How to hit a hidden target when they give you a sighting target?

[sch2046]

Every match I have shot that had a hidden target w a give distance, but they give you a sighting target to aim at, I have missed. is there an
easy math formula for this? Or, am I over thinking this and the answer is in front of my face?

 

[OREGUN]

What?

 

[wpeach1912]

I have had this once at a match, and you could see the target from 3/4 shooting positions. They used a spray painted mark above the target that you could use to measure the target distance from vertically. You'll need to describe more. Like where is the sighting target in relation to hidden target? Can you see hidden target from elsewhere?

 

[Hobo Hilton]

(PDF) Learning where to look for a hidden target

PDF | Survival depends on successfully foraging for food, for which evolution has selected diverse behaviors in different species. Humans forage not... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[OREGUN]

Tell your match director that in an effort to comply with general rule #4, you refuse to use indirect fire in his stupid-ass match.

 

[sch2046]

lol, the visible target is at a distance farther out from the actual target below a dirt pile etc. the target you can not see has a give distance too..
I am not explaining this well. the bullet has to drop into the target behind a dirt pile etc. cant see any of the target.

 

[skipjack]

It’s a rifle not a mortar. Sounds like a firearm safety rule that is not being followed. Like know your TARGET and what’s beyond.

 

[OREGUN]

So you are expected to shoot at something you can’t see?

I’m fine with having the target partially obscured with vegetation or intermediate terrain and being expected to know that trajectory will clear that “stuff”. But taking a wag at a target based on known distance and a paint line for general location? There’s no formula. Dial the distance, line up on the line, correct for wind and send it.

I still hold that shooting at something you can’t see is as bad as sending a ND into nowhere.

 

[hlee]

Overthinking. Do you play golf? Ever hit over water or a hill? They’re not in the way of the ball because of the arc of your ball. The same is true with precision long range rifle shooting. The hill is only in the way of your line of sight…

 

[hafejd30]

Not sure what your exactly talking about

But if your expected to shoot a target you cannot see

Simply put a round through the most expensive thing in your field of fire

The stage will likely not be there next time

 

[hlee]

Had a shot at the first match I attended. You could see the target will standing, but it was obscured while in shooting position. No tripods allowed, must use provided support. Spotter could see the target as the tripods could get over the obstruction. One of those “circus shots” that have low practicality for civilian shooters…

 

[KnowNothing256]

Are you told how many mils below the sighting target your real target is? I don’t mean DOPE difference, I mean that if you could see both targets at the same time from the FFP, how far below the sighting target is the actual target, in mils, in your scope?

 

[JustSendit]

Overthinking. Do you play golf? Ever hit over water or a hill? They’re not in the way of the ball because of the arc of your ball. The same is true with precision long range rifle shooting. The hill is only in the way of your line of sight…

Exactly, put your hold for the target on the landmark you can see and the falling branch will take care of the rest. Consider any other obstacles and favor to not hit those.

It’s not science but to be proficient you have to find a way to setup that type of shot and practice a few times.

It’s about as useful as side prone with a high power scope… but occasionally matches want you to do these things.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

As long as you know where the target “should” be, it’s the same as any other shot.

The easiest example is say a target that is on the back side of a hill. For examples sake, let’s say it’s 2ft tall and you can see 1ft of it.

As long as it’s far enough away the trajectory has an angle of approach that will go “over” the hill, you can hit the target anywhere you want still.

Either hold center like you normally would. Or use the top of the plate as reference and use appropriate mil or moa hash in reticle.


It’s the exact same way you *should* be shooting a spinner. You should be using the top cross bar for your reticle reference point.

 

[KnowNothing256]

It’s the exact same way you *should* be shooting a spinner. You should be using the top cross bar for your reticle reference point.

At the risk of taking us off-topic, would you mind unpacking this a bit, particularly the advantages over the alternatives? Never heard of this “proper” way to do it but always love cheap improvements in technique or strategy.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

To be clear, the MD has to provide some sort of info like:

-Distance to target and distance to sighter (or allow you to range it)

-Measurement in mils from the sighter. I.E. “target is 3 mils below the sighter”

Also, there should be a location where the spotter can see the entire target or a camera set up. As we need to be able to safely account for all rounds and RO needs to be able to stop a shooter if something is wrong with impacts.



