How to test ammo lots?

Franko

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Right now I am shooting mid grade stuff ($6-$10 a box) and I just shoot a box of each lot I want to test into 5 shot groups at 50 yards. I do this on two different days and buy a case of the winner.

I am now considering stepping up to ($10-$20) a box ammo and wondering what testing protocols I should be using for better ammo. I am still considering testing myself rather than shipping the gun to the Eley and Lapua test ranges as I don't believe Eley will do testing for their Match and Team ammo lines.

Thanks.
 
What I have done:

-Shoot 10 shot groups instead of five shot groups - this is what is done for good reason at the testing centers
-Do the tests at 100y instead of 50 if you plan on shooting >100y with the tested ammo
-Do the testing indoors
-Use a Lead Sled, or some other totally secure rest for the rifle
 
The way I was taught:

Shoot 3 - 5 shot groups at 50 yards.
Clean gun - get the different wax & lead combination out of barrel.
Shoot next ammo - 3 - 5 shot groups at 50 yards.

Continue this until you have tested all the ammo you have to test. When I did it it was something like 20-25 different types of 22lr ammo so it took a while.

I look over targets and pull the 3 or 4 types of ammo that shot best at 50 and then repeat process at 100 with those.

Mine likes the Eley Edge best.
 
I went out on a real nice day and tested ammo at 50, 100 and 300 yards. Doing this eliminated 80% of my sample ammo. High dollar ammo, Ely Match, Tenex, and Lapua Midas shot great at 50yards, but sucked big time at 300. Ely Club, a 6 buck ammo shot equally as well.
Being I am running scopes on rifles with 30mils internal adj I am going to shoot 300+ yards every outing, I saw no need for 50 yard specific ammo.
My Bergara shoots CCI SV and SK Started Plus almost exactly the same until some wind comes up and I have to put the SV away and continue with SK Plus.
In my Rim X, I really never needed to test any ammo other than Center X, I tried some but it seemed futile, and I can't see paying any more for ammo when wind is the biggest deciding factor in getting hits past 200 yards.
Be careful, cost here proves little.
 
Well, as I look at my lot testing from Lapua, there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules they adhere to. Some ammunition is
discarded after only four shots at 50 meters. Labeled as 193 in the photo. Lapua does the 50 and 100 meter testing simultaneously.
It strikes me as a little odd that the bullet just right of center near the 12 o'clock position has crossed over to the left side. In any case, the bullets don't follow a strict mathematical pattern from 50 out to 100 meters. And they test inside from a fixture of some type. From the group labeled B14R it is clear that they were fairly happy with the initial results and ended up shooting 20 shots to come up with a 12.09mm ctc group for their recommendation.

I don't seem to have a clear point today other than to show you what Lapua does as an example. I was really surprised to see that from my V22,
the smallest groups were about .31" ctc but the larger ones opened up to over .81" ctc. ( no tuner ) and that was between lots and not different types. Initially I was not sure about my shooting skills so it made sense to me to send some guns in for lot testing. I'm not a big fan of chasing my tail nor blaming the equipment. But after I felt the various guns and myself were pretty much in sink I felt more comfortable believing my results and therefore felt able to pick ammo myself to a large degree. Now I have guns that I trust and can be fairly confident about my ammo choices.

Until you have your gun lot tested or it is shooting near perfectly and you have an established baseline, how do you know if that gun will even shoot well ? I used to shoot aspirin at 50 yards with my pellet gun so that is my personal baseline. It wasn't a Daisy Red Rider. LoL

Sidebar.... with a few bucks and a little time, my B14R trigger is breaking at 11 oz. and I didn't need to remove the side plate to do it nor is it a set screw keeping the sear on the hairy edge of disaster.
 

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Looking back we waisted a lot of time trying to sort out the ammo that would work best for us. ( we have 3x Tikka T1x’s ). Many range trips started to indicate that our 3 guns were going to favor 3 different lots of ammo. In the end we had them lot tested at Lapua. Watching as Luke worked thru the lots in the test tunnel confirmed that there was no way we could have gotten as good of a results doing our own testing. We walked away with 3 lots that each have our guns shooting great. My advice would be to just save the time and headache and get your gun lot tested. That way you’ll have confidence that when you are shooting your not fighting the ammo.
 
