Gunsmithing How to deal with a crooked gunsmith?

[darth_ritis]

Ordered two barrels with an out-of-state gunsmith whom I thought had a good reputation. That was June 15th. Claimed 2-4 week lead time on barrels. It's been games and excuses and lies ever since.

I really don't know what to do, I've rarely had to deal with such a shady character and have no idea what avenues of justice are available. Is this something the ATF should deal with? I doubt the Better Business Bureau cares about gunsmith stuff, and since it's out-of-state I doubt a police call will work. I really hate lawyers, but what else is there?

 

[chongoMT]

If you used a credit card to pay that would be a great place to start. I know its about the principle of the business deal and all that, but if you just want your money back without teaching the a-hole a life lesson I'd think the credit card company could help.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Not to put things in perspective or anything, but a 4 month lead time is pretty quick work for a lot of custom one man gunsmiths on getting rifle barrels done, especially if they have to order the blanks.

 

[darth_ritis]

Not to put things in perspective or anything, but a 4 month lead time is pretty quick work for a lot of custom one man gunsmiths on getting rifle barrels done, especially if they have to order the blanks.

Perhaps, but the website said 2-4 WEEKS and I waited 10 before contacting the first time.

 

[darth_ritis]

... if you just want your money back without teaching the a-hole a life lesson ...

Both would be preferred, but I'll start with the card.

 

[Codiekfx400]

I was told 8 weeks for a barreled action at one time and it took 14 months. I would say be patient.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

In your situation, I would call the credit card company.

If they reach out and say "I effed up, it's going to be longer than I expected" I can live with it.

But once they start yanking your chain, it's game over.

 

[Kadams1563]

There is no damn reason to be waiting this long IF he had barrels and is not held up for anything.

I have had a few customs built and never waited more then a month.

 

[Supersubes]

Ordered two barrels with an out-of-state gunsmith whom I thought had a good reputation. That was June 15th. Claimed 2-4 week lead time on barrels. It's been games and excuses and lies ever since.

I really don't know what to do, I've rarely had to deal with such a shady character and have no idea what avenues of justice are available. Is this something the ATF should deal with? I doubt the Better Business Bureau cares about gunsmith stuff, and since it's out-of-state I doubt a police call will work. I really hate lawyers, but what else is there?

When you say ordered two barrels, I’m assuming you mean prefits of some sort? How much have you paid on the deal? How did you pay? Why not out the guy?

 

[ChadChadson]

Ordered two barrels with an out-of-state gunsmith whom I thought had a good reputation. That was June 15th. Claimed 2-4 week lead time on barrels. It's been games and excuses and lies ever since.

I really don't know what to do, I've rarely had to deal with such a shady character and have no idea what avenues of justice are available. Is this something the ATF should deal with? I doubt the Better Business Bureau cares about gunsmith stuff, and since it's out-of-state I doubt a police call will work. I really hate lawyers, but what else is there?

Dispute with your credit card, write him negative reviews everywhere, and have your family do so

 

[supercorndogs]

Who is the barrel maker? I have an order in for an AR-15 barrel with someone, 8 week lead time at the beginning of june. We are now around 18 weeks and they are still giving people 10 week lead times when ordering AR-15 barrels. Pm me who it is if you want, just wondering if we are dealing with the same place.

 

[308pirate]

Why do people put up with this shit?

My customers expect their shit when I promise it and I move what I need to move to deliver. If something happens that I can't recover I'm up front about it.

Who is he?

 

[powdahound76]

This is why I usually recommend LRI.
they are quick and their stuff is second to none. And they stick by their work if something is amiss, as it happens

Not sure about times, but Mile High does great work.

and now another local guy has his own shop, but not sure on his lead times. Black Canyon Customs.

All 3 do great work and will be honest about stuff.

I know LRI is fast and will do you right.
They seem to like to help a guy who has been hosed by a douche too.
My sample of 3 rifles all shoot .5s and I kinda suck.
Probably my bipod. Its a Harris.

 

[alfmoonspace]

Let us know who this guys is. Maybe we will say that wait time is short if we have worked with him in the past.

 

[charnicus]

I have a feeling we know who it is... Considering I know of at least two very long threads. Not to be that asshole for assuming...

 

[264win]

Sorry for OP, but that sort of thing seems pretty common with smiths. 4-6 mo isn’t uncommon for a custom barrel in a lot of places.