It’s a very simple task if you have the required information.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Agreed with @Hoplite Arms Ammunition that one piece you haven’t mentioned that’s required is the angular offset from sighter to real target.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

At the risk of taking us off-topic, would you mind unpacking this a bit, particularly the advantages over the alternatives? Never heard of this “proper” way to do it but always love cheap improvements in technique or strategy.

No problem.

Let’s say you’re shooting a spinner. When the timer starts and you get on your optic with your dope dialed in:

-put center of crosshair on the spinner target where you want to hit it. Usually it’s below the crossbar (just reverse it if you want to shoot the top one)

-now look above your reticle and see where the crossbar is. Let’s say for example it’s 3 mil above center

-that 3 mil is now your elevation “hold”. You keep that 3 mil on the cross bar at all times

-now all your have to do is pull trigger when the spinner is swinging backwards and is about to be where you want it to impact



This allows you to not try to focus on an ailing point that “isn’t there” since you’ll break trigger before the spinner is in the impact area.

You can use this technique with any moving target that has a fixed movement (not lateral movers).

And it doesn’t have to be the cross bar or stand. It can be a tree or anything in the background or foreground. And it can be left, right, up, down.


That’s the awesome thing around reticles with hash marks. You can use them all kinds of ways so you’re not just aiming in middle of nowhere.

 

[OREGUN]

No problem.

Let’s say you’re shooting a spinner. When the timer starts and you get on your optic with your dope dialed in:

-put center of crosshair on the spinner target where you want to hit it. Usually it’s below the crossbar (just reverse it if you want to shoot the top one)

-now look above your reticle and see where the crossbar is. Let’s say for example it’s 3 mil above center

-that 3 mil is now your elevation “hold”. You keep that 3 mil on the cross bar at all times

-now all your have to do is pull trigger when the spinner is swinging backwards and is about to be where you want it to impact



This allows you to not try to focus on an ailing point that “isn’t there” since you’ll break trigger before the spinner is in the impact area.

You can use this technique with any moving target that has a fixed movement (not lateral movers).

And it doesn’t have to be the cross bar or stand. It can be a tree or anything in the background or foreground. And it can be left, right, up, down.


That’s the awesome thing around reticles with hash marks. You can use them all kinds of ways so you’re not just aiming in middle of nowhere.

Further derail: why is it so fucking hard to get good training! You ask questions, take classes, read articles, watch you tube shills and miss spinners all the time….mean time, this is out there…and a million other things that you don’t know and even people you pay good money to don’t tell you. Jeezus. Trying to get better at shooting “PRS-type-matches” is the singularly most frustrating thing I’ve ever done.

 

[KnowNothing256]

No problem.

Let’s say you’re shooting a spinner. When the timer starts and you get on your optic with your dope dialed in:

-put center of crosshair on the spinner target where you want to hit it. Usually it’s below the crossbar (just reverse it if you want to shoot the top one)

-now look above your reticle and see where the crossbar is. Let’s say for example it’s 3 mil above center

-that 3 mil is now your elevation “hold”. You keep that 3 mil on the cross bar at all times

-now all your have to do is pull trigger when the spinner is swinging backwards and is about to be where you want it to impact



This allows you to not try to focus on an ailing point that “isn’t there” since you’ll break trigger before the spinner is in the impact area.

You can use this technique with any moving target that has a fixed movement (not lateral movers).

And it doesn’t have to be the cross bar or stand. It can be a tree or anything in the background or foreground. And it can be left, right, up, down.


That’s the awesome thing around reticles with hash marks. You can use them all kinds of ways so you’re not just aiming in middle of nowhere.

Got it, thanks. I know what you mean about shooting at a “target-to-be,” and it can be just that little bit of distraction that means a miss under time; hadn’t thought about using a more permanently visible reference, but that’s great. You use your peripheral vision to track the timing, I’m guessing, while you actually focus on the crossbar hold?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Got it, thanks. I know what you mean about shooting at a “target-to-be,” and it can be just that little bit of distraction that means a miss under time; hadn’t thought about using a more permanently visible reference, but that’s great. You use your peripheral vision to track the timing, I’m guessing, while you actually focus on the crossbar hold?

Yes. Also, you likely won’t be shooting off something unstable.

Even on a stable barricade, you could be able to set up, get the reference mark, and almost take your attention off of it and just focus on the location of the target for the proper trigger break timing.

It all happens pretty fast if you’re trying to make it spin. But it’s much easier when you mentally break it down like this.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Yes. Also, you likely won’t be shooting off something unstable.