Well, as I look at my lot testing from Lapua, there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules they adhere to. Some ammunition is
discarded after only four shots at 50 meters. Labeled as 193 in the photo. Lapua does the 50 and 100 meter testing simultaneously.
It strikes me as a little odd that the bullet just right of center near the 12 o'clock position has crossed over to the left side. In any case, the bullets don't follow a strict mathematical pattern from 50 out to 100 meters. And they test inside from a fixture of some type. From the group labeled B14R it is clear that they were fairly happy with the initial results and ended up shooting 20 shots to come up with a 12.09mm ctc group for their recommendation.

I don't seem to have a clear point today other than to show you what Lapua does as an example. I was really surprised to see that from my V22,
the smallest groups were about .31" ctc but the larger ones opened up to over .81" ctc. ( no tuner ) and that was between lots and not different types. Initially I was not sure about my shooting skills so it made sense to me to send some guns in for lot testing. I'm not a big fan of chasing my tail nor blaming the equipment. But after I felt the various guns and myself were pretty much in sink I felt more comfortable believing my results and therefore felt able to pick ammo myself to a large degree. Now I have guns that I trust and can be fairly confident about my ammo choices.

Until you have your gun lot tested or it is shooting near perfectly and you have an established baseline, how do you know if that gun will even shoot well ? I used to shoot aspirin at 50 yards with my pellet gun so that is my personal baseline. It wasn't a Daisy Red Rider. LoL

Sidebar.... with a few bucks and a little time, my B14R trigger is breaking at 11 oz. and I didn't need to remove the side plate to do it nor is it a set screw keeping the sear on the hairy edge of disaster.
AGS
The Lapua test centers do have general rules that they use, one of which was pointed out after only 4 shots. Why keep testing a lot that at 50 meters does not have the first 4 touching? Waste of time and money, so they move on to the next one.

As for significant difference between lots, that occurs w/ all brands of match grade ammunition, be it Lapua, Eley or RWS. I have had lots of Tenex that exceeded 1.3" at 50 meters - again, that is a large - but not uncommon - difference and why it is important to test for the best possible matching of specific lots to your rifle.

Utilizing a test center - either Eley or Lapua - will certainly provide insight on how well your rifle will generally perform. Tunnels do some masking on outdoor performance in wind, however to provide a reasonable expectation of test results the elimination of wind as a factor is critical.

The test fixture used at both Lapua test centers (Mesa, AZ or Marengo, OH) allows you action to be clamped into a specific-made aluminum test block or you can also request to have your rifle tested in the stock as a "complete system". The Meyton electronic target system is used to record simultaneous results at both 50 and 100m. Testing is done w/ Lapua XAct, Midas+ or Center-X ammunition.

The Eley test center is located in Winters, TX and is run by Killough Shooting Sports. They also use a similar test fixture in a tunnel utilizing custom made blocks for actions. I believe that they can also barrel clamp or test the complete rifle, however I have not personally been at their facility yet. All testing is done at 50m with only Tenex grade ammunition.

Regards,
Ken
 
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Ken,

I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. I send most of my guns to Lapua because they can do a much better job than I can do.
From prior testing, I feel I have the equipment and the ability to pick out some decent lots when the guns cant be sent in.
I sent three guns into Lapua a few months ago and was told that I could not send any more in until now, November
because they need to have ammunition for other people. Three more will go in in the next 30 days. They have been limiting
ammo sales to one case per gun as of late.
As far as guidelines, I meant that they don't have rigid guidelines like fire ten shots of each lot regardless of outcome.
You can see from the image that I posted that all they needed to see that lot was crap was four shots. Why would anybody
continue beyond that.
The OP indicated that he wants to do his own lot testing so I was offering the print outs to give him a visual guide. The print
outs also show that Lapua will put 20 shots in a group when they get close to a good lot. Furthermore they give the OP an idea of
what a good lot may look like in terms of size. I wanted to give him information rather than try and convince him he should do it
a different way. Had Franko asked my opinion on what to do, I would have strongly recommended that he not waste his time
or money looking for the best lot. It is very possible that the best lot may not even be available to him but he would have no
way of knowing that. Even if he finds a great lot, he then needs to find a case or two of it. Lapua takes care of that for you.

