How to transition from thinking in MOA to thinking in MILLs

[DMTYAGER]

I am going to begin participating in the NRL shoots in my area and would like to in the not to distant future also give 22lr PRS a try as well. Absolutely EVERYTHING I have read seen or heard is scopes in MILLs are used by over 90% of participants VS MOA for multiple reasons, simplicity chief among them.

I have been thinking strictly in MOA for over 30 years and would like to know if there is a methodology I can use to transition my thinking as simply and painlessly from MOA to MILLs.
As I am a complete novice when it comes to tactical scopes and have some but only minimal experience dialing for drop or wind deflection. This will also be my first endeavor into the world of tactical scopes or using the strata on the scopes reticle to make adjustments for drop and wind deflection.

My main issue is the distances to the targets in both NRL and 22lr PRS are listed in yards and if you have a scope in MILL/MILL and unless I am wrong, you will have to convert that distance into meters then figure your scope adjustments accordingly.
One other concern is I have yet to buy a scope for participating in NRL/PRS and will have to decide if it will be in MOA/MOA or MILL/MILL and need to make a choice.

If there is a good book on long range shooting that has a chapter on how a person use to MOA can transition to MILLs, please by all means someone tell me as I would gladly buy it to educate myself.

I realize there my be no other way other than to just re-learn to adjust a scope in MILLs but if anywhere on the internet would know I figured it would be here.

 

[_Windrider_]

Oh boy. Mils has absolutely nothing to do with meters inches furlongs or any other form of measurement. 1 mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yds. If you understand how it all works you can figure out the rest. There is no tricks or shortcuts needed to switch to mils. It’s all base 10 and it’s easy.

 

[308pirate]

My main issue is the distances to the targets in both NRL and 22lr PRS are listed in yards and if you have a scope in MILL/MILL and unless I am wrong, you will have to convert that distance into meters

You are wrong

 

[Fig]

You don't have to convert SHIT. Mils and MOA are units of angle, not distance. Saying you think in MOA because of 100 yards being close to an inch is like saying I use a meter stick instead of a yard stick because I think in Celsius. They are not related except by chance.

You have to accept that the whole 1" @ 100 yards is by chance and not mathematically related. I zero my scopes at 100 yards, not 100 meters, and figure all my drops in yards not meters and I exclusively use Mils. How is that possible? They are unrelated measurements.

 

[308pirate]

I am going to begin participating in the NRL shoots in my area and would like to in the not to distant future also give 22lr PRS a try as well. Absolutely EVERYTHING I have read seen or heard is scopes in MILLs are used by over 90% of participants VS MOA for multiple reasons, simplicity chief among them.

I have been thinking strictly in MOA for over 30 years and would like to know if there is a methodology I can use to transition my thinking as simply and painlessly from MOA to MILLs.
As I am a complete novice when it comes to tactical scopes and have some but only minimal experience dialing for drop or wind deflection. This will also be my first endeavor into the world of tactical scopes or using the strata on the scopes reticle to make adjustments for drop and wind deflection.

My main issue is the distances to the targets in both NRL and 22lr PRS are listed in yards and if you have a scope in MILL/MILL and unless I am wrong, you will have to convert that distance into meters then figure your scope adjustments accordingly.
One other concern is I have yet to buy a scope for participating in NRL/PRS and will have to decide if it will be in MOA/MOA or MILL/MILL and need to make a choice.

If there is a good book on long range shooting that has a chapter on how a person use to MOA can transition to MILLs, please by all means someone tell me as I would gladly buy it to educate myself.

I realize there my be no other way other than to just re-learn to adjust a scope in MILLs but if anywhere on the internet would know I figured it would be here.

The major problem here is that you do not understand how to use MOA. If you truly did, you would have zero problem switching to milliradians.

Stop the Debate, Mils vs MOA vs IPHY

Sniper's Hide is constantly fielding the question of Milliradians versus Minute of Angle vs Inches Per Hundred Yards. Mils vs MOA

www.snipershide.com

 

[Badjujuu]

Don't overthink it - the only reason I got into MILs is Vortex sent me the wrong scope, since then all my glass is mils.

To me, it makes it's much easier, especially when most are running mils at matches.

Like previous posters said, I don't think in terms of yardage/meters conversions - if my ballistic solver tells me to dial 1.7 mils, I dial 1.7 (17 clicks) @ 100 yards. If i miss left .2 - I adjust .2 (2 clicks)

I won't use the "I think I missed 2.75 inches, so i need to calculate how many mils that is" use the reticle to measure your misses and adjust.

I was in the same boat while ago, going thru the same dilemma you have and not knowing shit about fuck when it came to reticles, mils, moas, ballistics.