Even on a stable barricade, you could be able to set up, get the reference mark, and almost take your attention off of it and just focus on the location of the target for the proper trigger break timing.

It all happens pretty fast if you’re trying to make it spin. But it’s much easier when you mentally break it down like this.

Love it, thanks! My local NRL22 club guys love the spinner for bonus stages, I’ll be trying this out.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Further derail: why is it so fucking hard to get good training! You ask questions, take classes, read articles, watch you tube shills and miss spinners all the time….mean time, this is out there…and a million other things that you don’t know and even people you pay good money to don’t tell you. Jeezus. Trying to get better at shooting “PRS-type-matches” is the singularly most frustrating thing I’ve ever done.

There’s very, very few out there who can actually teach competition strategies.

You need to be:

-shooting matches so you’re up to date
-performing well at those matches
-able to articulate the information to students


That’s a very rare combo. Not having one of those makes you almost ineffective.

We’ll be offering competition clinics this year. Though likely limited to South Texas for the time being.

I highly recommend the JTAC guys or someone like Vibbert as well.

Make sure your fundamentals are solid before moving into competition strategies.

 

[308pirate]

Further derail: why is it so fucking hard to get good training! You ask questions, take classes, read articles, watch you tube shills and miss spinners all the time….

You could think the problem through.

 

[smoothy8500]

@Diver160651 presented a similar stage from Avenal's match in his "Tips and tricks" stickied above. Here's a target that is visible when standing but partially obscured by a hill when shooting prone.

The key was knowing the height of the target and aiming for where its center should be instead of trying to aim at the sliver of target that's visible. Since the arc arc of the projectile will go over the hill in front.

 

[hondo1312]

I think they did this at HeatStroke one year. The target you aimed at was X yards, and the target you were supposed to hit was Y yards and 10 mils left. I'm going off of memory, and I didn't shoot or RO that stage, so I could be wrong.

 

[OREGUN]

You could think the problem through.

If only we were all as amazing as you, we could solve all the problems and learn all the answers just by thinking about it.

This is probably how you became an expert in thread tensioned fastener fuckology or any of the other things you give useless, one-line-with-no-context, responses about.

fuck off

 

[308pirate]

If only we were all as amazing as you, we could solve all the problems and learn all the answers just by thinking about it.

This is probably how you became an expert in thread tensioned fastener fuckology or any of the other things you give useless, one-line-with-no-context, responses about.

fuck off

Not my fault that I am good at many things because I put the time and effort into figuring them out.

 

[Jack Master]

Every match I have shot that had a hidden target w a give distance, but they give you a sighting target to aim at, I have missed. is there an
easy math formula for this? Or, am I over thinking this and the answer is in front of my face?

Here is an example of what I have seen and how we solved the problem. The hardest part for these stages is if the wind is wicked and you cannot see where you miss.

You'll have to excuse my awesome drawings skills but its the best way to get the idea accross

 

[19Scout77]

OREGUN
This will likely provide you tremendous relief at your next match. And thankfully, they now have a tactical version you can pack just about anywhere.

 

[Alpine 338]

I shot one of those stages at Battle of Breakneck a few years ago. The hard part was accounting for the wind, as you couldn't see your impacts or misses.

The stage was shot with 10-rounds fired at one target under a certain time, and your squad could offer you input on those shots while you were shooting.

Unfortunately, I had three guys yelling corrections to me all at the same time, and it turned into a clusterfuck, as I couldn't keep track of what they were yelling.

That stage sucked because of my stupid squad mates.

 

[bax]

Here is an example of what I have seen and how we solved the problem. The hardest part for these stages is if the wind is wicked and you cannot see where you miss.

You'll have to excuse my awesome drawings skills but its the best way to get the idea across

A spotter can give you coordinates from a reference point.

"Target ... [Discussion to agree on a reference point] ... Target is 640 yards behind the berm. Hold 3 mils low and 1 mil right."

"On target."

"Engage ... Miss left. New hold. Hold 3 mils low and 1.5 mils right."

"On target."

"Reengage ... Impact"

I had to do this at a match because the target was visible to my spotter but behind a bush from my position. I held (or dialed, I don't recall) 3.5 mils left from a visible reference point - in this case a steel silhouette target. This was 2-3 years ago. I think I missed my first shot and hit on the second.