The above is just my opinion and I'm sure it has little value.
 

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This is not going to be a popular answer but pick your yardage and shoot target for score. Pick a target that is difficult. Record all data(weather,wind,wind direction,time of day,ect). Pick a place you can shoot at any time and get to know that place. You need to know your place well enough to know what a good target is on the condition of that day.You need a place that when ammo is available you can get there quickly and get it tested while its still available to buy. All of this will not happen quickly. It may take years of data to be where its a more educated buy. I know all this because we have been there. A person has to build a good notebook to feel good about ammo testing and mistakes will still happen in buying.

Todd
 
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Right now I'm mostly shooting at 50 yards and could see moving to 100. I don't plan on shooting further unless its at steel and maybe if I can find rimfire PRS near me.
Then your best served by shooting a card for score as this gives your the best odds of hitting center. Note this is not always the same as smallest group ES.
 
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The testing Ive done so far is shooting 6x5 at 50m, I would love to do it at 100m aswell but the wind here in West Aussie makes it very hard.

I followed the following process. I chronied everything, chronyed the 10 foulers, and then the 6x5 as a whole 30 shot lot.

1. Clean barrel
2. Shoot 10x foulers
3. Shoot 6x5 shot groups.
4. Take average size.

Repeat for each ammo. I know chrony doesnt tell all for rimfire, but for LR work, in my thinking, physics dictate that for good vertical will have good ES.

So far Ive found that work as my RWS R50 has ES of low to mid 20s and shoots good vertical and groups at 200m. My SK Rifle Match has high 30s, low 40s ES. SK HV Match was over 70 and had a habit of shooting wide groups, so I chucked it. I mainly shoot SK RM for club comps.
 
The testing Ive done so far is shooting 6x5 at 50m, I would love to do it at 100m aswell but the wind here in West Aussie makes it very hard.

I followed the following process. I chronied everything, chronyed the 10 foulers, and then the 6x5 as a whole 30 shot lot.

1. Clean barrel
2. Shoot 10x foulers
3. Shoot 6x5 shot groups.
4. Take average size.

Repeat for each ammo. I know chrony doesnt tell all for rimfire, but for LR work, in my thinking, physics dictate that for good vertical will have good ES.

So far Ive found that work as my RWS R50 has ES of low to mid 20s and shoots good vertical and groups at 200m. My SK Rifle Match has high 30s, low 40s ES. SK HV Match was over 70 and had a habit of shooting wide groups, so I chucked it. I mainly shoot SK RM for club comps.
If your goal is 200+ yards what shoots best at 50, 100 yards doesnt mean that it will shoot the best at 200, 300.

I do all velocity tests with 90 rounds in a batch.
Mid grade ammo typically is 35-60 fps and high end 25-40.
 
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If your goal is 200+ yards what shoots best at 50, 100 yards doesnt mean that it will shoot the best at 200, 300.

I do all velocity tests with 90 rounds in a batch.
Mid grade ammo typically is 35-60 fps and high end 25-40.
Yeah I know. I do verify it at 200m and if it shoots good vertical then Im happy. I havent been able to do as much as I would like as its summer here and the wind gets interesting. Not the best for testing long range. I'll have to wait for winter to find days with no wind. We dont have anything like a Lapua or Eley Test centre in Australia.
 
Yeah I know. I do verify it at 200m and if it shoots good vertical then Im happy. I havent been able to do as much as I would like as its summer here and the wind gets interesting. Not the best for testing long range. I'll have to wait for winter to find days with no wind. We dont have anything like a Lapua or Eley Test centre in Australia.
A test centre wont help you for long range. Even if you just take the vertical at 100 it has no indication if 200 yard performance. My best long range lapua is the worst at 100 and Eley contact is even 50% worse then that one at 100 yards yet shoots the same at long range.
 
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Fair enough. Good info. Cheers mate.
Have fun testing though. Its half the fun and you learn alot. Dont believe anything you hear on the internet (me included 😉) and test it for yourself.
Thats what got me in this so deep. People say this or that is gospel truth but they never tested it personally. Often these truths come back to one article or post somewhere taken out of context. So how can I really know....
 