Get the mil reticle scope, get a ballistic solver (ie strelok app), plug in the data:

Ammo / MV
Scope / reticle
Bore height
Zero distance

And play. Shoot. And adjust accordingly. Shoot more.

 

[alamo5000]

My advice is to STOP trying to equate X number of MOA/MILS to any form of 'distance on target'. All of the 'one inch at a hundred yards' has to go. Just simply eliminate that from your vocabulary all together regardless of MOA/MILs.

 

[lash]

Get a ballistic app for your phone and learn how to use it with your scope. Here’s a quick screenshot from my .22 using SK Std+. Note how once I know the yardage I need to shoot, it gives me my drop in mils. No conversion, no math, no thinking about it. Just dial and go. Oh, and learn your windage.

ETA: mrad is mils (milradians)

 

[Badjujuu]

I see you're from NW Indiana - we host NRL22 matches in waterman IL if you're interested, there is plenty of folks with tons of experience who are willing to share their knowledge..

 

[DMTYAGER]

Oh boy. Mils has absolutely nothing to do with meters inches furlongs or any other form of measurement. 1 mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yds. If you understand how it all works you can figure out the rest. There is no tricks or shortcuts needed to switch to mils. It’s all base 10 and it’s easy.

The point of my post is I am trying to understand how it all works so I can figure out the rest.
For example
I know from experience my one 22lr ammo (Eley Team) drops 7.5" at 100 yards and 56" at 200 so to hit a target at 100 yards using my MOA based scope and 1MOA at 100 yards = roughly 1" I will have to dial up off the top of my head 7.2-7.3 MOA to move my POI 7.5" up
This same bullet based on my shooting at 200, will impact 56" low at 200 yards and at 200 yards 1MOA = roughly 2" so to hit a target with this ammo I will have to come up close to 27MOA at 200.
I would imagine it's a very similar process using MILLs. I just want to know a good reference to teach myself how to use MILLs.
I could just use a phone app or cheat sheets but I'd like to actually understand how MILLs work.

 

[DMTYAGER]

Get a ballistic app for your phone and learn how to use it with your scope. Here’s a quick screenshot from my .22 using SK Std+. Note how once I know the yardage I need to shoot, it gives me my drop in mils. No conversion, no math, no thinking about it. Just dial and go. Oh, and learn your windage.
Great advice thank you.
How did you find the bullet used in you ammos BC? Was it listed at SK's website? Been looking at Eley's WS and can't find anywhere they list the BC's of the bullets they use. Both my B14R and T1X love Eley Team.

 

[DMTYAGER]

I see you're from NW Indiana - we host NRL22 matches in waterman IL if you're interested, there is plenty of folks with tons of experience who are willing to share their knowledge..

Once I get some experience and are comfortable in participating in NLR22 matches I'd love to come there and observe even compete in a match.
Could you please post a link or list some info about the location and dates of the matches

 

[Badjujuu]

Strlok has database of 22LR same with Kestrel and i imagine other ballistic solvers.

Here is the example from strlok

 

[_Windrider_]

The point of my post is I am trying to understand how it all works so I can figure out the rest.
For example
I know from experience my one 22lr ammo (Eley Team) drops 7.5" at 100 yards and 56" at 200 so to hit a target at 100 yards using my MOA based scope and 1MOA at 100 yards = roughly 1" I will have to dial up off the top of my head 7.2-7.3 MOA to move my POI 7.5" up
This same bullet based on my shooting at 200, will impact 56" low at 200 yards and at 200 yards 1MOA = roughly 2" so to hit a target with this ammo I will have to come up close to 27MOA at 200.
I would imagine it's a very similar process using MILLs. I just want to know a good reference to teach myself how to use MILLs.
I could just use a phone app or cheat sheets but I'd like to actually understand how MILLs work.

you are going about it all wrong. Who cars how many inches. You don’t measure inches with your reticle. You measure MOA or MILs.

younsimply need to know your dope. At 200 yds if you need 7.2 MOA, just do the math to convert it to Mils. Or better yet just go get your dope in Mils.

FWIW 1 MOA at 100 yds = .3 Mils. You should be able to figure out the rest just off that.

 

[Badjujuu]

Once I get some experience and are comfortable in participating in NLR22 matches I'd love to come there and observe even compete in a match.
Could you please post a link to some info about the location and dates of the matches

You can just come out and shoot and have fun - we get new shooters each month who progress tremendously each match. It's really a low pressure fun environment to learn - we also try to host practice/ fun days once a quarter with focus on new shooters.

Here is the practicescore registration site:

Aurora Sportsman Club | Aurora Sportsmen’s Club | PractiScore

practiscore.com

More info:

NRL22 - Aurora Sportsmen's Club

aurorasc.org

 

[DMTYAGER]

Thanks to all for educating me and exposing just how little I actually knew about MOA or MILLs and how many misconceptions I have.
Will do as advised get a phone app and grind it out shooting. Been down the path of trying to learn something I know little or nothing about and ended up going down the wrong path and learning a lot of incorrect information and picked up some bad habits I later needed to correct. I am here asking for advice and information to avoid repeating those mistakes.

