Hunting and understanding bullets reading?

[opherman47]

I don't know anything about rifles other than what I learned in the Army, effective range, zeroing etc. So it's hard for me to understand some basic things. Does anyone have some links or book recommendations so I can learn. One of the things I don't understand is bullet choice.

What process does someone walk through to choose a round for hunting? Where can I read about that besides these seemingly anecdotal articles on the web.

Perhaps someone could walk me through that process for instance with the .277 furry the new army version with the dual metal case. Like I understand oh look more powder, look at the muzzle velocity in a short barrel, look at it's unique arc and drop. But how does one use that information for any round to consider how it actually does killing something? Bullet grain etc?

How would someone evaluate 6.5 cm vs 300 win mag for elk or moose? Or buffalo?

Thanks in advance for any reading you would suggest or advice you might want to type.

In the army they just give you gear and you use it... I don't know anything about why those choices get made.

 

[mick243]

in the military, rifle and ammunition combinations are designed to remove enemy combatants ability to fight... not neccissarily to kill effectively - if you kill an enemy, you remove 1 from the battlefield, if you maim them you remove them and potentially a few extra to care for them/remove them to aid, and the screaming etc has a detrimental effect on their buddies morale.

target rifle/ammo the only consideration is precision and accuracy at the target, no consideration at all to terminal effects. some target bullets have excellent terminal ballistic effects on game, some dont.

hunting rifle/ammo needs to have suitable accuracy and precision to get the bullet within the kill zone of the target animal at whatever distance you are engaging at with enough velocity and energy, and then the bullet needs to deliver appropriate terminal effects (depending on the game, you may need a bullet that holds together to go through bone, thick crusted mud, heavy hide etc and still get into the vitals and do enough damage for a clean kill. on other game you might want a bullet that disintegrates explosively)


given your choice of 6.5 v 300wm on moose or elk, Id take the 300 every time with a known good hunting round. sure a 6.5 can do the job, but the 300 can do it better and has a wider selection of suitable ammo.

but at the end of the day, as long as the rifle is suitable (eg dont hunt elk with a 22lr) your profficiency matters a whole lot more than an extra few footpounds delivered, or an extra mm of diameter. dont take an unfamiliar rifle on any hunt. get very good with what you have.

 

[DJL2]

www.ballisticstudies.com

Read the article on effective game killing. Feel free to read the knowledge base articles on the cartridges you are interested in.

General rules:
- marksmanship rules, good bullets are slightly more forgiving, but they won’t save a bad shot
- impact velocity is hugely important to bullet function
- match the bullet to the game and the cartridge, don’t expect a “do it all” choice

 

[DocRDS]

The above link is a good resource-- general rule of thumb--use a hollow point/expanding bullet (ironically most rifle match bullets are HP).

Some of the solids make good hunting rounds, but generally, if it's marketed as a hunting round, it's g2g. And as stated, shot placement > bullet choice.

 

[wvfarrier]

Hunting= Some type of expanding projectile but based on the velocity and game targeted.

Target= The best FMJ/solid type projectile. You will need to develop a load.that your weapon likes or find fsctory ammo it likes.

Military= Restricted (under geneva convention) to non expanding ammo

 

[DocRDS]

Hunting= Some type of expanding projectile but based on the velocity and game targeted.

Target= The best FMJ/solid type MATCH projectile. You will need to develop a load.that your weapon likes or find fsctory ammo it likes.

Military= Restricted (under geneva convention) to non expanding ammo

Friends don't let friends shoot FMJ for targets. There are Match Solids. But those Bergers/ELD-M/SMK are anything but FMJ. They are actually very close to hunting bullet design. (Apologes to Barnes, Nosler I don't have cross sections at the quick)

ELD-X

ELD-M

Berger Hunting:

Berger Target:

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Moose and buffalo, definitely want to step up a bit (you can obviously kill both with a 6.5, but no need to push it). If you already have a 300wm, use it. If not, I'd personally look towards the 300 prc.

Run Berger, Hornady, or any other reputable bullet manufacturer. Can use their target bullets to as well when you're talking Berger and Hornady. They will be fine.

Focus more on marksmanship. If you shoot something in the heart or head, it's going to die regardless (obviously the bullet needs to penetrate whatever barrier is between the bullet and the heart or head. But if you're running a .300 something and the velocity is high enough, most any bullet is going to get the job done).

Shameless plug: if you don't have a rifle already, we have TL3's, origins, a couple ruckus, a couple nucleus, and I believe some falkor actions on hand. Along with proof carbon barrels. Can get you a build done asap in the $3500-$5k area depending on stock choice and such.

 

[The D]

Another good forum for hunting info is

Long Range Hunting Forum

The friendliest hunting community to discuss long range shooting equipment, gear and techniques. Join today for FREE!

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[supercorndogs]

Friends don't let friends shoot FMJ for targets. There are Match Solids. But those Bergers/ELD-M/SMK are anything but FMJ. They are actually very close to hunting bullet design. (Apologes to Barnes, Nosler I don't have cross sections at the quick)

ELD-X
View attachment 8066930

ELD-M
View attachment 8066931

Berger Hunting:
View attachment 8066933
Berger Target:
View attachment 8066934

Just to add very little to this FMJs normally don't shoot very well either.

 

[opherman47]

Moose and buffalo, definitely want to step up a bit (you can obviously kill both with a 6.5, but no need to push it). If you already have a 300wm, use it. If not, I'd personally look towards the 300 prc.