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My data would say that good at 200 yards does not mean good at 50 or vise versa.

I hear ya' C.

My data shows otherwise.
Cartridges that were capable of tight groups at 200 yards were spectacular at 50.
In order to obtain good results at long range, the mv has to be tight, extremely tight.
1 fps difference in mv is 1/10th inch difference in vertical at 200 yards with match 22lr.
Any deformity of the projectile results in increasing trajectory dispersion,
double the distance results in triple the spread.
Wind effects are cumulative over time...direction and force vary the entire time of flight.
So at short range with extremely tight mv's, well made cartridges uniform in shape and assembly,
and minimal time of flight, there was a reason my results were so good at both short and long range.
Any variation from those results were due to me mistiming the squeeze, mv spread (picked up by the chrony)
or cartridges that showed visible differences from the rest in the box.

It's rimfire, variations in components and assembly means every shot is a coin toss.
Welcome to the assembly line lottery. ;)
 
I understand the lottery part but.... I'll put together some charts for comparison this winter one day. Somewhere along the line I started saving my test results in Excel (all to late, to much testing is lost) there are general correlations 2" groups at 100 are bad at 200 for sure but 0.7" vs 1.3" not said that the 0.7 is better.

A typical testing round for me is 2 10 shot groups at 50 2 10 shot at 100 2 20 shot at 200 1 20 shot at 300. This allows me 100 rounds per cycle. (Long range is more important for what I do)

You do 50 shot groups I do 20 as its easier to calculate vertical SD of dispersion. 200 vs 300 normally correlates.

My opinion is it comes down to positive compensation for long range. I had a lot of Eley force that had a 90 fps ES yet in my one rifle grouped 4" vertical at 200. It was 1.5" vertical at 100 yards and 0.7 at 50. I dont remember the 300 yard. In that same rifle I had a lot of CX with less then half the velocity ES 0.4 at 50 1" at 100 8" at 200.

I'm not saying that the lottery has nothing to do with it. It does! But then after that there is more yet.

Now where I do agree with you. My one rifle kinda likes Eley match/ Tenex (I know your feelings on that topic. Mine are same but different 😉) the lots of those ammo the smaller the ES the smaller the groups at distance generally. Not always but almost One of my lots shoot better at 300 then the all the others but not as good at 200.
 
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I've had similar results, but the variations were due to box to box differences.
I can't verify the results from a single box at 50, 100 and 200 yards.
No way to compare the trajectory path at 50, 100 and 200 yards from the same bullet.
Some day, some one will build a 200 yard test tunnel with electronic targeting at 25 yard intervals.
That way we will be able to definitively see if the trajectories have distance related nodes of concurrence.
In the meantime we get to argue the topic over coffee and fill in the slow portions of the work day. :D
 
I agree. I have access to buildings that are long and high enough. Maybe even more the 200... 😉 The equipment is the issue... 🤑

If you can repeat the results say 3x with all of them saying the same thing is that good enough? Ish? 🤔 we do run into the question of normal statistical variation in group size but some math could show that too.

With larger group sizes if I calculate the vertical SD it stays pretty consistent even though the ES changes some. 5 shot groups are all over the place no consistent data to be had.
 
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I agree. I have access to buildings that are long and high enough. Maybe even more the 200... 😉 The equipment is the issue... 🤑

If you can repeat the results say 3x with all of them saying the same thing is that good enough? Ish? 🤔 we do run into the question of normal statistical variation in group size but some math could show that too.

With larger group sizes if I calculate the vertical SD it stays pretty consistent even though the ES changes some. 5 shot groups are all over the place no consistent data to be had.
Have you tried 200yd indoor group testing?
 
I have access to buildings that are long and high enough.

High enough? C, are you vertically challenged? :giggle:

At 200 yards with standard velocity 22lr, the peak of the trajectory
is only about 20 inches above line of sight from muzzle to point of impact. ;)
 
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My data shows otherwise.
Cartridges that were capable of tight groups at 200 yards were spectacular at 50.
There's good reason to believe that ammo that performs well at longer distances also performs well at shorter ones.