 

[supercorndogs]

4-6 months should be uncommon, if they quoted a lead time time of 2-4 weeks. I understand things happen, but the business of making excuses pisses people off, where as a simple sorry goes a long ways.

 

[alfmoonspace]

Now we know why quick change prefits are the bees knees. Keep that stash up and you never have to worry OP

 

[darth_ritis]

I'm not ready to name names just yet, a pissing match in a forum won't make anything better. If the credit card company reverses it, I'll name them, otherwise I might have a legal battle ahead and don't want to make things worse.

A lot of places have had plandemic-related delays, and that's to be expected in my opinion, perfectly reasonable. However ... Lots of excuses through August and most of September, while I gave the benefit of the doubt. Claiming to be shipping on 9/22, expedited!! but not doing it ... after emailing asking for the tracking number, I got a tracking number 9/30 ... FedEx hasn't seen the shipment yet. Expedited my shiny white ass! If this is delays because the blanks were out of stock or whatever, why the endless lies and games?

I've already bought a different hunting rifle to salvage elk season this year. At this point, getting my money back on these barrels will be a huge burden lifted.

 

[darth_ritis]

Now we know why quick change prefits are the bees knees. Keep that stash up and you never have to worry OP

As long as you can trust the barrel maker, yes absolutely!

 

[darth_ritis]

Not sure about times, but Mile High does great work.

MileHigh did a barrel for me this year. It was delayed because Covid hit and Bartlein got backordered. MileHigh communicated well with me, and the result was a fantastic barrel.

 

[Dildobaggins]

A pandemic will, cause massive shortage and panic buying. As many have said. All sites I seem are usually 4-6 month lead times. I understand the place said 2-4 weeks. If you don't have the patients, or you feel like something is off...call this person and demand your money back before contacting your credit card company. If he's not a complete idiot he will reimburse you. if that does not work call the CC company. If that does not work, File a small claims hearing for your money back. I dont think it would matter if its out of state. again if he gets that, hell give you your money back.

 

[powdahound76]

If your “extra” hunting rifle isnt up to snuff accuracy wise, I have a Tikka .308 thats ready to hunt.

It runs 2.5” groups at 300 with Hornady 155 amax.
Kills everything.

Lemme know. Its around for crap like this.
Just cost you a handshake.

 

[Robert S]

Ordered two barrels with an out-of-state gunsmith whom I thought had a good reputation. That was June 15th. Claimed 2-4 week lead time on barrels. It's been games and excuses and lies ever since.

I really don't know what to do, I've rarely had to deal with such a shady character and have no idea what avenues of justice are available. Is this something the ATF should deal with? I doubt the Better Business Bureau cares about gunsmith stuff, and since it's out-of-state I doubt a police call will work. I really hate lawyers, but what else is there?

When you say he plays games, has excuses, and lies, can you elaborate on those. I’m curious.

 

[Terry of illinois]

I know just how you feel . Sometimes I think that all the so called gunsmith are just a lot of talkers and not doers . I have had all my parts at a so called smith now for 517 days yes that’s right 517 all I get is how the world is so messed up with all the shit going on . He has not answered my phone calls in over a year only texted me once every other month.I have gone as far as to tell him just send my shit back to me and I will get it taken care if but he won’t even do that . Just remember I have bought all the parts and even payed him so now what do I do ?

 

[Lazyfaire]

In your situation, I would call the credit card company.

If they reach out and say "I effed up, it's going to be longer than I expected" I can live with it.

But once they start yanking your chain, it's game over.

I agree. There is a time limit with CC companies on being able to challenge a seller. Life's too short

 

[Tucker65]

I know just how you feel . Sometimes I think that all the so called gunsmith are just a lot of talkers and not doers . I have had all my parts at a so called smith now for 517 days yes that’s right 517 all I get is how the world is so messed up with all the shit going on . He has not answered my phone calls in over a year only texted me once every other month.I have gone as far as to tell him just send my shit back to me and I will get it taken care if but he won’t even do that . Just remember I have bought all the parts and even payed him so now what do I do ?

I'm not a professional gun plumber and I could get it done quicker than that. I'd definitely be getting my stuff back and looking elsewhere.

