how to play the long game

[CarbonMTN]

So I recently built my dream gun its a semi custom Tikka Varmint cambered in a 223 - I'll post picture soon and do a white up. But now is where the fun begins.

I saw a Instagram video the other day of someone shooting a 18" custom AR15 223 to a mile with 77gr Bergers. I know that even a 22lr will go a mile it but how consistent is it and how many shots did he take to land 1 impact, so anything will go that far. I mean I have fun plinking 22lr beyond 400 yards and just giggle when I can connect one.

But in all honestly what is the trans sonic distance of a 223?

Could the Berger 80gr VLD get me out there?

I dont see anyone playing with the 80 gr not even hand loading. the most I ever see is the 77gr.

What am I not seeing/knowing before I go down this rabbit hole.

 

[Steel head]

Shooting a 223 at a mile would certainly be interesting.
But I’d certainly rather have my 260 or 7SAUM.

 

[Mordamer]

Do you not have a ballistic calculator to check different bullets and velocities and see what the transonic range is?

If you have a 1:7.5" or 1:7" twist barrel you can do better than the Berger 80 grain bullet. I suggest the 88 ELD-M for those twists. For a 1:8" twist the best bullet I know of is the 80 ELD-M. You should be able to get that to 2,850 FPS or faster in a 24" barrel. Transonic will likely be at around 1,000 yards.

Transonic doesn't mean that much in my opinion. You will likely be able to get consistent hits long after your bullet is subsonic if you have the right twist barrel.

 

[spife7980]

My 16” shooting 75elds goes trans at 900 and sub at 1070. Says mile is 35 mils

My 24” shooting 70rdf goes trans at 900 and sub at 1100. Says mile is 34.7 mils

That’s according to be Geoballistics/jbm engine calculator.

A mile is a hell of a long ways part that at 1760.

And even longer barrel with even heavier bullets will certainly only help. I think shooting them into a massive dusty sand trap with a big ass spotter to see your infinitesimal impacts will be a bigger help.

 

[702lineman]

A 223 at that distance could be done I think, obviously already has, but I think main thing is getting an absolutely perfect day to do it. Zero wind with good visibility would make it much easier for sure

 

[Steel head]

Hmm
Can you dial/hold about 44 mils?

those 77’s sporting about 75ftlb’s of energy are gonna be tough to even spot hits let alone misses.

 

[b6graham]

Tons of people load 80+gr bullets but often in FTR or other single fed guns with long freebores.

If I shot a 223 I'd be with the 80.5 fullbore. 80eldm. Or 85.5 hybrid

 

[goosed]

Hmm
Can you dial/hold about 44 mils?

those 77’s sporting about 75ftlb’s of energy are gonna be tough to even spot hits let alone misses.

Dial 44 mils...

Yep, that's no problem (link)

 

[Steel head]

Dial 44 mils...

Yep, that's no problem (link)

lol.
yea,,,,your OAF if you have one of those on your AR.

 

[1J04]

So I recently built my dream gun its a semi custom Tikka Varmint cambered in a 223 - I'll post picture soon and do a white up. But now is where the fun begins.

I saw a Instagram video the other day of someone shooting a 18" custom AR15 223 to a mile with 77gr Bergers. I know that even a 22lr will go a mile it but how consistent is it and how many shots did he take to land 1 impact, so anything will go that far. I mean I have fun plinking 22lr beyond 400 yards and just giggle when I can connect one.

But in all honestly what is the trans sonic distance of a 223?

Could the Berger 80gr VLD get me out there?

I dont see anyone playing with the 80 gr not even hand loading. the most I ever see is the 77gr.

What am I not seeing/knowing before I go down this rabbit hole.

I think you've been here long enough to answer some of your questions your own self.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml

Enjoy wasting your time and money.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I think your results would be disappointing at best.

I shoot a lot of 223, and some at extended range. For me, extended range with the 223/5.56 is anything past 600yd, and I'd really rather not extend that past 800yd.

Yes, sure; there are plenty of shooters who do well enough to keep them at it shooting to 1000yd, and some well beyond that. But that is not the norm; and generally requires particularly longer barrels to get the best results, very heavy bullets at pretty high pressure loadings, and sophisticated optics for spotting and scoring hits from the smaller projectiles the 223 can drive.

In short, that's well beyond the initially intended capabilities of the round, and is a pretty specialized segment of the shooting community.

As someone who has pursued the longer range environment for nearly two decades, I strongly suggest a serious rethink concerning your goals. As a varmint round, the 223 is considered to be beyond its effective range at about 275yd. For example, my longest kill on a woodchuck was about 400yd, and was using a .22-250 that day.