Ammo performance doesn't improve with distance. It must be exhibit good performance at all distances short of its ultimate distance. The ammo doesn't know how far it will travel before striking a target.

At places such as the Lapua testing facilities, where electronic sensors record the same rounds at both 50 and 100 meters, on unusual occasions the same ammo has recorded better MOA performance at 100 than it did at 50. These are unusual because such performance depends on some bullets having an offset center of gravity that will cause better performance. Such characteristics aren't predictable and they don't occur on demand. In other words, they are a random but happy occurrence. Of course an offset center of gravity could have easily resulted in a worse-than-expected performance.

According to a student of ammo performance who posts on many firearms forums including, I believe, this one and who has compared a considerable number of test tunnel results, the average ten-shot group size at 50 increases by a factor of about 2.8 at 100. (e.g. a .3" ten shot group at 50 will on average become .84" at 100). Of course, some rifle/ammo combinations will be better or worse.

Ammo such as .22LR match almost always has worse performance as distance increases. In order for ammo to perform well at 100 or beyond, it must and will perform well at all distances. There is no reason to expect an ammo that's outperformed at 50 or 100 to be suddenly better at 200 or beyond. There's no internal mechanism that causes the ammo to "sober up" and fly straighter once it's past a certain distance. There's no flight-correcting microchip inside a .22LR bullet that makes it improve its performance the further it goes downrange.

With regard to individual bullets having a predictable trajectory based on short range performance, the short answer appears to be yes, they sometimes do, sometimes they don't. The thing is that they don't always or predictably "fly" as might be expected. The center of gravity offset problem, which can't be predicted in advance, can work for better or worse. I suspect it works for the worse more often.

For a little more on this, see this thread, especially post #10 http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forums/showthread.php/12590-Ammo-testing-at-25-yards
 
I have access to buildings that are long and high enough.

High enough? C, are you vertically challenged? :giggle:

At 200 yards with standard velocity 22lr, the peak of the trajectory
is only about 20 inches above line of sight from muzzle to point of impact. ;)
No but thats one of the first questions people ask me when I say we shoot 200 or 300 yards. With a 22lr Or or 5 or 6 😉
 
There's good reason to believe that ammo that performs well at longer distances also performs well at shorter ones.

Ammo performance doesn't improve with distance. It must be exhibit good performance at all distances short of its ultimate distance. The ammo doesn't know how far it will travel before striking a target.

At places such as the Lapua testing facilities, where electronic sensors record the same rounds at both 50 and 100 meters, on unusual occasions the same ammo has recorded better MOA performance at 100 than it did at 50. These are unusual because such performance depends on some bullets having an offset center of gravity that will cause better performance. Such characteristics aren't predictable and they don't occur on demand. In other words, they are a random but happy occurrence. Of course an offset center of gravity could have easily resulted in a worse-than-expected performance.

According to a student of ammo performance who posts on many firearms forums including, I believe, this one and who has compared a considerable number of test tunnel results, the average ten-shot group size at 50 increases by a factor of about 2.8 at 100. (e.g. a .3" ten shot group at 50 will on average become .84" at 100). Of course, some rifle/ammo combinations will be better or worse.

Ammo such as .22LR match almost always has worse performance as distance increases. In order for ammo to perform well at 100 or beyond, it must and will perform well at all distances. There is no reason to expect an ammo that's outperformed at 50 or 100 to be suddenly better at 200 or beyond. There's no internal mechanism that causes the ammo to "sober up" and fly straighter once it's past a certain distance. There's no flight-correcting microchip inside a .22LR bullet that makes it improve its performance the further it goes downrange.

With regard to individual bullets having a predictable trajectory based on short range performance, the short answer appears to be yes, they sometimes do, sometimes they don't. The thing is that they don't always or predictably "fly" as might be expected. The center of gravity offset problem, which can't be predicted in advance, can work for better or worse. I suspect it works for the worse more often.

For a little more on this, see this thread, especially post #10 http://www.rimfireaccuracy.com/Forums/showthread.php/12590-Ammo-testing-at-25-yards
I have NEVER said that some lots of 22lr will shoot a better MOA group at 200 then 100. It will NEVER happen. Well ok it can but if you do the math on it both groups would land between the statistical range of expected group size at their respective distance and it will be a one off occurrence at the extremes of the expected range giving likely the worst at 50 and best at 100. But back on topic....