Run Berger, Hornady, or any other reputable bullet manufacturer. Can use their target bullets to as well when you're talking Berger and Hornady. They will be fine.

Focus more on marksmanship. If you shoot something in the heart or head, it's going to die regardless (obviously the bullet needs to penetrate whatever barrier is between the bullet and the heart or head. But if you're running a .300 something and the velocity is high enough, most any bullet is going to get the job done).

Shameless plug: if you don't have a rifle already, we have TL3's, origins, a couple ruckus, a couple nucleus, and I believe some falkor actions on hand. Along with proof carbon barrels. Can get you a build done asap in the $3500-$5k area depending on stock choice and such.


View attachment 8067236

This is all very good and generalized information... But what I want to know is why... Like if I was an engineer at Hornady. How and why would I design a bullet and for what game. The internet is full of generalized recommendations like this... This mustang cartridge vs that, and recommendations, but not much analysis or proof... The one article above at ballistic studies had some good info, like fps etc, but was sadly lacking on the "why and science" hopefully there is something more comprehensive than that... Something like the Bryan litz for hunting bullets, design. ???

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

This is all very good and generalized information... But what I want to know is why... Like if I was an engineer at Hornady. How and why would I design a bullet and for what game. The internet is full of generalized recommendations like this... This mustang cartridge vs that, and recommendations, but not much analysis or proof... The one article above at ballistic studies had some good info, like fps etc, but was sadly lacking on the "why and science" hopefully there is something more comprehensive than that... Something like the Bryan litz for hunting bullets, design. ???

Unfortunately, you’ll find that many, many things in this industry are very small differences.

Check out the Berger website and their articles. You’ll get some better idea.

You’ll also find very contradictory information on hunting bullets. What one person or company thinks is important or matters is at odds with another. Hence the generalization from most that have a decent understanding.

And it will become more specific as to the application more so than generalized “hunting” bullets.

I apologize if this seems like a misdirection, but I’m sure you’re already finding it’s not as black and white as many of us think it should be.

 

[opherman47]

Unfortunately, you’ll find that many, many things in this industry are very small differences.

Check out the Berger website and their articles. You’ll get some better idea.

You’ll also find very contradictory information on hunting bullets. What one person or company thinks is important or matters is at odds with another. Hence the generalization from most that have a decent understanding.

And it will become more specific as to the application more so than generalized “hunting” bullets.

I apologize if this seems like a misdirection, but I’m sure you’re already finding it’s not as black and white as many of us think it should be.

Indeed... Just hoping to find more science based discussion/approaches to different applications etc... Thank you for your input

 

[Crews]

I think Hornady ELD-M / ELD-X factory box ammo is the best balance of ballistic + terminal performance, and cost for almost any modern rifle. Get some of that, a rifle that doesn’t have heavy recoil, and focus on learning how to put the bullet where it needs to go.

 

[Aftermath]

This is all very good and generalized information... But what I want to know is why... Like if I was an engineer at Hornady. How and why would I design a bullet and for what game. The internet is full of generalized recommendations like this... This mustang cartridge vs that, and recommendations, but not much analysis or proof... The one article above at ballistic studies had some good info, like fps etc, but was sadly lacking on the "why and science" hopefully there is something more comprehensive than that... Something like the Bryan litz for hunting bullets, design. ???

What is average body weight of the game animal?
Figure an average max range you would ethically take a shot at said game animal.
Figure velocity upon impact is 2000 fps. This number is a bit arbitrary but will suffice and is nice to do the arithmetic with.
What is foot pounds of energy needed to match or exceed the body weight of said game animal at said average max range at 2000 fps?
What weight of bullet will provide that?
Choose any of the big name bullets designed for hunting in that weight range.
The big name cartridge manufacturers are going to plan in excess for max range, body weight and likely plan on less velocity...all in the name of making sure they are providing for the least common denominator sort of thing.

One might also consider the TKO of the components. IMHO, it is useful as a way to compare but, again, use the velocity at impact instead of at the muzzle.

 

[opherman47]

I think Hornady ELD-M / ELD-X factory box ammo is the best balance of ballistic + terminal performance, and cost for almost any modern rifle. Get some of that, a rifle that doesn’t have heavy recoil, and focus on learning how to put the bullet where it needs to go.

I have a bajillion hours putting the bullet where it needs to go from my many years in the infantry...

What is average body weight of the game animal?
Figure an average max range you would ethically take a shot at said game animal.
Figure velocity upon impact is 2000 fps. This number is a bit arbitrary but will suffice and is nice to do the arithmetic with.
What is foot pounds of energy needed to match or exceed the body weight of said game animal at said average max range at 2000 fps?
What weight of bullet will provide that?
Choose any of the big name bullets designed for hunting in that weight range.
The big name cartridge manufacturers are going to plan in excess for max range, body weight and likely plan on less velocity...all in the name of making sure they are providing for the least common denominator sort of thing.

One might also consider the TKO of the components. IMHO, it is useful as a way to compare but, again, use the velocity at impact instead of at the muzzle.

This is more inline with what I'm looking for... Where would I find a chart for foot pounds of energy needed to match body weight? Is it possible to have too much velocity in the bullet just goes clean through not doing the damage you would want? Why does the body weight of the whole animal matter when you are just trying to hit it in the vitals?

 

[Aftermath]

Where would I find a chart for foot pounds of energy needed to match body weight?

The math is simple and not hard to find if you do a rudimentary search.

Is it possible to have too much velocity in the bullet just goes clean through not doing the damage you would want?

