the online training on this forum. It is very valuable, especially when combined with good face to face training.

You can practice all the fundamentals at 100 yards, so don't sweat it if you only have 200 yards to work with.

Good luck!

 

[jklinstein]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

Sterling Shooter,

Thanks for your reply, it IS quite encouraging. I appreciate the advantage of formal training. As soon as I reach my informally trained limitations I will look for training instead of wasting powder & lead.

Jacob

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jklinstein</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling Shooter,

Thanks for your reply, it IS quite encouraging. I appreciate the advantage of formal training. As soon as I reach my informally trained limitations I will look for training instead of wasting powder & lead.

Jacob </div></div>

Going at it as you are, you might want to purchase a box of MR-31 targets. These are 600 yard military decimal targets reduced for 100 yard shooting. Shooting perfect scores with high X counts is the objective. With these targets you will see your progress in meaningful terms; and, you will also see your errors, which you can address through shooter/target analysis. Do not begin shooting these targets with a bipod, instead, shoot from unsupported prone or with a loop sling if you understand how to use it. With or without sling, the position built without the bipod will force a proper position if good results are what you are seeking. Scores of 97% or better indicate you know something about good shooting and that you can be competitive at the long line.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

I agree with SS 100%

Except to say, don't buy full MR31 targets, get the MR31C (repair center). They have all the scoring rings but are cheaper.

For example, National Target Company has MR31 targets for $43 per hundred. The MR31Cs are $11 per hundred, also meaning shipping will be less.

The MR31s just give you more paper you don't need.

 

[Graham]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

OP, a .308 is fine. Switch to 175gr SMKs when you get beyond 700. Hopefully your scope is not one of the ones made with a duplex reticle, because you will need the Mil dot version. Other than that, if the rifle shoots 1 MOA and the scope tracks then you're in business.

Are you intending to shoot NRA hi-power matches or tactical precision rifle matches? For our game you will need a bi-pod, because perfect scores with high X counts is not the objective. Hitting targets with the first shot, regardless of conditions, on demand and under time constraints is key. The ability to read the wind and knowing the performance of your equipment are two of the biggest variables.

Except for trigger control and finding NPA, positional shooting has little in common with shooting off a bi-pod (even then, NPA is derived differently). They are two different skill sets. You already know whether or not you need better training in the fundamentals, so there's no need to waste ammo to find that out. Training to shoot well from position, and to properly use a sling, is time best spent with a knowledgeable instructor.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For our game you will need a bi-pod, because perfect scores with high X counts is not the objective........Except for trigger control and finding a NPA, positional shooting has little in common with shooting off a bi-pod</div></div>

You need to learn to crawl before you start walking. The un-supported, looped sling positions as mentioned by SS gives you the fundamentals, positions, and natural point of aim, using bones support instead of muscles. Then you can better take advantage of the bipod as you progress.

I'll go one step farther then SS and recommend starting NRA or ISU small bore position shooting first. You're going to be much farther ahead if you can clean the ISU 50 meter targts in an English Match (prone) first before venture into Precision LR Rifle shooting.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You already know whether or not you need better training in the fundamentals, there's no need to waste ammo to find that out.</div></div>

This is true, and I'll add, by getting training FIRST, you lessen the training time wasted by getting rid of bad habbits you pick up while going at it alone. It takes less time to Learn something if you don't have to un-learn something else first.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

As Kraig alluded, smallbore shooting would assure you are exposed to everything important to good shooting. Also, if I was soliciting advice as you are, I would seek it from those who indeed know how to do it, like Kraig. There are as many opinions here as there are contributors, still it's surprising when there is divergence of opinion on matters of settled science. One of these matters is regarding the fundamentals of marksmanship. It does not matter what form of competition you are contemplating, practicing the fundamentals will always be part of your training, even after they are mastered.