There is a rate of MOA increase both with RF and CF even in CF best load at 100 is not necessarily the best at 300 or 1000.
Its this rate of increase that get people hung up. Some ammo have a smaller rate of increase then others that is why the best at 100 is NOT always the best at 200 or 300. The 200 yard group MOA will NEVER be better then as 100.

All of the testing you refer to repeatedly is 50 to 100 or in this case 25 to 50. My results absolutely agree with their results 50 to 100. BUT 100 to 200 is different. Dont believe me? I challenge you to test it for yourself. Take a number of different ammo types. (Eley, Lapua, RWS, SK etc.) same day test 50,100,200 add 300 too if you have the range. Redo this test with the same ammo and lot# multiple days from below freezing to hot summer. Put all of the data into a spreadsheet so you can easy reference.

This is why 12 twist barrels are great for long range 22lr. The rate of MOA increase is less then with a 1-16. At 100 yards there is no difference and 200 its very slight and 300 its very noticeable. I realize this is off topic but It ties in that rate of increase is still there just the rate is less.
 
I have NEVER said that some lots of 22lr will shoot a better MOA group at 200 then 100. It will NEVER happen. Well ok it can but if you do the math on it both groups would land between the statistical range of expected group size at their respective distance and it will be a one off occurrence at the extremes of the expected range giving likely the worst at 50 and best at 100. But back on topic....

There is a rate of MOA increase both with RF and CF even in CF best load at 100 is not necessarily the best at 300 or 1000.
Its this rate of increase that get people hung up. Some ammo have a smaller rate of increase then others that is why the best at 100 is NOT always the best at 200 or 300. The 200 yard group MOA will NEVER be better then as 100.
I never said anything about what you said or say above. My reply was an elaboration of the observation made by justin amateur.

The following should not be mistaken for argument. The intention is to raise a significant question.

The suggestion that the rate of MOA increase with rimfire ammo that is the best at 100 but not the best further out is interesting and raises a question or two.

On average, a ten-shot group size increases by a factor of 2.8 between 50 and 100 meters, with some better or worse. Clearly, the factor doesn't improve with the same rifle/ammo as distance doubles or doubles again. In fact, it probably gets worse. In any event, it goes without saying that the best ammo at 100 would at least be in a better position than ammo that performs less well as it passes the 100 mark. The ammo that does better at 100 has, in effect, a head start over the ammo that doesn't do as well.

If the contention is that a lot of ammo that does worse than another at 100 can do better than that other ammo at 200, it raises an important question.

Is there a mechanism or physical force that exerts itself only in mid-flight -- somewhere beyond 100 but not before -- that will enable the ammo that performs less well at 100 to do better than the other ammo by the time it gets to 200?

To put it another way, what causes the better performing ammo to experience a performance deterioration more rapidly than the other ammo that didn't perform as well at the half-way point of 100?

I don't know of a force that acts on some ammos but not on others and only after certain distances have been exceeded.

Please note that this is not a request for anyone in particular to identify the cause of the change in performance once an ammo passes 100. It's an open question for which any thoughtful information would be appreciated.
 
Good reply. I over reacted to your comment.
Thanks for posting the link it was a interesting read and informative.
I can only speculate why I dont know how you would find out for sure.

My theory is much along the lines of what Landy layed out. I never thought of the Cg being affected much by manufacturing. My assumption was its all in the barrel/chamber feeding, how straight the bullet it aligned to the case etc. If a bullet enters very slightly off then Cg and center of spin axis are off causing a yaw. This would be affected in direction it was off well chambered?
The faster twist reduces amount of yaw and this is why we also see a slight increase in BC with some ammo at longer ranges.

I borrowed a long shot camera for some 500+ yard testing. It worked very nice. I think I should buy one and shoot groups and log position of the POI at 200 based on velocity etc. But we are back to the same issue of not being able to record the same bullet POI at 100 and 200. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Is there a mechanism or physical force that exerts itself only in mid-flight -- somewhere beyond 100 but not before -- that will enable the ammo that performs less well at 100 to do better than the other ammo by the time it gets to 200?