For 1000yd, I use the 308, for beyond that, I have strong confidence in the 260 for beyond 1100-1200yd, and would want to work up the 280 for significantly further than that; and these are just the low end of the recoil spectrum.

As stated above, the ballistic calculator tells the truest tale. IMHO transsonic begins as velocities drop below 1300fps, go below supersonic at about 1100fps, and accuracy become statistically less reliable as the projectile transits down through transsonic, to supersonic, and below that.

When you figure that the 223 generally runs about 25gr of propellant, and the specialized ELR chamberings run up to and possibly beyond 100gr. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. That kind of performance is hard on the equipment and the shooter, and will probably be a bit frustrating when dealing with consistent performance at 1 mile, for any equipment choice.

Then; we haven't even begun to discuss the wind and its effects at distances where flight times get up beyond 5, and maybe 10 seconds, and even more.

Just sayin'...

Greg

 

[Steel head]

^^^
I agree.

I started with a 223.
I quickly found it was kinda frustrating at about 800 yards.

800 yards is a long long ways from a mile.

Got a 260 and 800 yards is a chip shot and a mile is consistently doable.

Now I have a 7 saum.
If it’s performance at 1125 is indicative of possible mile performance I’m gonna be

 

[CarbonMTN]

Not going to hunt with the 223. I don't hunt. If anything I fish and that's about it for getting my own source of food.

This is what I saw about the transonic stage. Agree with what that guy talks about and has videos backing up with facts of ELR shooting.

.223 is cheap for me to shoot and reload. again I LOVE pushing calibers beyond what is easy, I love the challenge. if I wanted easy I would just build a 300 Norma to shoot a mile.

260 would be next but I want to learn the fundamentals first. then a 300 Norma after that.

 

[LongRangeLefty]

I saw a guy on YouTube a long time ago who shot a .223 at a mile with a 30” barrel. I don’t recall what bullets he was using. I’d be very happy to get it to 1000. As for now I’m using 190 SMK out of my 20” RPR .308 and they get there fairly easily. But I’m showing 38 Mils to get my load to 1760. At least I might catch the splash a little easier.

Here’s one....

 

[Danattherock]

I've shot long distance a fair bit with 223, stay off YouTube is my advice. I agree with Greg above about 600-800 being good near max (regular hits) with 223. I have had several hits at 1000-1100 in matches, but wind blows and I'm dead. Got a 223 trainer, MPA chassis, kelbly tactical Atlas, 25" M24 barrel, and will use Hornady 75 elds. But only shot 77 smk previously. If you want an affordable, fun, rifle to shoot 400-800, it's hard to beat. And occasionally reach out to 1000 on calm days, sure, absolutely.

Dan
NC

 

[chevy_man]

Honestly, I'd drop back down in size to a bullet you can get going reasonably quick. The 223 just looses soooo much steam with the heavies.

Everyone is chasing BC right now, but forgetting about the entire ballistics envelope. You need some speed to keep the drops reasonable. Also helps fight the wind in the closer ranges.

Play with some ballistic calculators. Look at speed vs bullet weight and drop vs transonic/subsonic shift.


I'd only really bother with heavier than 60ish grn projectiles in a larger case myself. .224 valkary and 22-250 come to mind here.



We had a 12 yr old girl at our local match place in the top 15 with a .223. The single largest problem we had was doubling up spotters on the 800+ yard targets to make sure they could see a hit as it wouldn't reliably set off our strobes. There just isn't any energy left out there and a camera system to spot hits and misses is almost a must unless you have good dry dirt to get good large splashes.

 

[CarbonMTN]

I wouldn't touch the valkary with a free gun. twist rates are so touchy with certain grain weights, I'll spend a long time developing a load.

I think I'm going to try 80GR Berger VLD, hoping to push 2550 FPS. 20 Gr of N140 to start and I'll go from there.

 

[Steel head]

I wouldn't touch the valkary with a free gun. twist rates are so touchy with certain grain weights, I'll spend a long time developing a load.

I think I'm going to try 80GR Berger VLD, hoping to push 2550 FPS. 20 Gr of N140 to start and I'll go from there.

You could spend a lifetime developing a 223 load and it’s still gonna suck eggs past 1000 yards.

 

[CarbonMTN]

You could spend a lifetime developing a 223 load and it’s still gonna suck eggs past 1000 yards.

True but I could always fall back on 7-800 yards, I think I can do it. I got the Tikka varmint with a 23" barrel. So I'll get plenty of speed out of it. It will be so rewarding when I hit it. A single tear might roll down my face and splash onto my rifle.

