When I watch videos of shooters I notice that the rifle appears to recoil straight back with no muzzle jump. When I shoot I have a muzzle verticle jump and some lateral movement. This requires me to have to reposition the rifle and even the bi-pod. Any help would be appreciated.
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Advanced Marksmanship How to control/manage muzzle jump
- Thread starter stradibarrius
- Start date
You mean like this?
For me it’s a mix of fundamentals and rifle setup.
Getting the cheek and butt pad just right and abandoning the concept of getting my scope as close to the bore of the rifle helps me.
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yes exactly, i have tried several shooting positions. Directly behind th rifle, slightly angled. I have tried moving the butt plate up to get th bore line more in a straight line with my shoulder. It must be the way I'm setting up , my technique.
The cheapest quality instruction you’ll find Is the online training Lowlight does here.
those vids and discussions are truly awesome.
It’s not just rifle set up or technique, it’s a combination of both.
I found by learning technique find my perfect rifle fit got a lot easier.
I did three videos on recoil forces that can be found at the top of the list here:
science of recoil - YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com
More than likely you're tensing your shoulder or placing the stock against a particularly had part, like your shoulder blade. Doing so exacerbates any issues you have in positioning and technique.
Usually position is the issue, but muzzle jump can be caused by other factors. Is there a compensator? Suppressor? Strait Barrel?
You can also try building a soft sled to rest the rifle in rather than bipod use. We built rifle rests out of wire hangers through sleeping mats and covered in duct tape for school use. Cup them in a U shape and attach to a solid surface (heavy rucksack) for extra stability. If the rifle still jumps, it's probably the rifle...
You can also try building a soft sled to rest the rifle in rather than bipod use. We built rifle rests out of wire hangers through sleeping mats and covered in duct tape for school use. Cup them in a U shape and attach to a solid surface (heavy rucksack) for extra stability. If the rifle still jumps, it's probably the rifle...
I am pretty sure it's my technique. It happens with my TRG22-308 with a brake and my Savage LRP12- 6.5 creedmoor, no brake.
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This is exactly my problem! the 3 videos i'm hoping will resolve my "jump". The first video had the the most helpful information for ME and my problem. These are worth watching more than once. Thank you!!!!I did three videos on recoil forces that can be found at the top of the list here:
science of recoil - YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
More than likely you're tensing your shoulder or placing the stock against a particularly had part, like your shoulder blade. Doing so exacerbates any issues you have in positioning and technique.
1. Heavy gun
2. small caliber
3. muzzle brake
You will have issues if you don’t have at least two of the three that I listed. Technique helps but will only help so much. It’s physics
@stradibarrius describe the rifle you are shooting.
2. small caliber
3. muzzle brake
You will have issues if you don’t have at least two of the three that I listed. Technique helps but will only help so much. It’s physics
@stradibarrius describe the rifle you are shooting.
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I have noticed even some skilled shooters shooting 50BMG with almost no muzzle jump. a 308 or 6.5 creedmoor are not large cailbers and bothe guns are relatively heavy
Thanks for your input!
Thanks for your input!
Do you have a muzzle brake? Are you shooting prone?
50bmg are very heavy and have muzzle brakes. They push back strongly. They do not snap like smaller rifles. Different animal.
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You can most certainly shoot without a brake and have the rifle come straight back. It is, in fact, the best way to learn to manage recoil and to get straight behind the gun.
For the longest time I shot an unbraked Howa 1500 varmint in 308 w/o a brake. I learned to manage recoil with that thing, believe you me.
I believe you. Shooting prone it’s possible with good technique. Shooting seated at a bench it’s a lot tougher. The OP hasn’t answered what or how he is shooting yet.
Most videos that teach shooting position seems to show only examples of guys shooting rifles with brakes and they are always prone. Guys starting out may not realize the difference. That’s where I was going with that.
I'm the OP and it happens in prone and seated at the bench. The TRG22 has a brake the LRP12, 6.5 creedmoor does not have a brake.
Yeah I cant help you there. A braked rifle in the prone shouldn't be an issue and the LRP 12 is muzzle heavy for sure. I doubt anyone can help you here. You would need someone to shoot with you.
Actually, a lot of people with analytical minds can teach themselves how to shoot correctly, given access to good information.
I have had very little formal training (most of it in clay shooting, very little in rifle and pistol) but am a voracious student and I know how to methodically think through and solve a problem.