Please note that this is not a request for anyone in particular to identify the cause of the change in performance once an ammo passes 100. It's an open question for which any thoughtful information would be appreciated.

Hopefully this qualifies as per your last paragraph.

And the answer might be velocity, or in part it might be velocity. I don't have the reference at hand but the story goes that some big thinkers were trying to optimize 22lr ammo and they found cause to really slow it down, like 950fps-ish. But they ran into other issues and our ammo today isn't that slow at the muzzle. But maybe it slows down into that sweet speed down range.

grauhanen, did my little recollection ring any bells for you?
 
I’ve tested at Lapua a couple times. Both times I bought some of the lot that shot best at 50M and some of the lot that shot best at 100M. Both times they were two different lots.

SK BiathlonSport, SK Longrange and SK HV all three perform better shooting 300 yard 6x5’s than the aforementioned Center X.
 
Hopefully this qualifies as per your last paragraph.

And the answer might be velocity, or in part it might be velocity. I don't have the reference at hand but the story goes that some big thinkers were trying to optimize 22lr ammo and they found cause to really slow it down, like 950fps-ish. But they ran into other issues and our ammo today isn't that slow at the muzzle. But maybe it slows down into that sweet speed down range.

grauhanen, did my little recollection ring any bells for you?
Ken (Williwaw), I'm not sure but the 950 fps figure reminds me of the 1990 Robert L. McCoy study "Aerodynamic Characteristics of Caliber .22 Long Rifle Match Ammunition". It had to do with wind sensitivity and MV. In his conclusion #7 on p.11 he writes "A muzzle velocity of 950 fps would minimize wind sensitivity of Eley Tenex and RWS R-50 bullets. The wind sensitivity at a muzzle velocity of 950 fps would be approximately 20 percent less than that experienced at the standard velocity of 1090 fps."

I don't know if there has a 950 fps MV match-type ammo ever made. Before the advent of smokeless propellants together with non-corrosive priming, it was possible to have slower .22LR ammo than is seen today (excluding, of course, "quiet"-type sub-1000 fps ammo that is invariably non-match quality). But, according to C.S. Landis in his 1932 book 22 Caliber Rifle Shooting, even the "best" of the older match ammos, that is prior to the the appearance of his book, was typically 1030 - 1080 fps.
 
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I’ve tested at Lapua a couple times. Both times I bought some of the lot that shot best at 50M and some of the lot that shot best at 100M. Both times they were two different lots.
This is a relevant observation and leads to a few questions.

What causes a lot of ammo to produce better results at 100 than another that performs better at 50?

Is it related solely to the ammo, for example a center of gravity offset that occurs in only some or in all the bullets?

Is it related instead to a combination of a particular rifle with it's unique barrel and with a particular lot of ammo -- perhaps something that happens with that lot of ammo as its bullets pass through that rifle's unique bore?

Does this relationship hold and continue over a larger sample size of data -- that is, over more target results than developed at testing facilities?
 
I have tested this in my limited way by taking SV and HV of the same ammo type. In all cases going from a 1100 fps to a 1250 fps wind drift increased with the 1250 fps ammo. But groups remained very simular at 200 yards. I dont see SV vs HV as a factor other then ES under 300 yards.
Even ammo in the 1040s has performed simular.

I see more differences in groups if I categorize ammo by Ogive to base length then by velocity. I still need to do more on that though.
 
Differences in groups?

Oh yeah. All I have to do is look at the bullets.
When you can see y'er brand new cartridges are beat to snot fresh out of the box,
crimp line is irregular, bullet material compressed past the crimp down on to the brass
you already know it's gonna be ugly.