Get a ballistic app for your phone and learn how to use it with your scope. Here’s a quick screenshot from my .22 using SK Std+. Note how once I know the yardage I need to shoot, it gives me my drop in mils. No conversion, no math, no thinking about it. Just dial and go. Oh, and learn your windage.
Great advice thank you.

you are going about it all wrong. Who cars how many inches. You don’t measure inches with your reticle. You measure MOA or MILs.

younsimply need to know your dope. At 200 yds if you need 7.2 MOA, just do the math to convert it to Mils. Or better yet just go get your dope in Mils.

FWIW 1 MOA at 100 yds = .3 Mils. You should be able to figure out the rest just off that

This is the advice I was looking for and in need of.

Strlok has database of 22LR same with Kestrel and i imagine other ballistic solvers.

Here is the example from strlok

Excellent thank you.

 

[Badjujuu]

Yeah, don't think about inches etc.

For example - if I dial up to hit 100 yard target and the red dot represent my actual impact, which is low, I measure how much up i have to go with my reticle - in this case i still have to come up 1.7 mils and i adjust accordingly without converting anything to inches

Same is done with MOA reticle

 

[Emerson0311]

I am going to begin participating in the NRL shoots in my area and would like to in the not to distant future also give 22lr PRS a try as well. Absolutely EVERYTHING I have read seen or heard is scopes in MILLs are used by over 90% of participants VS MOA for multiple reasons, simplicity chief among them.

I have been thinking strictly in MOA for over 30 years and would like to know if there is a methodology I can use to transition my thinking as simply and painlessly from MOA to MILLs.
As I am a complete novice when it comes to tactical scopes and have some but only minimal experience dialing for drop or wind deflection. This will also be my first endeavor into the world of tactical scopes or using the strata on the scopes reticle to make adjustments for drop and wind deflection.

My main issue is the distances to the targets in both NRL and 22lr PRS are listed in yards and if you have a scope in MILL/MILL and unless I am wrong, you will have to convert that distance into meters then figure your scope adjustments accordingly.
One other concern is I have yet to buy a scope for participating in NRL/PRS and will have to decide if it will be in MOA/MOA or MILL/MILL and need to make a choice.

If there is a good book on long range shooting that has a chapter on how a person use to MOA can transition to MILLs, please by all means someone tell me as I would gladly buy it to educate myself.

I realize there my be no other way other than to just re-learn to adjust a scope in MILLs but if anywhere on the internet would know I figured it would be here.

I range every target personally that I can, and convert any other ranges to meters. You want to learn Spanish, go where they don’t speak English. Don’t try to convert anything MOA to mils or back in the beginning. In practice, shoot multiple target at different ranges using meters and mils. Immersive experience going through the steps under pressure, even self imposed, imprints knowledge best.

Edit: Like several people said, don’t think about moving the impact on target by distance. Measure the angle (mils) in your reticle. Using meters does make it easier later to add adjustment distance back into your toolbox because 0.1mils(1click) is 1 cm at 100 meters. It’s 1.75cm at 175 M etc… Once you get familiar and comfortable, you will use all the various units and convert in your head easily. Don’t try that shit on match day though. Pick a procedure and unit, and work the process step by step.

 

[308pirate]

Once I get some experience and are comfortable in participating in NLR22 matches I'd love to come there and observe even compete in a match.

This makes zero sense.

How are you going to get comfortable participating in NRL22 matches before going to observe one?

 

[308pirate]

The point of my post is I am trying to understand how it all works so I can figure out the rest.
For example
I know from experience my one 22lr ammo (Eley Team) drops 7.5" at 100 yards and 56" at 200 so to hit a target at 100 yards using my MOA based scope and 1MOA at 100 yards = roughly 1" I will have to dial up off the top of my head 7.2-7.3 MOA to move my POI 7.5" up
This same bullet based on my shooting at 200, will impact 56" low at 200 yards and at 200 yards 1MOA = roughly 2" so to hit a target with this ammo I will have to come up close to 27MOA at 200.
I would imagine it's a very similar process using MILLs. I just want to know a good reference to teach myself how to use MILLs.
I could just use a phone app or cheat sheets but I'd like to actually understand how MILLs work.

No one here uses drop in inches. We use drop in angular measurements: either milliradians or minutes of angle.

If my ballistic solver tells me my bullet drops 16 MOA at 600 yards from a 100 yard zero, I don't care how many inches of drops that is. I simply turn the elevation turret from 0 to 16.0 and start shooting. Or I leave my scope on its 100 yard zero, place the 16 MOA drop line of the reticle on the 600 yd target and send it.