Poorly worded question but I'll try to answer what I think you are asking. "Too much velocity"...if this is the scneario, the bullet will effectively disintegrate upon initial impact and not penetrate very deep.

Why does the body weight of the whole animal matter when you are just trying to hit it in the vitals?

Think about that...what does YOUR heart weigh? 1 pound? Do you think you would be injured much from an impact with 1 foot pound of energy?

 

[XTREM HTR16]

I don't know anything about rifles other than what I learned in the Army, effective range, zeroing etc. So it's hard for me to understand some basic things. Does anyone have some links or book recommendations so I can learn. One of the things I don't understand is bullet choice.

What process does someone walk through to choose a round for hunting? Where can I read about that besides these seemingly anecdotal articles on the web.

Perhaps someone could walk me through that process for instance with the .277 furry the new army version with the dual metal case. Like I understand oh look more powder, look at the muzzle velocity in a short barrel, look at it's unique arc and drop. But how does one use that information for any round to consider how it actually does killing something? Bullet grain etc?

How would someone evaluate 6.5 cm vs 300 win mag for elk or moose? Or buffalo?

Thanks in advance for any reading you would suggest or advice you might want to type.

In the army they just give you gear and you use it... I don't know anything about why those choices get made.

John Barsness is a very practical writer and hunter, his knowledge of hunting bullets and loads that work is spot on. He's hunted with Walt Berger, Chub Eastman, some Nosler guys, Steve Timm and many more, so has used a wide variety of rifles and bullets to just kill all kinds of animals.

Start with this book and you'll want to pick more up...

The Big Book of Gun Gack | Rifles and Recipes

The Big Book of Gun Gack has 437 pages of, facts, loads, guns, and the decisions that doom a cartridge to failure and another to rock star status.

www.riflesandrecipes.com

 

[opherman47]

The math is simple and not hard to find if you do a rudimentary search.

Poorly worded question but I'll try to answer what I think you are asking. "Too much velocity"...if this is the scneario, the bullet will effectively disintegrate upon initial impact and not penetrate very deep.

Think about that...what does YOUR heart weigh? 1 pound? Do you think you would be injured much from an impact with 1 foot pound of energy?

If the math is not hard perhaps you could share a link I would be interested... Theoretically you could have a bullet that would just pass through I would think that the mushrooming type would not. And I don't think the total weight of an animal would give you what would need to happen to penetrate the initial skin and go through the vitals. So no I don't think the 1 lb analogy would be what I was saying at all.

 

[opherman47]

Ammo: Is Your Hunting Bullet Lethal Enough?

Bullet lethality is defined by the damage it does and the energy it dumps once it reaches a target. How do new bullets measure up in these departments?

gundigest.com

Like this link talks about what velocity takes the bullet to deform so that would probably deal with range and powder load and I was just hoping there was some place I could find all that

 

[Cornpoop69]

This is all very good and generalized information... But what I want to know is why... Like if I was an engineer at Hornady. How and why would I design a bullet and for what game. The internet is full of generalized recommendations like this... This mustang cartridge vs that, and recommendations, but not much analysis or proof... The one article above at ballistic studies had some good info, like fps etc, but was sadly lacking on the "why and science" hopefully there is something more comprehensive than that... Something like the Bryan litz for hunting bullets, design. ???

 

[HaydenLane]

The most important thing is to ignore anyone that mentions energy as a metric to measure killing ability.

If you really wanna go down the rabbit hole google “Martin Fackler ballistics.” You probably won’t find much helpful info especially as it pertains directly to modern bullets, but you will find out how or why things die.

 

[opherman47]

The most important thing is to ignore anyone that mentions energy as a metric to measure killing ability.

If you really wanna go down the rabbit hole google “Martin Fackler ballistics.” You probably won’t find much helpful info especially as it pertains directly to modern bullets, but you will find out how or why things die.

Thanks for mentioning his name it looks like he has a lot of really good stuff out I will definitely go down that rabbit hole. For instance the below link calls into question velocity but these things are bandied about all over the place. That's the kind of stuff that is really challenging to sort out all the unverified information. There is so.much anecdote and heuristic that it is quite maddening.

https://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

 

[HaydenLane]

Thanks for mentioning his name it looks like he has a lot of really good stuff out I will definitely go down that rabbit hole. For instance the below link calls into question velocity but these things are bandied about all over the place. That's the kind of stuff that is really challenging to sort out all the unverified information. There is so.much anecdote and heuristic that it is quite maddening.

https://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

I hope you’re able to find what you’re looking for. Conversations on this topic are prevalent on Rokslide, and a member not well liked here (Formidilosus) has regularly cited and linked Fackler, as well as another whose name I can’t remember. A search over there may get you going.

It’s a deep rabbit hole that I never cared to dive down myself. If you find anything of particular interest share it here.

 

[Aftermath]

If the math is not hard perhaps you could share a link I would be interested... Theoretically you could have a bullet that would just pass through I would think that the mushrooming type would not. And I don't think the total weight of an animal would give you what would need to happen to penetrate the initial skin and go through the vitals. But only considering "the vitals" did? So no I don't think the 1 lb analogy would be what I was saying at all.

It appears you are unwilling or unable to do your own research. It also appears that you do not have an understanding of fairly basic physics and unable to formulate the question for the answer you seek. I suggest you utilize the research already performed FOR you by others and just chalk up the results as something on the order of magical.

Realize that almost all things die when the perforation results in a loss of blood greater than the organisms capacity to replace it (or distribute it) and the resulting loss of blood pressure.

Or, you could use that GI Bill and get some education.