 

[Graham]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You need to learn to crawl before you start walking.</div></div>Agreed. But I am saying that shooting from a bi-pod is the crawling part.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll go one step farther then SS and recommend starting NRA or ISU small bore position shooting first. You're going to be much farther ahead if you can clean the ISU 50 meter targts in an English Match (prone) first before venture into Precision LR Rifle shooting.</div></div>No argument there: If everyone was willing to invest the time to learn proper fundamentals with that kind of dedication the skill level of the average shooter in the sport would increase dramatically. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, if I was soliciting advice as you are, I would seek it from those who indeed know how to do it, like Kraig.</div></div>I, too, would take Kraig's advice at any time. I had the pleasure of meeting him at the Sniper's Hide Cup this year. He didn't shoot the match, but he was an RO - and a good one. That's why I asked: OP, are you interested in shooting smallbore, NRA hi-power/postional NRA stuff, or the kind of tactical precision rifle shooting that I do? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are as many opinions here as there are contributors, still it's surprising when there is divergence of opinion on matters of settled science.</div></div>I would be surprised if there wasn't more agreement in this Thread than there is divergence of opinion. That said, I fear that your 'matters of settled science' argument will (again) draw fire from the big boys of our sport as unsustainable.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

<span style="font-weight: bold">settled science</span>

Hasn't change since Col Colonel Macnab produced a marksmanship program at the request of General Pershing.

As a side not, Col. Alexander J Macnab was awarded the Army Distinguished Service Medal for the developing the program.

From the DSM citation:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Colonel Macnab installed an extensive system of target ranges in France and perfected methods for the training of marksmen, personally supervising the instruction of 200,000 Infantry replacements. As a member of the Training Section he applied his methods to the instruction of the Infantry of the American Expeditionary Forces in positions of great responsibility.</div></div>

To those who don't know, the program developed by Col Macnab is nothing more then what we call today "The Small Arms Firing School" provided by the Civilian Marksmanship Program per order of Congress in their Charter.

Don't get hung up on it being High Power Shooting, that's not what the SAFS is about, its about <span style="font-weight: bold">settled science</span>.

This is the first time I used that term. What settled science is, is nothing more the Basic Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship.

It's required whether you shoot High Power, Small Bore, Three Gun, Precision LR Rifle, or International Free Rifle.

The Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship is a necessary starting point for any shooter, regardless of what venue he/she wishes to presue.

There is no more demanding rifle shooting venue the International Rifle Shooting.

I do not believe any book will replace tuterage of a good coach, but a good guide for one wanting "pure fundamentals" I would highly recommend the "AMU INTERNATIONAL RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP GUIDE" sold by the CMP for a grand total of $6.95.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm an old has been, at 65 I doubt I am phyically fit to be comeptitive in LR PR as fired in the SHC but I will relate, when I was heavy into Long Range 1000 yard shooting, I'd have periods of my shooting going south, if you shoot any time at all your shooting will go south, simply because we drift away from the Fundamentals.

When my scores suffered, I'd dig out my H&R 5200 (Winchester 52 Clone) and shoot english matches. I wouldn't touch my Model 70 1000 yard rifle until I was back to cleaning the English Match with my 5200.

English matches are won and lost by X-count, so cleaning the targets doesn't mean you can win an International Match, but it does mean you've reverted back to the fundalmentals.

 

[jklinstein]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

Thank you for the MR-31 & MR31C target recommendations. If I understand the recommendation correctly (<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">starting NRA or ISU small bore position shooting first. You're going to be much farther ahead if you can clean the ISU 50 meter targts in an English Match (prone) first before venture into Precision LR Rifle shooting</span></span>) I will plan on beginning with a .22lr and put in time working on the prone position at 50m.

For now, I'd be more interested in the tactical precision rifle matches than the NRA high-power rifle matches. The rifle currently has a bipod and no sling, so I have to make a choice about which setup I want to work with initially, but I recognize the benefit of strapping up. And to answer another question - the Leupold Ultra has the etched mil-dot reticle (with 1/4 MOA M1 windage & elevation knobs).

That's another thing I'll be learning to use effectively.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

No sir, you don't have to make a choice. I've not, nor have I see anyone else, say forgo your goal of tactical shooting or your choice of rifle set up.

Nor am I saying you need a high quality small bore rifle. What I am saying is not to discount 22 shooting. What I'm and I think SS is saying, is work on positions and fundamentals without the aid of a bipod. What it will do, is improve your shooting when you do start using the bipod.