If my ballistic solver tells me my bullet drops 4.7 mils at 600 yards from a 100 yard zero, I don't care how many inches of drops that is. I simply turn the elevation turret from 0 to 4.7 and start shooting. Or I leave my scope on its 100 yard zero, place the 4.7 mils drop line of the reticle on the 600 yd target and send it.

1 minute of angle (actually one minute of arc) is an angle that subtends a distance of 1.047 inches per every 100 yards.

1 milliradian (1/1000 of a radian) is an angle that subtends a distance of 3.6 inches per every 100 yards.

Radian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Minute and second of arc - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's basic trigonometry. Remember all the things that you ignored in school saying to yourself "LOL I'm never going to need that shit"? This is one.

 

[lash]

Strlok has database of 22LR same with Kestrel and i imagine other ballistic solvers.

Here is the example from strlok



View attachment 7993534View attachment 7993535

Beat me to it. That’s exactly how I start. Then I verify the speed I’m actually getting out of the barrel, preferably using 20+ rounds. Then I verify impacts out to known distances to tweak the speed/bc for best results.

 

[lash]

Thanks to all for educating me and exposing just how little I actually knew about MOA or MILLs and how many misconceptions I have.
Will do as advised get a phone app and grind it out shooting. Been down the path of trying to learn something I know little or nothing about and ended up going down the wrong path and learning a lot of incorrect information and picked up some bad habits I later needed to correct. I am here asking for advice and information to avoid repeating those mistakes.



This is the advice I was looking for and in need of.

Excellent thank you.

Good for you. After you try it out and have more questions, come back to this thread and post them. There’s a lot of knowledge here and guys willing to share it.

 

[DMTYAGER]

This makes zero sense.

How are you going to get comfortable participating in NRL22 matches before going to observe one?

You are correct, should have stated I have been to several NRL22 matches at my rifle club and now I am comfortable enough to participate. And at every one someone (most were guys I hardly knew) offered to let me use their spare gun and even ammo to participate in the match, one guy offered me the use of his Voodoo no less.

But before I participate it occurred to me I will need to learn how to adjust my scope for POI as my club puts out targets from 10 yards to 200.
I say participate because it will likely be a while before I can actually compete.
My main goal right now is to get a solid foundation in my shooting skills and avoid picking up bad habits and have fun doing it.
I am rather astonished at just how much I enjoy shooting my 22lr rifles and actually enjoy this more than shooting any of my CF rifles.
I have never had this much fun shooting before and I have been shooting on a regular monthly basis for over 25 years now and save for a few serious injuries that kept me ambulatory for a while, extreme periods of OT or when I go elk hunting for three weeks, I doubt I have gone longer than three weeks in the last 25 years without shooting.

Been trying to get into 22lr precision shooting for nearly two years now. Actually took a transfer to a new department at my place of employment so I can get more time off to do things like shot in a NRL22 or PRS22 match as before besides my vacation time, I was only getting only one weekend plus 2 or 3 days off a month.
If anyone would have told me I'd end up enjoying shooting 22lr rifles so much I much prefer it over all of my CF rifles, I'd would've recommend they check themselves into a good drug rehab program, but that's exactly what has happened.

 

[DMTYAGER]

No one here uses drop in inches. We use drop in angular measurements: either milliradians or minutes of angle.

If my ballistic solver tells me my bullet drops 16 MOA at 600 yards from a 100 yard zero, I don't care how many inches of drops that is. I simply turn the elevation turret from 0 to 16.0 and start shooting. Or I leave my scope on its 100 yard zero, place the 16 MOA drop line of the reticle on the 600 yd target and send it.

If my ballistic solver tells me my bullet drops 4.7 mils at 600 yards from a 100 yard zero, I don't care how many inches of drops that is. I simply turn the elevation turret from 0 to 4.7 and start shooting. Or I leave my scope on its 100 yard zero, place the 4.7 mils drop line of the reticle on the 600 yd target and send it.

1 minute of angle (actually one minute of arc) is an angle that subtends a distance of 1.047 inches per every 100 yards.

1 milliradian (1/1000 of a radian) is an angle that subtends a distance of 3.6 inches per every 100 yards.

Thank you NOW I understand how this is all supposed to work.
I will stop thinking in inches and only in MIlls or MOA.

 

[Aftermath]

It MIGHT help you to understand what a radian is (and, thereafter, what 1/1000 of a radian is). I won't confuse you with explanations if you don't care or are not interested. It is interesting from a mathematical view but from a shooters view, it matters very little. Of note, there are actually different definitions of the milliradian, each with a different angular measurement.