 

[opherman47]

It appears you are unwilling or unable to do your own research. It also appears that you do not have an understanding of fairly basic physics and unable to formulate the question for the answer you seek. I suggest you utilize the research already performed FOR you by others and just chalk up the results as something on the order of magical.

Realize that almost all things die when the perforation results in a loss of blood greater than the organisms capacity to replace it (or distribute it) and the resulting loss of blood pressure.

Or, you could use that GI Bill and get some education.

Hey I really appreciate the advice you gave thank you so much for taking the time. At the end of the day everyone can just do their best to understand and impart knowledge, I may just be too egregiously stupid for proper Googling or understanding. I apologize if I wasted your life and time, I truly wish you the best. Thank you for your attempts to reach a moron on the internet anyways. Right now the Martin Fackler information seem to be most in line with the kind of information I'm looking for.

Be well Mr aftermath

 

[Aftermath]

Hey I really appreciate the advice you gave thank you so much for taking the time. At the end of the day everyone can just do their best to understand and impart knowledge, I may just be too egregiously stupid for proper Googling or understanding. I apologize if I wasted your life and time, I truly wish you the best. Thank you for your attempts to reach a moron on the internet anyways. Right now the Martin Fackler information seem to be most in line with the kind of information I'm looking for.

Be well Mr aftermath

Here is some light reading for you to do. There are some numbers in it. Some might even be familiar to you.

Wound ballistics of high-velocity cartridges

The 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge fired from the M-16 rifle series (including the AR-15) is a 55 (or 62) grain bullet roughly three times the speed of modern handgun rounds

www.police1.com

Bullet Expansion: Velocity Is The Deciding Factor

Bullet expansion is a tricky subject. You might think the lead-core variety mushrooms more quickly than a solid-copper one, but it's not the case.

gundigest.com

Bullets Too Fast to Expand? — Ron Spomer Outdoors

Can some cartridges shoot bullets too fast to expand in game? This has been a common theory since at least the advent of the 270 Win, but...

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

There’s No Such Thing as a Fast-Expanding Bullet. (Or Even an Expanding One.)

Do so-called fast-expanding bullets really expand faster? Actually, they don't. All bullets deform in roughly the same amount of time.

www.fieldandstream.com

There’s No Such Thing as a Fast-Expanding Bullet. (Or Even an Expanding One.)

Do so-called fast-expanding bullets really expand faster? Actually, they don't. All bullets deform in roughly the same amount of time.

www.fieldandstream.com

Effective Game Killing

Effective game killing- How bullets kill and where to aim to ensure a fast clean kill.

www.ballisticstudies.com

Terminal Ballistics: How Bullets Wound and Kill - Everyday Marksman

In this article, we're digging into terminal ballistics: the science of what happens when the bullet impacts a target. In particular, we're going over the history of the research and what we know today about how bullets wound and kill a target.

www.everydaymarksman.co

The Wound Channel Tests 7.62/.308 M80A1 EPR and It Is GLORIOUS -

Previously, we looked at the incredible damage and penetration caused by the US Army’s new M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round (EPR), thanks to a video published by William of the Wound Channel. What happens, though, when that kind of performance is scaled up to .30 cal size and fired from a .308...

www.thefirearmblog.com

Bullet lethality: energy vs velocity

I posted this on another forum and it’s not really going anywhere. I’m hoping Broz and others like him will jump in and provide data. I know that I may have to explain myself several times to get my thoughts across and I hope I don’t insult anyone in the process.... so here we go. I see a lot of...

www.longrangeonly.com

 

[Newbie2020]

Good read

So…

My feeble take on the reading:

Speed kills

That explains why there’s so little visible or measurable difference between the ELD-M and ELD-X and the Berger bullets for hunting vs target: speed and tumbling due to destabilization after impact seems to be the primary goal for hunting.

The older slower cartridges needed a huge soft point to mushroom more extremely to create a more devastating wound channel because they lacked sufficient speed to initiate the tumbling due to destabilization.

 

[opherman47]

Good read

So…

My feeble take on the reading:

Speed kills

That explains why there’s so little visible or measurable difference between the ELD-M and ELD-X and the Berger bullets for hunting vs target: speed and tumbling due to destabilization after impact seems to be the primary goal for hunting.

The older slower cartridges needed a huge soft point to mushroom more extremely to create a more devastating wound channel because they lacked sufficient speed to initiate the tumbling due to destabilization.

https://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

Seems to say no

 

[Newbie2020]

I think he dispels the benefit of high velocity and the temporary wound channel causing death, but not the value of hydrostatic shock causing interruption of CNS resulting in the DRT drop all hunters crave.

 

[opherman47]

I think he dispels the benefit of high velocity and the temporary wound channel causing death, but not the value of hydrostatic shock causing interruption of CNS resulting in the DRT drop all hunters crave.

Yeah maybe I am interested in reading more about this... I think the tribal knowledge is probably correct I can take a elk and above with a 300 win mag... And deer and below with a 6.5 Creedmoor... I just want to have a comprehensive understanding if it's possible, of what seems to me like an important aspect of hunting. So anyone that can add some validated information with data similar to Bryan litz I'm really interested.

 

[Aftermath]

Here is the gist but it's pretty much already been stated...
Bullet needs to be traveling in the neighborhood of 2000 fps at impact for proper deformation. See above.
Deformation happens as soon as contact is made and ceases once the bullet slows too much. See above.
Bullet needs to be heavy enough to impart enough energy (at 2000 fps) for the given game animal...a 40 gr bullet is not appropriate for a brown bear. Too much bullet CAN be detrimental but that is actually a rare instance. See above.
Ideally, the bullet BARELY exits so that it expends as much of its kinetic energy but leaves 2 drainage holes. This is why you should account for more mass than just "the vitals". See above.
Shot placement still matters.