I have had very little formal training (most of it in clay shooting, very little in rifle and pistol) but am a voracious student and I know how to methodically think through and solve a problem.
Brake or no brake. Bullet goes one way, rifle goes the other.
If anything else happens, it’s you.
Brakes just lessen the amount of proper technique needed.
If anything else happens, it’s you.
Brakes just lessen the amount of proper technique needed.
A good, dense rear bag is a great help. It keeps the rifle from sitting down and forces the recoil energy straight back so you can catch it.
Recoil management is a mix of 1) soft dead weight behind the rifle, 2) position, and 3) hand grip pulling the rifle back. In that order primarily.
1) If the rifle bounces off a stiff body, its gonna jump. Its the difference between the bounce of a dead blow hammer and ball peen hammer. Bone and tense muscles are the factors there.
2) if your connection to the rifle is askew, or you are pushing the rifle any direction, then the recoil isn't straight back. Recoil energy is going to be redirected where the rifle is directed.
3) a little rearward tension on the rifle keeps the recoil aimed rearward, and maximizes the amount of recoil absorbed by your floppy, almost lifeless corpse, as you lay there.
Recoil management is a mix of 1) soft dead weight behind the rifle, 2) position, and 3) hand grip pulling the rifle back. In that order primarily.
1) If the rifle bounces off a stiff body, its gonna jump. Its the difference between the bounce of a dead blow hammer and ball peen hammer. Bone and tense muscles are the factors there.
2) if your connection to the rifle is askew, or you are pushing the rifle any direction, then the recoil isn't straight back. Recoil energy is going to be redirected where the rifle is directed.
3) a little rearward tension on the rifle keeps the recoil aimed rearward, and maximizes the amount of recoil absorbed by your floppy, almost lifeless corpse, as you lay there.
When a shooter loads the bipod, he's doing what you describe in #3 ?
Also, what do you think of "Limb-Savers" ? That would be your #1 above while being in-line with the rifle.
Usefull or a gimmick ?
Great thread
Attachments
I have one that I had used to increaseLOP on another rifle. I might give it a try since there is no modifications required.
I did three videos on recoil forces that can be found at the top of the list here:
science of recoil - YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
More than likely you're tensing your shoulder or placing the stock against a particularly had part, like your shoulder blade. Doing so exacerbates any issues you have in positioning and technique.
These videos are awesome. Thank you for this.
Magpul ctr type stocks give me hell by sliding down the rear bag / rest.
I made a rest to mitigate that but version 1 tips back.
My front rest is working well, steady no bounce, light.
Need to attach a slick bottom surface as it is too grippy.
This is for bench rest load testing and have a lot of ar's in the family
all with the same ctr stocks and upgrading them all is not happening.
I'm getting close, if i can just get a good rear rest would help.
Last trip out I forgot to add a sixth round but was decent.
I made a rest to mitigate that but version 1 tips back.
My front rest is working well, steady no bounce, light.
Need to attach a slick bottom surface as it is too grippy.
This is for bench rest load testing and have a lot of ar's in the family
all with the same ctr stocks and upgrading them all is not happening.
I'm getting close, if i can just get a good rear rest would help.
Last trip out I forgot to add a sixth round but was decent.
How much muzzle jump are you seeing? You can measure it with your reticle. There is going to be some jump, even in those videos you see that look like none is present. Also like Wade says having a 6 mm and a heavy rifle with a muzzle brake sure makes it easier.
Just watched those 3 videos that Rocketmandb posted on youtube. They are probably the best videos i have seen explaining what is happening. If you have not seen them they are really good!! Thanks Rocketmandb!
The online training access is a great resource, I highly recommend it.
@nfoley thanks for the feedback. I've had some family issues that have precluded me from getting the next videos out - trigger management is next.
Just watched the three videos on Recoil, explains why I was driving myself loopy trying to sort out what was happening as rifle movement was so inconsistent. Now and again v little movement (maintain sight picture), 50% of the remaining movement to the left followed by movement to the right and vertical stringing trying to control it. Now just got to put it right!
Many thanks for these, clear concise and informative. Look forward to the following ones.
Many thanks for these, clear concise and informative. Look forward to the following ones.
Rocketmandb, I watched your videos as I've been having issues with muzzle jump. Your videos were a big help, running my 308 and 6.8 today my rifles sat nearly still every shot.