 

[MDof2]

Don't transition.
Learn how to use MIL's, range target distance and size in MIL's, wind holds in MIL's and use it.
Learn when your solver says to dial 3.6MIL's then dial exactly that. Send it at 3.6MIL's and figure out if that is correct, or if you need to make an adjustment, + or - a 10th or 2 or 3 tents of a MIL, etc. Same with wind. Hold 2 tenth, 3 tenths, etc.
Don't transition. Learn how to use MIL's and go.

 

[smoothy8500]

I have been thinking strictly in MOA for over 30 years

but only minimal experience dialing for drop or wind deflection.

and picked up some bad habits I later needed to correct.

Well, maybe you're lucky that you haven't really picked up a bad habit with that limited experience.....

Now, just go to a match with your rifle and ballistic calculator, and tell everyone you are new. Plenty of people will stop and help.

 

[davsco]

The point of my post is I am trying to understand how it all works so I can figure out the rest.
For example
I know from experience my one 22lr ammo (Eley Team) drops 7.5" at 100 yards and 56" at 200 so to hit a target at 100 yards using my MOA based scope and 1MOA at 100 yards = roughly 1" I will have to dial up off the top of my head 7.2-7.3 MOA to move my POI 7.5" up

you're just doing the same math but instead of one moa roughly equating to an inch at 100 yds, one mil equates to roughly 3.6 inches or roughly 3.6 moa at 100 yds. just like .40 inches = 10mm, just different way of saying the same thing (and to be clear, i'm not saying that moa and mils are sae or metric...).

the good news is you don't have to remember or really know or measure anything. zero your gun at whatever distance you want. plug that distance, muzzle velocity, bullet wt and bc etc into whatever ballistic program. that will tell you theoretical drops at every distance. actually shoot at those distances using the holds/dials from your program. using the horizontal hash lines on your scope, see how high or low you actually are, and either hold the number of lines different, or dial that difference. that gives you actual dope. no measurements, no real math or conversions.

 

[lash]

Well, maybe you're lucky that you haven't really picked up a bad habit with that limited experience.....

Now, just go to a match with your rifle and ballistic calculator, and tell everyone you are new. Plenty of people will stop and help.

I agree with this. Take the plunge now or fiddle around for another year and then kick yourself for not doing it earlier.

 

[308pirate]

You are correct, should have stated I have been to several NRL22 matches at my rifle club and now I am comfortable enough to participate. And at every one someone (most were guys I hardly knew) offered to let me use their spare gun and even ammo to participate in the match, one guy offered me the use of his Voodoo no less.

But before I participate it occurred to me I will need to learn how to adjust my scope for POI as my club puts out targets from 10 yards to 200.
I say participate because it will likely be a while before I can actually compete.
My main goal right now is to get a solid foundation in my shooting skills and avoid picking up bad habits and have fun doing it.
I am rather astonished at just how much I enjoy shooting my 22lr rifles and actually enjoy this more than shooting any of my CF rifles.
I have never had this much fun shooting before and I have been shooting on a regular monthly basis for over 25 years now and save for a few serious injuries that kept me ambulatory for a while, extreme periods of OT or when I go elk hunting for three weeks, I doubt I have gone longer than three weeks in the last 25 years without shooting.

Been trying to get into 22lr precision shooting for nearly two years now. Actually took a transfer to a new department at my place of employment so I can get more time off to do things like shot in a NRL22 or PRS22 match as before besides my vacation time, I was only getting only one weekend plus 2 or 3 days off a month.
If anyone would have told me I'd end up enjoying shooting 22lr rifles so much I much prefer it over all of my CF rifles, I'd would've recommend they check themselves into a good drug rehab program, but that's exactly what has happened.

Let me give you some advice as someone who has been actively competing in several shooting sports since 1999 (skeet, sporting clays, service rifle, NRA long range, IDPA, USPSA) and has always jumped in with both feet without knowing fuck all about it other than reading the rulebook...............

Just......Do......It........

Stop me if you've heard this before: I need to practice/get better before going to a competition.

The people who say that either never go or waste a bunch of time and ammo trying to get "better" in a sport they don't understand.

By all means make a dope chart for your rifle/ammo once you get your new scope mounted. After that, download the NRL22 rulebook, read it once, understand what safety mistakes will get you disqualified from a match so you're aware, then..............get the fuck out there and compete!

There is no other way to learn how to play a shooting sport other than to.........play it.

 

[DocRDS]

Your reticle is a ruler. Use it.

When I have a tape measure, if I need to read it in inches, i read the inches side--if I need to read cm, i read the cm side. Nothing changes.

Put this over the target. Measure where you hit to where you aim. Adjust. Profit.
in your ballistics software switch from MOA to MIL.
Profit.

Just......Do......It........