AND...here ya go.....

ShootersCalculator.com

Online ballistic calculators to help shooters calculate bullet trajectory, bullet kinetic energy, maximum point blank range, and recoil. Explains how to make these calculations and produces charts and graphs that compare various firearm cartridges and firearms.

shooterscalculator.com

 

[DJL2]

This is all very good and generalized information... But what I want to know is why... Like if I was an engineer at Hornady. How and why would I design a bullet and for what game. The internet is full of generalized recommendations like this... This mustang cartridge vs that, and recommendations, but not much analysis or proof... The one article above at ballistic studies had some good info, like fps etc, but was sadly lacking on the "why and science" hopefully there is something more comprehensive than that... Something like the Bryan litz for hunting bullets, design. ???

The reason you're only going to get generalized answers is until you start talking about a specific bullet and a specific animal at a specific impact velocity, it's really impossible to cover the full spectrum of ideas succinctly. I'm going to throw out some general concepts (they're all grounded in mechanical engineering). Some of them might spark discourse or disagreement.

- Bullets destroy tissue via energy transfer and physically cutting/crushing tissue. Of these, effective wounding depends heavily on energy transfer and/or fragmentation to ensure wide wounding.

- A simple Newtonian understanding suffices here - the target decelerates the bullet rapidly and the "equal and opposite" force becomes the mechanism through which the bullet transfers energy to create wounds.

- The above deceleration can be thought of as drag, it's just target drag instead of air drag. Cross sectional area, form factor, and velocity (squared!) are all factors. Bullets are interesting because all those factors change in relation to each other upon impact.

- The big take away is that the square of the velocity affects drag - that's affecting the stress experienced by the bullet and thus how it deforms (and sheds weight or fragments). That affects how effectively the bullet decelerates. That determines energy transfer (Impulse).

- The more force applied or the shorter the time period, the higher the impulse. The higher the impulse, the greater the stress to the tissue and the greater the wounding. Think about being pushed versus being punched - same force, different impulse.

- In light of the above, effective energy transfer (high impulse) is more important than how much is available. The bullet must transfer enough energy into the tissue to overcome its elasticity (search: elastic deformation, stress v. strain curve).

- Bullets that shed weight or fragment are much less dependent on both energy and velocity because the movement of the fragments away from the bullet's path creates additional wounding.

I've gotta go grab dinner for the fam, but you've got some basic concepts there to explore. The bottom line is you need to match the bullet, the animal, and the impact velocity for best results.

 

[opherman47]

The reason you're only going to get generalized answers is until you start talking about a specific bullet and a specific animal at a specific impact velocity, it's really impossible to cover the full spectrum of ideas succinctly. I'm going to throw out some general concepts (they're all grounded in mechanical engineering). Some of them might spark discourse or disagreement.

- Bullets destroy tissue via energy transfer and physically cutting/crushing tissue. Of these, effective wounding depends heavily on energy transfer and/or fragmentation to ensure wide wounding.

- A simple Newtonian understanding suffices here - the target decelerates the bullet rapidly and the "equal and opposite" force becomes the mechanism through which the bullet transfers energy to create wounds.

- The above deceleration can be thought of as drag, it's just target drag instead of air drag. Cross sectional area, form factor, and velocity (squared!) are all factors. Bullets are interesting because all those factors change in relation to each other upon impact.

- The big take away is that the square of the velocity affects drag - that's affecting the stress experienced by the bullet and thus how it deforms (and sheds weight or fragments). That affects how effectively the bullet decelerates. That determines energy transfer (Impulse).

- The more force applied or the shorter the time period, the higher the impulse. The higher the impulse, the greater the stress to the tissue and the greater the wounding. Think about being pushed versus being punched - same force, different impulse.

- In light of the above, effective energy transfer (high impulse) is more important than how much is available. The bullet must transfer enough energy into the tissue to overcome its elasticity (search: elastic deformation, stress v. strain curve).

- Bullets that shed weight or fragment are much less dependent on both energy and velocity because the movement of the fragments away from the bullet's path creates additional wounding.

I've gotta go grab dinner for the fam, but you've got some basic concepts there to explore. The bottom line is you need to match the bullet, the animal, and the impact velocity for best results.

Sure it's going to matter what animal, of course. Sure it's about energy transfer. But using just the above how would you assess Hornady eldm vs ELDX for an elk and then also the same two for a deer? We have things like ballistic gel etc... As for your energy transfer how do I think about that in light of this article "
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2013/10/killing-energy-how-much-do-you-need-big-game/ ". Also surely bullet composition matters? Cup core, partitioned? And would have their own set of velocities or whatever? So yeah we should have a taxonomy of animal type, bullet composition, velocity at ranges... And that should get us where we need to go right? I just can't seem to find that all in one place despite having red many many articles... And yes I also know shot placement is king at least that's what the articles say lol. But surely we can get to a good rule that is evidence-based for an ethical kill

 

[opherman47]

Also: https://www.nrafamily.org/content/terminal-ballistics-how-to-choose-the-right-ammunition-pt-3/

"
As a high-velocity bullet penetrates living tissue, it produces two kinds of deformation:

• Temporary wound cavity: The projectile's shock wave violently forces target material outward from the projectile path, creating a temporary cavity. The temporary cavity may be quite large, and its size is directly related to impact velocity.
• Permanent wound track: After a fraction of a second, the temporary cavity collapses, leaving a permanent wound track. This is the permanent deformation or destruction produced by the projectile as it plows through the target. The size of the permanent wound track is related to the bullet diameter and weight.