Appreciate it, definitely recommend to watch if anyone is having recoil management and rifle jumping around.
Appreciate it, definitely recommend to watch if anyone is having recoil management and rifle jumping around.
Just wonder if there is a jump, does that mean the bipod will move like what @Rocketmandb described in his 2nd video?
I played this video in the slowest speed, the shots he took between 11:20 and 13:00, I can see some jumps(around 2-3mils) in the scope camera, but I couldn't tell any movement on his bipod. So I am not sure if that level of aiming movement is normal/within tolerance? Or there is a recoil management issue with the shooter?
Thank you.
I played this video in the slowest speed, the shots he took between 11:20 and 13:00, I can see some jumps(around 2-3mils) in the scope camera, but I couldn't tell any movement on his bipod. So I am not sure if that level of aiming movement is normal/within tolerance? Or there is a recoil management issue with the shooter?
Thank you.
The rifle ends up pointing up and pretty far to the left. This is likely indicative of body weight being to the left of the line of the rifle, though there could also be other reasons. Given that in this video he is all about "get rounds on target quick!", he likely isn't paying especially close attention to his positioning.
To answer your first question, in a situation where you have time, I'd want less horizontal movement.
Thank you very much.
So can i say if the shooter manages recoil and shooting position well, the aiming point after taken the shot would preferably be within 0.5mil or even less to the original one with minmial horizontal movement?
I think the biggest improvement to my consistency was a result of applying proper rearward pressure into the shoulder. Everything finally "felt" correct after I started doing that.
Read this thread:
Read this thread:
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I did three videos on recoil forces that can be found at the top of the list here:
science of recoil - YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
More than likely you're tensing your shoulder or placing the stock against a particularly had part, like your shoulder blade. Doing so exacerbates any issues you have in positioning and technique.
Thank you for making and posting these videos! I have had times where I shot well and I didn't understand why I went off the rails or how to correct it.
I find some of the rifle instruction cues are similar in vagueness to the golf instruction world cues of "keep your head down" and " follow through!"... they don't really help if you don't know the physics behind what you trying to do... or at least that's how my engineer brain works. Breaking things down to force diagrams and component vectors is just the most simple way to discuss what is happening.
"Get behind the rifle"...uh, ok, yeah the front is the bad part
"Follow through".. you mean just lay there?
"Square up"... this one is close, but if my shoulder isn't soft, your video tells me exactly why I'm seeing torque reactions and bipod rebound intermittently
Thanks for the comments. I've always found that if you know why something happens, you are far more effective in correcting issues than just being told what to correct.
I was going to do some trigger management videos with the guy who corrected some of my trigger problems (Sean Little @Hogstooth with Vapor Trail Tactical) along the same vein as these, but then some family stuff happened and now all the CV stuff. Those should be interesting as well when I can finally get to making them. Of course that will take travel, etc., which is currently problematic.
Sean Little taught me how to shoot 10 years ago in NC. I've taken a couple classes with him and I'm always sharp and on target by the end. The problem is I get rusty when I go months without shooting.
Sean's classes were a ton of fun and he gave me my favorite coaching queue of all time regarding trigger control. He said "It's a trigger, don't play with it like it's a clit". That one stuck with me
Vertical muzzle rise is 3 things:
- Rear bag; its either being squeezed and let go under recoil or is not providing enough support and is flopping/being pushed down by the stock under recoil. This is usually do in part to the other 2 problems below.
- Rifle butt is not at proper height on your shoulder/collar area. Either too high or too low.
- You're not pulling the rifle back with your firing hand's bottom 3 fingers enough.
- Rear bag; its either being squeezed and let go under recoil or is not providing enough support and is flopping/being pushed down by the stock under recoil. This is usually do in part to the other 2 problems below.
- Rifle butt is not at proper height on your shoulder/collar area. Either too high or too low.
- You're not pulling the rifle back with your firing hand's bottom 3 fingers enough.
Those Science of Recoil videos were super helpful, explained what I was doing wrong to the point! 1. Hard shoulder and 2. not fully lined up behind the rifle (slanted to the left) The way he describes it is exactly what happens when I shoot.