This. Absolutely This. Showed up to an F-class shoot last week. I have taken about 5 shots at 1000 (all in Franks class btw). I don't have a legal f-class rifle cause I am civilized and shoot suppressed (and also lazy and not removing the QD devices). They got me sqaured away and banging in no time pronto.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Stop thinking of converting things.


7 Mag, 162 ELDM at 2980.
In MILs it's 19.6 (rounded up)

If I wanted to switch to a MOA optic, then I'd just touch the Dope and it brings up in MOA and IPHY.
All three are the same amount with different units of measurement.
The unit could be bananas, axe handles or Skittles. None of that matters.

I switched to MILs 3-1/2 years ago. It took all of three or four shots to plant it solidly in my noggin.

 

[cliffy110]

May I suggest listening to Chris Way's podcast that he put out this week? I had a LOT of the same concerns as you're expressing but had settled on MOA only because in the model I wanted, it was all I could get and I really didn't know if I was making a mistake. After listening to Chris and really contemplating what he is communicating, I realized that it just doesn't matter. At all. If you're comfortable with MOA, use it. If you want to lean mrad, do it. Pick one and don't overthink it.

 

[JAS-SH]

you're just doing the same math but instead of one moa roughly equating to an inch at 100 yds, one mil equates to roughly 3.6 inches...

This is true but it is kind of misleading for new MRAD shooters. It's important to note the scope adjustments or "clicks" as well.

In an MOA scope the adjustments, and so the reticle markings as well go down to 1/4 MOA. That's .26-inches (because 1 MOA is not 1-inch - it's 1.047 inches. And errors are cumulative downrange! So, we are already out of the inch and yard comfort zone!

Now, for an MRAD scope the adjustments and markings on the reticle are .1 MIL. That is .36 inches. What's important to know is that 3 clicks of the .1MIL scope gives you 1.08-inches at 100 yards, 2.16-inches at 200, etc. - very close to MOA. Most newbies see the 3.6/MIL at 100 and think it is less precise - it is not.

MRADs (Milliradians - Mils) is a 10 base ten numerical system based on Radians. Base ten is very easy to use.

MOA which is based on degrees and minutes of angle comes from astronomy, first used by the Sumerians thousands of years ago and it is a base 60 or sexagesimal system. It's a great system for astronomy and navigation - not so much for doing math in your head.

The MIL system came about around the turn to the 20th century, used by the French for artillery (rifles are a form of artillery by the by). It is simple to use quickly because it is a base 10 system. That is especially true for the metric system because it too is a base 10 system.

The problem for most Americans is that we use a "baseless" system for measuring distance - the inch, the foot, yard, mile, etc. We are one of just three countries in the world that do not use the standard metric system. So, to talk to some one else while using Mils we need yards, and inches when we shoot.

Interestingly and off topic, master carpenters here in the US have been going to metric because it is a lot more precise, using millimeters rather than our fractional system for measurements.

But thanks to the simplicity of the MIL system it is very easy to do conversions. You only need to remember three numbers:

1000 - the number of milliradians (MRADs) in a radian, .36 inches = .1 MRADs (the scope clicks) at 100 yards, and lastly 36-inches = 1 MRAD at 1000 yards

That's basically it. You only have to remember three numbers: 1000 and .36 and 36. All the interim ranges are just multipliers. Example: shooting at 500 yards? - then divide 36 by 2 and 1 MRAD is 18 inches at 500 yards, and so on. Oh, and if you divide 1000 by 36 you get 27.8 - a conversion factor to yards and inches, that's for another time.

 

[gonzaga]

Divide your MOA by 3 for a real fast solution. Then shoot said solution and see if it lines up. Write it down.
Then go on to the next yardage. Repeat.
Then go back and confirm your written data.
It's so simple, don't over think it.

 

[chungus]

Now, for an MRAD scope the adjustments and markings on the reticle are .1 MIL. That is .36 inches. What's important to know is that 3 clicks of the .1MIL scope gives you 1.08-inches at 100 yards, 2.16-inches at 200, etc. - very close to MOA. Most newbies see the 3.6/MIL at 100 and think it is less precise - it is not.


But thanks to the simplicity of the MIL system it is very easy to do conversions. You only need to remember three numbers:

1000 - the number of milliradians (MRADs) in a radian, .36 inches = .1 MRADs (the scope clicks) at 100 yards, and lastly 36-inches = 1 MRAD at 1000 yards

That's basically it. You only have to remember three numbers: 1000 and .36 and 36. All the interim ranges are just multipliers. Example: shooting at 500 yards? - then divide 36 by 2 and 1 MRAD is 18 inches at 500 yards, and so on. Oh, and if you divide 1000 by 36 you get 27.8 - a conversion factor to yards and inches, that's for another time.