JcNmT087dxc45cA58--miGRZ6zrQACFBtFGwhTuif4gDX3jG0G5WhkJ0NxtzbGCL9W0hcrwei2H7J3BlGPMOsep0g59u4qo5Rj1n2PGw6jvipHeAXNAhIoLRmhwzG8oaL06_AB1lKbgKByrPHiIkD5aDiVD5xvD_0g6DeWTsF4P-W8YVa_DCVUUK_qfWYlQx5-fmtvm0ZTGDQ2jg04d25VqYIXFRe9VQ-grW_jCBl3UwpyamhP6_Wkmu1TxIy_JjEjmeKmvbMtRaX9jtZpRZ-fMGIAMTMZtPLA0VyU2crjTrdqRri-pfMp6yGxCDOSQGJPCIElA6miG5C43g66tqGF6mQ4UgcxNO5jgipd-E1f82KMTVpsojBBKa7QJ6-fNO2hNi5arrxrdvHEjgXDfavLneAp6j0-L3P2wQgy60bcoEEvko7k6AMHbxZFhQGjju-EiTlxCz-Ltnq64fXpuPm7N6C9SDf5Pk-7oMFulg87VUVlXhQFxZlDZ21neTILBgi-kiBUy2DA-qGFr4B75DgREXHGCs-5c-y5kRBP4Yp7DtDBpIYxWz0FaC_BH3ZGcc4ysrV-B3YGvaRUNmuj8LVvLKDDSnqCPTK59OTYYjXk34RZ73IF4PlLMzNhCONa0vTyEgTohzyhnHctAQLlK3vmQVV2-pO5ft0ZKpmJwfNtaVyNeGT9XQTg=w760-h586-no


American made 22lr can't compete with the better quality European 22lr. :(
 
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1-12, 1-16 rate of vertical group ES MOA growth is 12 twist first / 16 twist
50-100 1.27/ 1.31
100-200 1.77/ 1.80
200-300 1.23/ 1.76

Here is a Graph of 1-12 vs 1-16 numbers wont match above as this is lots of ammo that have only been shoot in both and have simular vertical ES at 200. More apples to apples.
1-12 vs 1-16.jpg


Here is a bunch of ammo charting. This is average vertical group ES in MOA somewhere over 200 groups here.
50 and 100 yard are 10 shot groups and 200, 300 are 20 shot. This is all from the same rifle to show how it looks if your testing looking for the best at long range in a rifle. You will notice there are a few that shot a better vertical at 100 then at 50.
You will also note that the best at 200, 300 in this rifle is some of the worst at 100. This is not unusual and have seen this in more rifles.
yard line.jpg


This is something I noticed awhile ago in the days of recording everything on paper. I finally woke up to the fact I'm loosing a lot of information by not using excel. Worked on developing a testing procedure that gives me repeatable results with the same lot of ammo. Reliable procedure so when I buy a case of ammo its for real. Built a spreadsheet and have been saving in excel now.
Couple general observations relating to long range. Lot to lot variations do exist but ammo types in general shoot simular. (With in statistical expected group ES variation.) E.g. lapua will be simular, SK, Eley match/ Tenex. I will have the odd hummer lot in a rifle and the very odd bummer with in types. An no this is not always visually or velocity predictable with high end ammo.
 
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Is there a mechanism or physical force that exerts itself only in mid-flight -- somewhere beyond 100 but not before -- that will enable the ammo that performs less well at 100 to do better than the other ammo by the time it gets to 200?

I really think this question nails it ... I don't know what the answer is but I'm stuck on this line of thinking.

Todays offering is twist. It seems like we already know this. That is, 16 or 9 makes no difference out to 50 or 100 but at longer ranges fast twist is reported by some to be better. I don't know, I haven't shot it. But just saying twist does not really answer grauhanen's question. So I have to clarify and say that the projectile angular velocity drops below a critical level mid-flight.
 
I really think this question nails it ... I don't know what the answer is but I'm stuck on this line of thinking.

Todays offering is twist. It seems like we already know this. That is, 16 or 9 makes no difference out to 50 or 100 but at longer ranges fast twist is reported by some to be better. I don't know, I haven't shot it. But just saying twist does not really answer grauhanen's question. So I have to clarify and say that the projectile angular velocity drops below a critical level mid-flight.
When the projectile angular velocity of .22LR bullets drops below a critical level mid-flight, will it affect only some bullets in mid-flight but not all?
 
Short answer, the angular velocity of all bullets will decrease mid-flight, not by the same amount, the critical level will depend on environmental conditions and vary from bullet to bullet due to variations round to round. So all will be affected but that affect may not be directly and obviously reflected on the target. This is, after all, 22lr that we are talking about.