 

[jzwolen]

I know just how you feel . Sometimes I think that all the so called gunsmith are just a lot of talkers and not doers . I have had all my parts at a so called smith now for 517 days yes that’s right 517 all I get is how the world is so messed up with all the shit going on . He has not answered my phone calls in over a year only texted me once every other month.I have gone as far as to tell him just send my shit back to me and I will get it taken care if but he won’t even do that . Just remember I have bought all the parts and even payed him so now what do I do ?

I've never understood why people don't want to CALL OUT the offending gunsmith when shit like this happens. If you delivered all required parts for a build, there is no reason why it should take more than 6 months max. 517 days is rediculous, and the fact that he won't ship your parts back is theft. If I were you, I would tell as many people as possible who this smith is, and not to use them. These people should not be doing business.

 

[rijndael]

I've never understood why people don't want to CALL OUT the offending gunsmith when shit like this happens.

Some may want to wait until their stuff has been returned before publicly shaming them, otherwise it may be even more difficult to recover their belongings.

 

[Lazyfaire]

I've never understood why people don't want to CALL OUT the offending gunsmith when shit like this happens. If you delivered all required parts for a build, there is no reason why it should take more than 6 months max. 517 days is rediculous, and the fact that he won't ship your parts back is theft. If I were you, I would tell as many people as possible who this smith is, and not to use them. These people should not be doing business.

While I can agree with your intent remember that he still holds all of your parts. Before you go public I would have a lawyer send him a demand letter with a 'drop dead' date and/or a full value of what you paid for the parts. If no response, contact the sheriff and file a criminal complaint. The time to go postal comes after those things get done. My 2 cents

 

[gafferq2xl]

I didn't read all of the posts here so I apologize if I'm regurgitating info here.
BEFORE, you call the credit card company to start a dispute put together as much detailed documentation as you can and keep this in a file with all of the correspondence from the CC company until resolved.
Texts, emails, phone calls, everything and submit it. This will minimize the rebuttal from this gunsmith.
If they make a case for their side, the CC company will reinstate the charges until your counter.
Hope this helps.
On a side note and in my personal opinion, I wouldn't accept any work from them as a resolution in this matter based on lost trust.

 

[hlee]

Gun owners, as a group, have battered wife syndrome.

He's a really good man.
He didn't mean it.
It was my fault really.

 

[RTH1800]

If he refuses to return your receiver you can call the BATF. It is stolen.

 

[FisherT&C]

Ordered two barrels with an out-of-state gunsmith whom I thought had a good reputation. That was June 15th. Claimed 2-4 week lead time on barrels. It's been games and excuses and lies ever since.

I really don't know what to do, I've rarely had to deal with such a shady character and have no idea what avenues of justice are available. Is this something the ATF should deal with? I doubt the Better Business Bureau cares about gunsmith stuff, and since it's out-of-state I doubt a police call will work. I really hate lawyers, but what else is there?

What are the excuses and lies? Just curious.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Is this something the ATF should deal with?

ATF will tell you it's a civil matter

 

[Shooter McGavin]

If he refuses to return your receiver you can call the BATF. It is stolen.

The gunsmith can literally close shop while in possession of the receiver and the ATF will tell you it's a civil matter. Once he receives it into his books it's his, as far as the ATF are concerned.

 

[W54/XM-388]

A lot of this could be solved if these one man shop gunsmiths would stop accepting work they can't complete quickly.

They could easily move to a reservation system like some others do, where you get your name on the list, when your slot is next up, you get told to send in your stuff for the order, or cancel and the next guy gets the call up.

 

[RTH1800]

The gunsmith can literally close shop while in possession of the receiver and the ATF will tell you it's a civil matter. Once he receives it into his books it's his, as far as the ATF are concerned.

Yes but most FFl’s don’t want to raise the ire of the BATF.

 

[LRI]

Yes but most FFl’s don’t want to raise the ire of the BATF.

After being in this game for almost 3 decades I can tell you the local office won't give two bits about a couple of barrels. The BATFE exists to chase down much bigger fish. All the vendor has to do is state that there's some kind of dispute and they'll wash their hands of it. Same for the police.

It sucks, it's not fair, etc. . . I get it. Use this as a means of not wasting your/someone else's time. Credit card companies have taken a much more proactive stance on supporting their customers. A little too much at times as I know of guys who've been burned by the kind of finks who dispute something after the purchase for the sole reason of ripping someone off.