Actually it is less precise. A typical scope with 1/4 MOA clicks is .26” at 100 yards. A .1 mrad click is .36”. The MOA adjustment is slightly more precise. Very few people shoot good enough for this difference to matter but it is there.

i agree on your three numbers but I would stress to stop thinking about linear measurements completely. I don’t care if you are using MOA or MIL when shooting targets at different distances angular measurements make way more sense than linear measurements.

For example if you hit a target 4” left at 100 yards you would need to adjust 4 MOA right or 1.1 mrad right. Now let’s say you hit 4”left at 200 yards. Do you adjust 4 MOA right or 1.1 mrad? No you only need to adjust 2 MOA right or .6 mrad. You see regardless if you are using MOA or MIL the relationship between linear distance on the target to MOA or MILs changes with distance to the target. You can avoid all this confusion by simply measuring your impacts in MOA or MILs and not inches and then what you measure is a direct adjustment on your scope with no math and it works at any distance.

 

[JAS-SH]

Actually it is less precise. A typical scope with 1/4 MOA clicks is .26” at 100 yards. A .1 mrad click is .36”. The MOA adjustment is slightly more precise. Very few people shoot good enough for this difference to matter but it is there.

i agree on your three numbers but I would stress to stop thinking about linear measurements completely. I don’t care if you are using MOA or MIL when shooting targets at different distances angular measurements make way more sense than linear measurements.

For example if you hit a target 4” left at 100 yards you would need to adjust 4 MOA right or 1.1 mrad right. Now let’s say you hit 4”left at 200 yards. Do you adjust 4 MOA right or 1.1 mrad? No you only need to adjust 2 MOA right or .6 mrad. You see regardless if you are using MOA or MIL the relationship between linear distance on the target to MOA or MILs changes with distance to the target. You can avoid all this confusion by simply measuring your impacts in MOA or MILs and not inches and then what you measure is a direct adjustment on your scope with no math and it works at any distance.

Technically you are correct. I did state those numbers above myself as to clicks when talking strictly about the precision of the instruments. So I'll talk about that now. For all purposes the MIL system is not less precise. And in fact, it is more precise when using the metric system. In the example in your last paragrah you jumped over to accuracy - hitting the center, that's a different thing from instrumental precision and a whole different discussion.

I use MOA all the time but for astrophotography, not for shooting. In astrophotography the sky is a moving target so telescope mounts have to be VERY precise to track the sky. A mechanical error of 2 arcseconds will result in an image with oblong stars. One arcsecond by the way is 1/3600 of a degree...

The difference you and I stated is for the precision of instrument clicks and said stated difference is only 1/10 of an inch (.36-.26). The reality is that 1/10 of an inch precision is not only VERY small, but it is also not less precise and I'll explain why below:

Both MOA and MRAD systems use approximations. Let's take an inch at 100 yards. These approximations get larger as the angle, and consequently, the distance increases (you did mention that). That is why above I mentioned that three clicks on a .1 MIL scope are 1.08 inches whereas in MOA that approximation (4-clicks) is 1.047. taking that into account, the approximation error is now down to .033. That is three one hundreds of an inch!

And it gets worse for MOA. MRAD although interchangeable within numerical systems really shines when using the metric system where it was designed to be used. And there the approximation error in .1 MIL using 1 centimeter at 100 meters is 3.3×10−7%. That's .00000033 for a .1 MIL angle approximation error! The formulas for approximation errors are complex, but available on the internet.

These are very good reasons why the US military adopted both the Metric and MRAD systems. The system is more precise.

 

[smoothy8500]

The formulas for approximation errors are complex, but available on the internet.

And constantly repeated here....

 

[spamassassin]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, "thinks" in units of angular measure. Step one, pound that into das skull. If it won't go, try a few light taps with a hammer. It worked for me. The difference between the two units of angular measure is not something anyone consciously thinks about. When people say that they think in MOA or think in MIL then I can say with a fair amount of confidence that they spend a fair amount of time not thinking at all and that many of their teachers failed in their job. There is no effort to transition and there's no transition. None at all. Dope given in one unit of measure is dialed the same as in the other, it's just how many clicks are between whole number values that changes and that's always indicated on the turret which removes the need to think about anything more complex than turning a dial to an indicated value.

Once you accept the above simple facts then the facile silliness of concerning oneself with it at all will become glaringly obvious and you can get on with the real world matter at hand, reprinting all of your dope cards.

 

[Ledzep]

Buy a mil scope and use it for a few outings and you will quickly find that the base-10 nature of things is dramatically better than whatever you thought was "convenient" about having MOA nearly match up with 1" per 100yd.

Distance and mils are all you need to think about. Fuck inches, fuck clicks. Target is X distance and requires Y mils. Carry on.