Because of the above, two separate schools of thought on bullet wounds have emerged. Heavy, large-caliber, low-velocity bullets that penetrate deeply are best for transferring kinetic energy to the target. This group believes the permanent wound track is the most dependable mechanism for incapacitating the target.

Low-velocity bullets, such as those from revolvers and semi-automatic pistols, do not produce a large temporary wound cavity. Instead, they depend on the permanent wound track to cause damage in the target. For this reason, large-caliber handgun bullets are a better choice than small-caliber handgun bullets for hunting and self-defense, as their larger diameter causes a bigger permanent wound track.

The other school of thought holds forth the belief that high-velocity, lightweight bullets that can create a large temporary wound cavity are the best mechanism for quick, dependable incapacitation of the target. Many exports believe that the temporary wound cavity caused by the shock wave of a high-velocity bullet creates a temporary cavity large enough to cause damage at a considerable distance from the permanent wound track. This could mean tissue damage, nerve disruption or the breaking of bones that lie near but not directly in the path of the bullet."

 

[DJL2]

The ELD-M and ELD-X are both good designs, but they are bullet models, not a specific bullet. Using a 73 grain ELD-M versus a 208 grain ELD-M is going to get you different performance. The ELD-M is a soft bullet that fragments reliably and tends to do so to very low velocity (1400 fps or so) when matched appropriately to game. The ELD-X is a tougher bullet that also tends to shed weight reliably, but has a higher velocity threshold for doing so. Both will do just fine for Elk or Deer, as will the Sierra TMK. You could shoot a SST, a Partition, a Speer BTSP, and others and get equally good results if you are mindful of impact velocity.

Jacket construction, ogive shape, HP diameter (meplat), whether the bullet is bonded/monolithic are all factors. They determine if the bullet fragments reliably, or looks pretty when it takes a good chunk of its energy uselesssly out the other side of the hide. ;-) Thicker jackets, bonding make tougher bullets. Tougher bullets shed less weight and, therefor, need more velocity. Monos or very tough bullets that shed (almost) no weight need the most velocity to create wide wounds, but tend to penetrate well.

Ballistic gel is just fine apart from having almost no resemblance at all to the thoracic cavity of an animal ;-). It does lend itself to comparing projectiles to one another though. It’s pretty easy to see the concepts discussed demonstrated in gel shots as long as you don’t get distracted by high speed footage of temp cavities (which some seem to really dig). On temp cavity, I’ll say two things:
1. A lot of people don’t understand what “temporary” means.
2. A lot of people would be better served placing a wide, fast bleeding wound into the vitals and not worrying about what the temporary cavity MIGHT do for them.

Look up a stress vs. strain curve if you haven’t. Familiarize with the concept of elastic deformation. Congratulations, you now understand the concept of the temporary wound cavity - and that it is not a failure mode. ;-) Following elastic deformation is plastic deformation and then shear/compressive failure. Congrats, you now understand the permanent wound cavity. Handguns and rifles are not even in the same league for wounding performance. Rifles have a massive advantage owing to typically possessing vastly more energy and using it vastly more efficiently. That being said, handguns of comparable energy levels produce similar wound channels.

ETA, Rules:
1. Pick a cartridge and a rifle appropriate to the game hunted
2. Practice with that rifle until you can shoot it well to any distance you intend to hunt
3. Practice doing the above under “field conditions”
4. Choose a bullet that’s light, tough, and fast or a bullet that’s heavy, soft, and moderately speedy
5. Be mindful of conditions, don’t shoot outside your skill, keep impact velocity above bullet threshold.

The impact velocity threshold will change based on the specific bullet and the game hunted.

 

[opherman47]

The ELD-M and ELD-X are both good designs, but they are bullet models, not a specific bullet. Using a 73 grain ELD-M versus a 208 grain ELD-M is going to get you different performance. The ELD-M is a soft bullet that fragments reliably and tends to do so to very low velocity (1400 fps or so) when matched appropriately to game. The ELD-X is a tougher bullet that also tends to shed weight reliably, but has a higher velocity threshold for doing so. Both will do just fine for Elk or Deer, as will the Sierra TMK. You could shoot a SST, a Partition, a Speer BTSP, and others and get equally good results if you are mindful of impact velocity.

Jacket construction, ogive shape, HP diameter (meplat), whether the bullet is bonded/monolithic are all factors. They determine if the bullet fragments reliably, or looks pretty when it takes a good chunk of its energy uselesssly out the other side of the hide. ;-) Thicker jackets, bonding make tougher bullets. Tougher bullets shed less weight and, therefor, need more velocity. Monos or very tough bullets that shed (almost) no weight need the most velocity to create wide wounds, but tend to penetrate well.

Ballistic gel is just fine apart from having almost no resemblance at all to the thoracic cavity of an animal ;-). It does lend itself to comparing projectiles to one another though. It’s pretty easy to see the concepts discussed demonstrated in gel shots as long as you don’t get distracted by high speed footage of temp cavities (which some seem to really dig). On temp cavity, I’ll say two things:
1. A lot of people don’t understand what “temporary” means.
2. A lot of people would be better served placing a wide, fast bleeding wound into the vitals and not worrying about what the temporary cavity MIGHT do for them.