Now I'll issue my "un-solisted" opinion. Get a good quality 22 bolt action rifle. I'd recommend iron sights first, but a 4X scope would work. English matches are fired at 50 Meters, but you can also do it at 50Ft with ISU or NRA 50 ft targets. This would make it easier to practice.

The difference between the NRA and ISU targets, the 10 ring on the NRA target is about the size of a 22 round. The ISU target calls that a 9 ring and puts a dot in the center for the 10 ring.

Get to where you can clean the targets in prone. After that, sight your 308 (or what ever caliber you choose) at 50 ft and practice a bit with that. (Simular to the Dot Drills you see discussed on the SH).

After you get comfortable, and can successfully shoot your heavy rifle on these targets, go to the MR 31 at 100 yards, When you can keep ALL your shots in the 9 right, put on your Bipod and use it in conjunction of fundamentals you've aquired without the bipod, and see how much better you'll be.

Again no one is trying to sell you on high power, its not for everyone, I agree. What we are preaching is Basic Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship, witch is going to be critical if you plan on shooting little 6-8" steel diamonds up to and past 1000 yards as is done in LRPR Shooting as fired in the recient SHC.

 

[jklinstein]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now I'll issue my "un-solisted" opinion. Get a good quality 22 bolt action rifle. I'd recommend iron sights first, but a 4X scope would work. English matches are fired at 50 Meters, but you can also do it at 50Ft with ISU or NRA 50 ft targets. This would make it easier to practice.
</div></div>
KraigWY,
The iron sights are a problem because I have a lot of astigmatism. the higher sight plane (above the buttstock) of a scoped rifle makes the astigmatism much less of a problem.
I don't have any bolt .22's. After dropping $500 for .308 ammunition, and $400 for a spotting scope, I'm going to have to make do with what I have for .22lr rifles.Here's what I have:

1. Remington 552 Speedmaster with 2x scope. The scope has a post and crosshair. <span style="text-decoration: underline">I am thinking of using this because it has the traditional "grip" which is more similar to the .308 stock.</span>
2. Ruger 10/22 with Boyd's thumbhole stock, a whistle-pig barrel, and a 2-9x scope (with finger-click adjustments).
3. Ruger 10/22 Compact (open sights).

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

In CMP Rimfire Sporter matches I've see all sorts of 22 rifles being used sucessfully.

I wouldn't recommend buying another 22, I'd use what you have.

That's why I like CMP Rimfire Sporter Shooting, it was desigend for 22s just about everyone has stuck away in their closet.

Also don't discount dry firing with you 308 set up. Trigger control is the most critical of all the fundamentals and is extremely critical in LRPR shooting at those little targets at distance.

Nothing teaches trigger control likd dryfiring offhand (standing).

Get a good NPA, start pulling (squeezing) the trigger as your wobble passes over the target, as it moves off the target stop pulling but hold what you have, start again as your wobble brings you back to the target. Keep doing this until you get the supprised break.

Dryfiring is the best training you can do, and it doesn't cost a penny.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

I've shot seriously in several disciplines, and the one thing that's the same across them is the need for repetitive practice. You don't just practice until you can do it right, you keep on practicing until you can't do it wrong (i.e. doing it wrong requires deliberate concentration). That's not my own line, I picked it up from someone else here a long time ago.

In each of the disciplines, a good .22lr trainer, with the same basic type of support and sighting systems as my primary C/F implement, has proven invaluable. The .22lr makes the kind of trigger time that's needed become both affordable and physically sustainable. Folks may shrug off recoil, but simply put, it's fatiguing; and that fatigue degrades the quality of the practice, becoming an undeniable distraction.

Folks choose all sorts of .22lr trainers, and some feel it's necessary to closely duplicate the C/F platform, and/or to invest heavily in absolute accuracy. I don't think either is mandatory, and advise instead in favor of simplicity, reliability, and consistent performance as being the real needs in a good trainer. If you must get spendy, put your investment into goodly sized lots of reliable ammo, to keep that part of the equation as consistent as possible. Remember, it's not so much about how small it shoots, as it's whether or not it shoots the same size each time. We're trying to keep the variables down to just one, just the shooter.

If you don't handload, get ready to. Folks like to say it's cheaper, and it is per unit shot, but it's not that much cheaper, because you'll be able to afford shooting more.