 

[Taylorbok]

The only time that the measurements actually matter is when you don't know target distance and you are using your reticle to measure the target and estimate the range.
Distance in meters= (target cm/mil) x 10
this formula gets muddied up when using yards or inches.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

For example if you hit a target 4” left at 100 yards you would need to adjust 4 MOA right or 1.1 mrad right. Now let’s say you hit 4”left at 200 yards. Do you adjust 4 MOA right or 1.1 mrad? No you only need to adjust 2 MOA right or .6 mrad.

Why make it so complicated. You didn't hit 4 inches left. You hit 4 MOA left. Your reticle says so. Adjust 4 MOA. End of story. Leave inches out of it.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Been shooting MOA since the Pharaoh’s daughter adopted Moses. Purchased a Leupold Mark5HD in 5-25 with the PR2-MIL reticle. Easiest changeover ever. Mils on the reticle match elevation and windage knobs. See an error on the target, put the center of the cross hairs on the intended target area, see how many marks over, under or above in the marks on the crosshair, adjust accordingly and go for it. Can be done with adjustment knobs or simply by adjusting holds. Technically it would work with MOA or MILRAD, but everyone is going MILRAD so that is the recommended solution.

As said, its not inches, its angles. The reticle does not tell you how many inches to adjust, but what angle adjustment needs to be made.

It really is much easier to do than to explain. Think marks on the reticle, not measurement on a ruler.

 

[chungus]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, "thinks" in units of angular measure. Step one, pound that into das skull. If it won't go, try a few light taps with a hammer. It worked for me. The difference between the two units of angular measure is not something anyone consciously thinks about. When people say that they think in MOA or think in MIL then I can say with a fair amount of confidence that they spend a fair amount of time not thinking at all and that many of their teachers failed in their job. There is no effort to transition and there's no transition. None at all. Dope given in one unit of measure is dialed the same as in the other, it's just how many clicks are between whole number values that changes and that's always indicated on the turret which removes the need to think about anything more complex than turning a dial to an indicated value.

Once you accept the above simple facts then the facile silliness of concerning oneself with it at all will become glaringly obvious and you can get on with the real world matter at hand, reprinting all of your dope cards.

What do mean nobody thinks in terms on angular measure? I do and I am sure many others do as well. My reticle is a built in measuring stick. When I am sighting in my rifles I shoot the target and then use my reticle to determine how many mils I am off in windage and elevation and adjust the scope accordingly. I have no idea how many inches it is. I don't walk down there to the target with a tape measure.

 

[chungus]

Why make it so complicated. You didn't hit 4 inches left. You hit 4 MOA left. Your reticle says so. Adjust 4 MOA. End of story. Leave inches out of it.

That was exactly my point.

 

[JAS-SH]

Why make it so complicated. You didn't hit 4 inches left. You hit 4 MOA left. Your reticle says so. Adjust 4 MOA. End of story. Leave inches out of it.

Well, I am all with you as far as 200 yards with that system but it gets real difficult to spot 6mm shots on paper at 300 with mirage and downright impossible at 600 even without mirage and with a high power spotting scope. Been there done that.

Shooting steel, no issues. even a 6mm round makes a big splat on steel at 600.

And I don't live in the high desert - humid, hot Florida...

 

[JAS-SH]

And constantly repeated here....

LOL! You mean this one?

 

[spamassassin]

What do mean nobody thinks in terms on angular measure? I do and I am sure many others do as well. My reticle is a built in measuring stick. When I am sighting in my rifles I shoot the target and then use my reticle to determine how many mils I am off in windage and elevation and adjust the scope accordingly. I have no idea how many inches it is. I don't walk down there to the target with a tape measure.

All this shows is that you don't understand what I wrote. That's not a burn, it's just a case of someone not knowing what they don't know and having had incompetent geometry teachers or no geometry teachers at all, all of which are common enough in this world. When you call your reticle a measuring stick you definitively demonstrate that I'm right and unknowingly contradict yourself. A measuring stick is a tool to measure linear distances. Using one thing that measures the world in angular units of measure to adjust another thing that is calibrated to the same unit of angular measure is not thinking in angular units of measure and saying it is is demonstrative of not thinking at all. What you're describing is nothing more than using 2 devices calibrated to the same angular unit of measure as a synthetic tool for linear measurements.

 

[spamassassin]

Well, I am all with you as far as 200 yards with that system but it gets real difficult to spot 6mm shots on paper at 300 with mirage and downright impossible at 600 even without mirage and with a high power spotting scope. Been there done that.

Shooting steel, no issues. even a 6mm round makes a big splat on steel at 600.

And I don't live in the high desert - humid, hot Florida...

This is the topical equivalent of, "I like peanut butter.Can you swim?"

 

[Taylorbok]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, "thinks" in units of angular measure.

I'd revisit this to say when someone tells you that's a 16" square at 800 yards how does your brain compute that?
1) oh that's roughly 2 moa
2) oh that's roughly .6 mil.