If this were me, I'd write a certified letter with a notary copy on file. State your demands and provide them 96 hours to respond. If you don't hear, call your CC company and get it refunded.

Good luck. Sucks that this shit happens.

 

[Kadams1563]

^^^ and then send said parts to him to get completed in a couple of weeks I’m sure

 

[jzwolen]

Sadly, I'm betting the OPs parts are worth as much, if not more, than the labor he already pre-paid for. Its one thing to dispute the CC charge for the smith, its another thing to actually get his parts back. After almost 2 years, it may take a combo of CC dispute AND travel to pick up your parts in person.

 

[StLPro2A]

If you used a credit card to pay that would be a great place to start. I know its about the principle of the business deal and all that, but if you just want your money back without teaching the a-hole a life lesson I'd think the credit card company could help.

With that much time lapsed, you have probably already paid the credit card statement, which leaves you no recourse through the credit card. Start with BBB. You may not get actual restitution, but the record may save another victim your pain. You probably now wish someone previous had done that for you. Last resort would be a personal visit.

 

[sgtsmmiii]

It may not be practical in the OP's case - but - back in the '90's I did a road trip to see my " gunsmith" after he pulled some extended stupid shit. Knocking on his front door at 0600 and then waiting to go to his bank together at 0900 to get my money. I heard EVERY conceivable excuse during those 3 hours.

Fun times.

 

[Snipe260]

In your situation, I would call the credit card company.

If they reach out and say "I effed up, it's going to be longer than I expected" I can live with it.

But once they start yanking your chain, it's game over.

This!

 

[Snipe260]

I have a problem with people that don’t do what they say! If you can’t do it simply reach out to the customer. Problem solved! I’d rather someone tell me up front that it will be 9 months instead of 1 month that turns into 9! That’s no excuse for that!

 

[Disfunctional_Engineer]

I have a problem with people that don’t do what they say! If you can’t do it simply reach out to the customer. Problem solved! I’d rather someone tell me up front that it will be 9 months instead of 1 month that turns into 9! That’s no excuse for that!

A lot of this could be solved if these one man shop gunsmiths would stop accepting work they can't complete quickly.

They could easily move to a reservation system like some others do, where you get your name on the list, when your slot is next up, you get told to send in your stuff for the order, or cancel and the next guy gets the call up.

Either of these ways is better than what this smith is doing. Both rely on honest, up front communication and setting expectations around what time lines are. If parts are delayed that should be called out and the decision given to the customer.

 

[308pirate]

I know just how you feel . Sometimes I think that all the so called gunsmith are just a lot of talkers and not doers . I have had all my parts at a so called smith now for 517 days yes that’s right 517 all I get is how the world is so messed up with all the shit going on . He has not answered my phone calls in over a year only texted me once every other month.I have gone as far as to tell him just send my shit back to me and I will get it taken care if but he won’t even do that . Just remember I have bought all the parts and even payed him so now what do I do ?

Drive over to his place. Walk in. Take your shit, by force if need be.

 

[Ksracer]

How to deal with a crook/liar.
Step 1. TELL PEOPLE WHO IT IS!
Just listening to your story, I can guarantee you're not the first person to have that experience. Trustworthy people are upfront about issues and don't make endless excuses. They will OFFER you a refund, rather than forcing you to demand one. He's already probably working on f*ing the next guy over. Don't you wish somebody had warned you?

 

[William Weddendorf]

I had a gunsmith, who did great work, but set the world's record for being crotchety, who has since recently passed - the cognoscente may be able to figure out the person. But in my first build attempt when arrangements went South, I bad-mouthed his name across every related social media platform, including his FB page; that caused an attitude change to where I was finally invited to his shop to witness my build. He and I then had an arrangement, where if I wanted some work done, I would buy the parts and show up on an appointed day, and he would work for me exclusively - except for time-wasting diversions. He was still crotchety, with remaining issues on meeting delivery commitments for work that had to be left for completion. My advice: do not suffer without naming names and details; I did get pushback from his bootlickers, but I did receive a message from another person with a similar problem. I did file a BBB complaint in the first instance, and pickup after a second visit, promised in a month went out to 6-months under threat of police involvement. Admittedly, he had some unanticipated problems cerakoting a scope and did a superb job with immaculate masking of scope markings on knobs.

 

[Baron23]

Take your shit, by force if need be.

If you go this route, might want to take bail money with you.