Look up a stress vs. strain curve if you haven’t. Familiarize with the concept of elastic deformation. Congratulations, you now understand the concept of the temporary wound cavity - and that it is not a failure mode. ;-) Following elastic deformation is plastic deformation and then shear/compressive failure. Congrats, you now understand the permanent wound cavity. Handguns and rifles are not even in the same league for wounding performance. Rifles have a massive advantage owing to typically possessing vastly more energy and using it vastly more efficiently. That being said, handguns of comparable energy levels produce similar wound channels.

ETA, Rules:
1. Pick a cartridge and a rifle appropriate to the game hunted
2. Practice with that rifle until you can shoot it well to any distance you intend to hunt
3. Practice doing the above under “field conditions”
4. Choose a bullet that’s light, tough, and fast or a bullet that’s heavy, soft, and moderately speedy
5. Be mindful of conditions, don’t shoot outside your skill, keep impact velocity above bullet threshold.

The impact velocity threshold will change based on the specific bullet and the game hunted.

Yeah what are the rules for number one? Like right now I have a 300 win mag and a 6.5 Creedmoor and a 30-06. Picking the right rifle for the game for me right now is just whatever written for the redneck crowd articles I found online. .
Two and three are pretty straightforward between my basic rifle marksmanship from the military and my plans on going down and doing some private training days at rifle's only.

4 it's what I want to understand more about.

And could you do a deeper dive on number 5 in regards to impact velocity and whatever bullet threshold is?

 

[perttime]

Disclaimer: I don't hunt but have read on it quite a bit over the years.

For cartridge and bullet selection, there are lots of variables. For example:
- Do you just want to kill the animal or do you want to keep the meat and skin usable?
- What does it take to kill the animal?

Small animals die easier (coyotes, most larger birds). If you just want it dead, use a fragile bullet at high velocity, so the bullet disintegrates as soon as it touches the skin. There isn't much to penetrate.
If you want to eat the small animal, you'll want a bullet that stays together, to keep the meat edible. Then you'll need to be accurate enough to hit it in a really vital spot. Maybe even use a bigger bullet at a more moderate velocity to get a good hole through it without causing excessive damage.

For larger amimals (elk, moose) you need penetration and a bullet that expands, and still stays together. People have done tests for penetration and how much of the bullet remains together after the hit. Some like to find a mushroomed bullet with almost all of its weight remaining, just under the critter's off-side skin. Others like the bullet to exit, for more blood loss and easy tracking in case the animal does not drop in a few seconds. In Northern Europe, people take lots of Eurasian Moose every year, with .308 Winchester or equivalents of your 6.5CM, using bullets that will expand and stay together at the likely impact velocities. That might seem marginal but it works if your hits are good. Some like to use bigger bullets, so you don't need much expansion. Think 45-70 or .458 WinMag, or .458 SOCOM for pretty short ranges.

If you go to really big and tough animals that can also easily kill you (Cape Buffalo) you generally want a big bullet that WILL penetrate, and does not expand much, if at all. Apparently, .375 HH will do that if you do your part. But people like to have something "heavy in .45 to .60 for backup. Many who go to Africa for "dangerous game" seem to think that 2,400 fps at the muzzle is a sweet spot for velocity: less could lack power to penetrate and more could deform even the toughest bullets on impact, again reducing penetration.

 

[DJL2]

Number 1 is HOTLY debated. In part it’s because different shooters hunt differently. Are you the sort of guy that might get only one shot at an animal so you’re going to attempt that Texas Heart Shot from 400 yds? Do you brush hunt where even modest cartridges can produce high velocity impacts (over 2600 fps)? Do you hunt at long range where impact velocity is low and you need maximum forgiveness from bullet design? Do you pass on the quartering away shot and wait for something better? Do you aim for the lungs or to break the shoulders?The point here is that how you answer these questions changes what you need the bullet to do. Two guys can shoot the same bullet and end up with vastly different results.

Plenty of shooters out there have a really hard time admitting when they missed or made a bad shot. If a hunter is in the woods or hills with a weapon vastly more capable than a bow and not getting it done, the results are firstly the fault of the shooter. That the .30-06 will take anything in North America cleanly is a matter of historical record. Whether a given hunter can do so is another matter entirely.

Using the -06 as an example, a 130 or a 150 TTSX driven hard is a good example of light and tough driven fast. A 165 SST is tough-ish, light enough to be generally useful and tends to shed weight well. A 175 TMK or 178 ELD-M is something of a middle weight, soft enough and slow enough out of the -06 to be generally useful as well. You could opt for a 195 TMK or 208 ELD-M as a general purpose choice (heavy and soft) on larger game weights. Violent expansion, but enough mass and a modest muzzle velocity for use at close range.

Impact velocity threshold comes down to a question: do you want the best wounding a well designed bullet and rifle can deliver or will you settle for recreating the performance of a broad head, but at more flexible ranges and angles? A bullet can trade its mass and its velocity to create wounding. Bullets that don’t trade any of their mass rely a lot more heavily on their velocity. Some general rules, assuming you’re in the ball park of “normal” for cartridge selection.
1. Cup and core bullets with thin jackets and lacking core bonding tend to ride the struggle bus over 2900 fps.
2. The above might be considered “excessive” at impacts over 2700 fps.
3. A properly massed cup and core bullet will do solid work from 2400-2700 fps.
4. A properly massed, soft cup and core bullet will do good work down to 2200 fps, and adequate to 1800-2000 fps.
5. A properly massed, fragmentary cup and core bullet will do good work down to 1800 fps, and adequate below that depending on the design.
6. Copper monos or very tough jacketed and bonded bullets can endure above 2900 fps reliably, but wounding may be considered excessive.
7. The above, properly massed, will perform very well between 2600-2900 fps.
8. Their performance will taper significantly as velocity drops, the cutoff for good work being 2400 fps.
9. The cutoff for adequate will vary, ball park may be 2200 fps or so.