 

[benchmstr]

IF! you could push a 73gr eld match at 3000fps and had absolutely no wind? you would have a chance thats a lot better than most believe.

I ran my numbers at an altitude of 1700' and humidity of 19%

bench

 

[CarbonMTN]

One shot and a wish!

 

[Long Range 338]

I wouldn't touch the valkary with a free gun. twist rates are so touchy with certain grain weights, I'll spend a long time developing a load.

I think I'm going to try 80GR Berger VLD, hoping to push 2550 FPS. 20 Gr of N140 to start and I'll go from there.

Yeah, you're right about the Valkyrie, its just terrible. As attested by the multiple threads by the HMFIC here who just happens to be a big fan.... Not sure what hype you've been reading or where but the Valkyrie is the real deal and the ammo is cheap enough to keep you from having to develop handloads. 75, 88, and 90 gr options in factory ammo, what's not to like? You do you, just don't try to pass off ignorance as doctrine.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/224-valkyrie-at-team-safari.6966842/

 

[chevy_man]

The thing about the valkyrie is you can get twist rates for those bullets and push them like a 22-250.

I personally would just do a 22-250AI in a 1-7 twist, but that's just because I'm difficult.


Run the numbers on a 63-65 going 2900-3000 vs that 80 at 2550. I'd bet it's surprising how much better the ballistics are at reasonable ranges.

 

[chevy_man]

IF! you could push a 73gr eld match at 3000fps and had absolutely no wind? you would have a chance thats a lot better than most believe.

I ran my numbers at an altitude of 1700' and humidity of 19%

bench

I get away with some stuff shooting at 5k ft and an average of 20-25% humidity. Then reality sets in and the temps drop and it all comes back to reality. It's nice shooting where it's almost never above 90*, and usually more like 65*. Getting a load to work at 90* and 0* does suck though.

 

[Long Range 338]

The thing about the valkyrie is you can get twist rates for those bullets and push them like a 22-250.

I personally would just do a 22-250AI in a 1-7 twist, but that's just because I'm difficult.

Run the numbers on a 63-65 going 2900-3000 vs that 80 at 2550. I'd bet it's surprising how much better the ballistics are at reasonable ranges.

Of course you can go the 22-250 route, or others as well (22 Creedmoor would be an absolute laser). The real advantage to the Valkyrie is the factory ammo being so cheap - of course the fact it fits AR-15 mag length is what brought it to be.

 

[benchmstr]

I get away with some stuff shooting at 5k ft and an average of 20-25% humidity. Then reality sets in and the temps drop and it all comes back to reality. It's nice shooting where it's almost never above 90*, and usually more like 65*. Getting a load to work at 90* and 0* does suck though.

Yeah, I live in 13' elevation! I don't get away with shit!! Lol

Bench

 

[260284]

So I recently built my dream gun its a semi custom Tikka Varmint cambered in a 223 - I'll post picture soon and do a white up. But now is where the fun begins.

I saw a Instagram video the other day of someone shooting a 18" custom AR15 223 to a mile with 77gr Bergers. I know that even a 22lr will go a mile it but how consistent is it and how many shots did he take to land 1 impact, so anything will go that far. I mean I have fun plinking 22lr beyond 400 yards and just giggle when I can connect one.

But in all honestly what is the trans sonic distance of a 223?

Could the Berger 80gr VLD get me out there?

I dont see anyone playing with the 80 gr not even hand loading. the most I ever see is the 77gr.

What am I not seeing/knowing before I go down this rabbit hole.

I have the Tikka Varmint in 223 and it is really fun to shoot with the 75gr ELDM at 3035 fps. I am using H4895, Nammo brass, CCI 450s, and loading them .020" off the lands (2.49"). I have taken it past 1000 in matches and my son made a 1st round hit at 1400 with it. I would run the 80gr ELDM if I were shooting for a mile in a 1-8" barrel.

 

[CarbonMTN]

Hold on a second....

Your dream gun is a Tikka Varmint in 233?

I post pictures of it soon.

I'm not a caliber chaser so I dont need fancy 6.5 with the fancy bling actions and barrels. I have not grouped this rifle yet but if my Ruger AP can do .68" @ 100 yards with factory Norma 77gr SMK than I bet with reloading the Tikka will do better.

Over all dream rifle is a 300 Norma Mag but I dont got money for that.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm living at what is variously described as 4350ft ASL and 4500ft ASL. I'm still limiting my 223/5.56 shots to 600yd with HDY 75Gr HPBT-Match at 2900-ish fps.

This because I have nicer toys for beyond 600yd.

Nothing quite like a sure thing...

Greg