The real value to handloading is in being able to find and reproduce a consistent load that achieves the rest or the equipment's full capabilities. Only then can you be sure that the grand majority of the inconsistency actually reflects your own performance. That is the circumstance under which real learning is best achieved.

Greg

 

[Graham]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

It might not be an exaggeration to say that the only thing completely 'settled' about marksmanship is that it involves the practice of manipulating the trigger without disturbing the alignment of the sights.

Kraig (and Greg), an interesting recent article that touches on current military marksmanship issues:
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/challenges-imperiling-our-marksmanship-standards

And a study from last year:
http://www.cse.ucla.edu/products/reports/R783.pdf

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

I've read them. The problem is that the army no longer follows the guidence of Col Macnab.

Long story but that is the reason I turned in my retirement papers before I should have.

But as to Macnab,

Qualification Percents before adopting his program:

Expert 5%
Sharpshooter 10%
Marksman 15%
Non quals 70%

After adopting Macnab's program of instruction

Expert 25%
Sharpshooter 40%
Marksman 30%
Non Quals 5%

But the real problem is the army don't care, they lowers the standards ranges and qualifications.

When I was company commander (HHS 207th IN GRP, AK NG) I made shooters go to the KD range firing the M16A1 on the combat course. (100, 200, 300, 400 yards) I then took them to the 300 meter pop up range (which was suppose to be "record fire" at the time) and the qualification scores improved dramaticly. I didn't have any non quals because I provide the possible non qual with some one on one coaching.

Going back to the "original topic", nothing beats a good coach. This is personal to me. In 2003 my wife was activated for deployment. I went to Benning to be with her in the pre deployment train up and processing.

My wife had broken her back when she came off a colt in '99 and she didn't think she would be able to qualify since they required prone shooting.

I'm a student of Capt Edward Crossman when it comes to shooting, as to the point he says there are few handy caps that can't be over come by a good coach.

I contacted the cadre and explained my (her) problem, She was assigned an individual who worked with her getting her in a comfortable, prone position allowing her to fire export.

That's another problem, too many soldiers wont admit they have a problem and seek assistanace. (my wife is one, she wouldn't have said a thing). There are assests out there we just need to admit we need help and seek it.

It's also the commanders fault. To many just wont take the time to get involved. They just care about the numbers the IG checks, not whether the soldier can shoot or not.

Take the case about where I ran the qualification of my company. I had 287 people in total. But when it came to qualification I took the time to personaly check everyone on the zero range before I let them move to qualification.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

Graham, I have just read the first reference, and will read the second . I want to thank you especially for bringing these to our attention.

This subject is sufficiently dear to my heart that I was personally driven to establish the Department of NJ Marine Corps League Competitive Shooting Program back in the early 1990's. If you've ever shot in the Carlos Hathcock match, you're a beneficiary of that program. I may not mention my association in that program much these days, but it still gives me immense satisfaction that I was instrumental in its inception.

'Every Marine a Rifleman' is simple phrase which has always had an integral meaning for me. I went into the Corps as an NRA Smallbore Expert Rifleman, and came out as a better one who personally grasped the imperative extant in 'Every Marine a Rifleman'. There's more to being a Marine than just combat musketry, but the term 'Marine Rifleman' describes a definitive attribute. You cannot separate the two without redefining each.

We live in times when even such definitive attributes face a hard regimen of erosive stresses. Like many, I am moved to accept necessary change, but there are still a few principles upon which I will resist such change. 'Every Marine a Rifleman' is one such principle.

Greg

 

[kraigWY]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

As a US Army Paratrooper, I hate to admit this, but its true.

The Marines DO put more effert into marksmanship then the army, and on the average I'll admit the Marine is a better rifleman then the Army Soldier.

Don't tell anyone I said that.

Sure there are exceptions but it sure isn't the Army's fault. The exception is do to the individual, not the Army.