Looks like I’m late to the game, but my son and I went to the range recently with a couple rifles to shoot. I had planned to shoot a bunch of 7mm rem mag loads and I brought my match rifle for him to shoot (RPR, 6creed, suppressor). Well, he wanted to shoot the 7mm rem mag. So here he is, all 115 lbs of him, behind a sporter-weight 7mag, but yeah it does have a brake... This was posted in a thread in the equipment forum, but it applies here.
There is a great video (maybe on YouTube?) of Jason Bynum shooting a 300WM (I believe) in a hunting weight rifle, to demonstrate the straight back recoil. But, he’s a pretty big dude, from what I can tell, and he’s a pro. There’s also a great video of Lowlight shooting (definitely on YouTube, search bipods don’t hop) from a steel bench to show that bipods don’t hop, even on adverse surfaces. He’s kind of a little dude, but he’s also a pro. Solid fundamentals that even a teenager can employ...
Square up behind the rifle, this dude is creating solutions for problems that don’t actually exist.
Thought I would share, while I don’t consider myself a great shot, I know I can shoot decent. Lighter recoiling rifles I have printed sub 1/2” groups many times...though it seems magnums setup for hunting it seems to be an issue. Lately I added spiked feet to my atlas bipod on my 300 norma mag improved per my builders recommendation. The rifle would jump left on recoil no matter what I did. Vertical was perfect but horizontal would shift, I felt like I chased my tail for a bit trying to improve my groups and recoil management. Mind you the groups were never horrible and were around .5-.6moa, but I knew the setup was capable of better. I’ve had it out a few times how it’s the spiked feet and what a difference it makes! The rifle digs down in the dirt and sticks. It slightly bucks but settles right on target again at 20x magnification at 100yds. It was a joy to shoot before but now it’s even better! Best of all my groups have tightened up as well and just shot a .23” group at 100yds today.
something to try if you’re battling horizontal shift from recoil!
something to try if you’re battling horizontal shift from recoil!
Shooting a rifle well depends on a bunch of factors, and it's really impossible to point the finger at oneself and pinpoint a thing that made you shooter better, or worse. Further, if we try to juggle these myriad factors at once, while shooting, we're likely to end to with varying and confusing results.
Yet this is what many of us try doing anyway, especially the newer guys. They think that they can read the books, view the videos, sample the pointers, and zoom right in on ultimate accuracy. This doesn't work because the human brain is not capable of performing this kind of complex multitasking.
I hate to disillusion some of us, but good marksmanship is work, hard at first, and easier with the right kind of practice. There is no substitute for that, because the rote practice is the (only) means by which the mind can convert hard conscious concentration into a seamless learned process. These individual subtasks must become second nature, precisely because the failure to do so overloads the conscious mind and literally makes good marksmanship a genuine impossibility.
If you're not willing to dedicate a significant portion of your thoughts and energies to a years long, even decades long continuous process of managed improvement, take up golf.
For the details, see this. If the name seems familiar; yes, he owns and runs this site. So what, it's still a great book. This is another one, too.
Yes, I'm telling us to read books and soak the contents up. But make it a good book; and don't be cherrypicking the details. The details work, all as a part of the whole process.
We practice them individually, The novice practices them until they can get it right. The expert practices them until they can't get it wrong. They then move on, and finally, they come back and string them together until the individual processes become a single smooth process.
Eventually it's all about getting to the sighting solution and the trigger manipulation; about as much conscious thought as the average human mind can actually handle. Because we're all really pretty average at the start. Building a marksmanship skill set is like building a rifle. Start simple; add capabilities. That's whole process in a nutshell.
It's a long and drawn out process, and there isn't any other way to get it done so it remains a useful skill. Good marksmanship is a commitment to excellence and to the work that makes it so.
Greg
Yet this is what many of us try doing anyway, especially the newer guys. They think that they can read the books, view the videos, sample the pointers, and zoom right in on ultimate accuracy. This doesn't work because the human brain is not capable of performing this kind of complex multitasking.
I hate to disillusion some of us, but good marksmanship is work, hard at first, and easier with the right kind of practice. There is no substitute for that, because the rote practice is the (only) means by which the mind can convert hard conscious concentration into a seamless learned process. These individual subtasks must become second nature, precisely because the failure to do so overloads the conscious mind and literally makes good marksmanship a genuine impossibility.
If you're not willing to dedicate a significant portion of your thoughts and energies to a years long, even decades long continuous process of managed improvement, take up golf.