 

[jklinstein]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

I spent a few hours at the range on Sunday. All shooting was done from the bench, resting the stock on a bag. Starting with the Remington Speedmaster (with OLD 2x scope), I signted in and checked 2 types of ammunition. First was the Remington Bulk Golden Bullet. At 50 yards, 10 rounds, I got a 4" spread with no concentration or pattern. Then I used CCI mini-mag and got a group 3" high x 1" wide. So I have to work on the vertical stringing, and I might switch to a .22 with a better scope.

Then I pulled out the .308 and shot 5 rounds at 100 yards, and another 5 at 200 yards. I got about an inch and a half group at 100 yds, and about 3-4" at 200.

My next steps are to spend more time with the .22lr, and also to get a better rest so I can see what the .308 is capable of doing. Then it will be .22 at the range, and .308 in the living room (dry firing).

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

Reading your last post was frustrating. It reminded me of the guy who pulled to the curb to ask for directions. The guy was told by the knowledgeable town folk to turn left at the first stop light. The guy drove off but was seen turning right at the first stop light.

The only thing that can be surmised by your last post is that you appear to want to learn but don't know how to go about it. One place to start might be analysis of the vertical group. It could have something to do with equipment but is most likely about position inconsistency: butt to shoulder, stock-weld pressure, changing sight alignment, low gun position, follow through, or left elbow placement, assuming you're right eye dominant. If you can't distinguish or isolate the source of error you can direct attention to just making all contact with the gun and ground consistent. At any rate, I hope you will stay interested in marksmanship; however, without some discipline, it may not have the out come you are expecting. Observation is not enough. If you're not going to get a coach you will need to be the one to resolve errors. The solution is not a better rest but a better position. The solution is not better equipment but getting the best out of what you've got. Unless the scope is broken or is not parallax free at the distance you are shooting at it should work for what you need from it. So get back to the range and pick up where you left off, working to produce better groups with the .22. And this time think about it.

 

[eracer]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

You must know the inherent accuracy of the weapon/cartridge combo before drawing any conclusions about operator variables.

Document zero-wind accuracy from a full bench-rest position, using several types of ammo. A mechanical trigger-pull device is ideal, but not absolutely necessary.

A scope with proper parallax adjustment is a must, as is a properly mounted and leveled scope.

Saying that one is shooting 4" groups informs one of absolutely nothing without known baseline performance data.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

We start with an assumption. The assumption is the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed. So, unless the rifle and/or ammunition is defective, a shooter does not need to first understand the capability of the rifle. On the other hand, with a match conditioned rifle the shooter can indeed conclude the likely source of error has something to do with shooter consistency, or proper sight adjustment.

 

[jklinstein]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You must know the inherent accuracy of the weapon/cartridge combo before drawing any conclusions about operator variables.

Document zero-wind accuracy from a full bench-rest position, using several types of ammo. A mechanical trigger-pull device is ideal, but not absolutely necessary.
</div></div>
That was my primary purpose - determining the accuracy of this .22 rifle with 2 types of ammunition. I found improvement with the CCI, but it's obvious my rest needs to be improved. I just purchased a large bag of rice that I'm converting into a shooting rest (I'll probably also make up some sandbags and see which ones work better).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A scope with proper parallax adjustment is a must, as is a properly mounted and leveled scope.

Saying that one is shooting 4" groups informs one of absolutely nothing without known baseline performance data. </div></div>
The scope is a problem. It's a 40 year old Bushnell 2.5x with a post and cross-hairs reticle. Very small movements of the head/eye result in the cross-hairs moving with respect to the post (up/down and sideways). I either have to re-scope the rifle, or switch to the thumbhole grip Ruger 10/22. Astigmatism makes iron sights a bad option.

 

[jklinstein]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We start with an assumption. The assumption is the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed. So, unless the rifle and/or ammunition is defective, a shooter does not need to first understand the capability of the rifle. On the other hand, with a match conditioned rifle the shooter can indeed conclude the likely source of error has something to do with shooter consistency, or proper sight adjustment. </div></div>
I agree that most of the error has to do with me, but I did discover 2 other sources of error with the .22 (scope and ammunition, as noted in my previous post). With the .308 I'm 95% confident that anything over 1 MOA is purely my fault.

 

[longguntoter]

Re: How to begin, What to expect?

Well, I'm no "pro super sniper", but it seems to me that you should be good to go out to about 600 yards or so with that set up.