For the details, see this. If the name seems familiar; yes, he owns and runs this site. So what, it's still a great book. This is another one, too.
Yes, I'm telling us to read books and soak the contents up. But make it a good book; and don't be cherrypicking the details. The details work, all as a part of the whole process.
We practice them individually, The novice practices them until they can get it right. The expert practices them until they can't get it wrong. They then move on, and finally, they come back and string them together until the individual processes become a single smooth process.
Eventually it's all about getting to the sighting solution and the trigger manipulation; about as much conscious thought as the average human mind can actually handle. Because we're all really pretty average at the start. Building a marksmanship skill set is like building a rifle. Start simple; add capabilities. That's whole process in a nutshell.
It's a long and drawn out process, and there isn't any other way to get it done so it remains a useful skill. Good marksmanship is a commitment to excellence and to the work that makes it so.
Greg
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Snuby; I concur with the approach you're taking, about improving the interface between the rifle's stock, and the rest/rear bag supports. It's a solid echo of the work I've been doing on my rifles while being locked down for the virus.
My AR's mostly have M-Lok handguards, which ride the bag smoother than the Pic rail versions. I had looked for rail covers, but the only really workable option was the smooth bottom of the M-Lok guards. These are an exceptional version of the concept. My Stag Super Varminters have Hogue Rubber clad forends, and I slick them up with an application of Black Duck Tape on their underside.
The collapsible M4 Stock had to go, along with the carbine buffer tubes and assemblies. The Choate E2 stocks I chose have bag riders incorporated, but also required the replacement of the buffer tubes and assemblies with conventional A2 versions. I chose to leave my Stag Super Varminters unaltered and added the EGW Bag Rider to their A2 Stocks.
Carrying a front rest or bag is not always convenient, and a bipod is required. But the Harris type bipods clutter up that handguard and something newer solves that. The UTG Recon Bipod halves attach to the sides of the M-Lok forends and leave their bottoms smooth for bag riding when in the stowed configuration. They're not cheap; so I'm budgeting one purchase of them a month.
Getting rounds on target fast, for me, involves an AR. Interrupting concentration and the firing hand's position in order to cycle the firearm is just too much of a distraction/interruption to tolerate when AR's are so readily available (at least for folks who choose not to live in the occupied states). That concentration can be taken better advantage of with the Luth-AR Chubby Grip.
And finally; all of my AR's have the same control ergonomics involving the Chubby Grip and some version of the extended bolt release, like the Magpul BAD Lever.
There was the time, and also the costs involved; but the lockdown and the stimulus payment covered that part.
Greg
My AR's mostly have M-Lok handguards, which ride the bag smoother than the Pic rail versions. I had looked for rail covers, but the only really workable option was the smooth bottom of the M-Lok guards. These are an exceptional version of the concept. My Stag Super Varminters have Hogue Rubber clad forends, and I slick them up with an application of Black Duck Tape on their underside.
The collapsible M4 Stock had to go, along with the carbine buffer tubes and assemblies. The Choate E2 stocks I chose have bag riders incorporated, but also required the replacement of the buffer tubes and assemblies with conventional A2 versions. I chose to leave my Stag Super Varminters unaltered and added the EGW Bag Rider to their A2 Stocks.
Carrying a front rest or bag is not always convenient, and a bipod is required. But the Harris type bipods clutter up that handguard and something newer solves that. The UTG Recon Bipod halves attach to the sides of the M-Lok forends and leave their bottoms smooth for bag riding when in the stowed configuration. They're not cheap; so I'm budgeting one purchase of them a month.
Getting rounds on target fast, for me, involves an AR. Interrupting concentration and the firing hand's position in order to cycle the firearm is just too much of a distraction/interruption to tolerate when AR's are so readily available (at least for folks who choose not to live in the occupied states). That concentration can be taken better advantage of with the Luth-AR Chubby Grip.
And finally; all of my AR's have the same control ergonomics involving the Chubby Grip and some version of the extended bolt release, like the Magpul BAD Lever.
There was the time, and also the costs involved; but the lockdown and the stimulus payment covered that part.
Greg
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I found things got good for me when a few things happened.
Learn to be comfortable in position and methodical about how I get there.
Being very relaxed on position and during the shot.
Holding that firing feel throughout the travel time of the bullet( on Really long shots I’ll give up on it after 3 or so seconds) to get good follow through.