If you’re a good shot, almost anything will work. If you’re a bad shot, almost nothing can compensate for it. However, shit happens in the field and wounding effectively matters, especially if you don’t like slow kills and tracking animals. Your shot selection will impact bullet performance. Americans tend to err vastly on the side of penetration at the expense of wounding (opinion).

 

[opherman47]

Number 1 is HOTLY debated. In part it’s because different shooters hunt differently. Are you the sort of guy that might get only one shot at an animal so you’re going to attempt that Texas Heart Shot from 400 yds? Do you brush hunt where even modest cartridges can produce high velocity impacts (over 2600 fps)? Do you hunt at long range where impact velocity is low and you need maximum forgiveness from bullet design? Do you pass on the quartering away shot and wait for something better? Do you aim for the lungs or to break the shoulders?The point here is that how you answer these questions changes what you need the bullet to do. Two guys can shoot the same bullet and end up with vastly different results.

Plenty of shooters out there have a really hard time admitting when they missed or made a bad shot. If a hunter is in the woods or hills with a weapon vastly more capable than a bow and not getting it done, the results are firstly the fault of the shooter. That the .30-06 will take anything in North America cleanly is a matter of historical record. Whether a given hunter can do so is another matter entirely.

Using the -06 as an example, a 130 or a 150 TTSX driven hard is a good example of light and tough driven fast. A 165 SST is tough-ish, light enough to be generally useful and tends to shed weight well. A 175 TMK or 178 ELD-M is something of a middle weight, soft enough and slow enough out of the -06 to be generally useful as well. You could opt for a 195 TMK or 208 ELD-M as a general purpose choice (heavy and soft) on larger game weights. Violent expansion, but enough mass and a modest muzzle velocity for use at close range.

Impact velocity threshold comes down to a question: do you want the best wounding a well designed bullet and rifle can deliver or will you settle for recreating the performance of a broad head, but at more flexible ranges and angles? A bullet can trade its mass and its velocity to create wounding. Bullets that don’t trade any of their mass rely a lot more heavily on their velocity. Some general rules, assuming you’re in the ball park of “normal” for cartridge selection.
1. Cup and core bullets with thin jackets and lacking core bonding tend to ride the struggle bus over 2900 fps.
2. The above might be considered “excessive” at impacts over 2700 fps.
3. A properly massed cup and core bullet will do solid work from 2400-2700 fps.
4. A properly massed, soft cup and core bullet will do good work down to 2200 fps, and adequate to 1800-2000 fps.
5. A properly massed, fragmentary cup and core bullet will do good work down to 1800 fps, and adequate below that depending on the design.
6. Copper monos or very tough jacketed and bonded bullets can endure above 2900 fps reliably, but wounding may be considered excessive.
7. The above, properly massed, will perform very well between 2600-2900 fps.
8. Their performance will taper significantly as velocity drops, the cutoff for good work being 2400 fps.
9. The cutoff for adequate will vary, ball park may be 2200 fps or so.

If you’re a good shot, almost anything will work. If you’re a bad shot, almost nothing can compensate for it. However, shit happens in the field and wounding effectively matters, especially if you don’t like slow kills and tracking animals. Your shot selection will impact bullet performance. Americans tend to err vastly on the side of penetration at the expense of wounding (opinion).

This is immensely helpful, thank you so much for taking the time to put this together.

Having shot countless rounds iron sight and red dot to 300 m over the last 15 years in the army, It will be interesting to see how I do behind a scope. (I hope quite favorably).

I'm going to spend some time getting to know the different cartridges and bullet types and may come back with some questions now that I'm armed with this information.

Again you are very clear and I really appreciate you taking the time!

 

[Aftermath]

I'm going to spend some time getting to know the different cartridges and bullet types and may come back with some questions now that I'm armed with this information.

Use a ballistic tool such as Ballistic AE.
If you reload, you can enter the bullet from a huge selection and enter an initial (muzzle) velocity.
If you do not reload, there is a huge selection of over the counter available cartridges from various manufacturers with initial velocity decided for you.
From there, you can create a chart with bullet velocity listed as one of the variables at the yardages, along with other information such as bullet drop and foot lbs of energy.
So...say you are shooting a 210 gr VLD from your 300 WINMAG with initial velocity of 2950 fps. That bullet is still traveling at 2000 fps at 1350 yards and have over 1800 foot lbs of energy. That bullet should perform just dandy on an 800 lb bull elk at 1350 yards (I would get MUCH closer) but would be a marginal performer on a 2000 lb bull bison.

EDIT: Most ammo boxes have some of this info listed.

 

[Jerry m]

Assuming you mean bison (not Cape Buffalo) and hunt at 'normal ' hunting ranges, buy a boring .30-06 and quality scope and learn how to shoot. Factory ammunition (when produced) is available in bullet weights from from 110 grain to 220 grain. This covers most animals in North, Central, and South America, plus many other species.
Important part is to practice with the load you need for your game. Once proficient you can go from there.

Good Luck

 

[30338]

30-06 elk at 400 yards with 155 scenar. 18" barrel.


6.5x47 elk at 400 yards with 140 vld. 18" barrel.


Just a couple examples. This stuff is way over thought.

 

[opherman47]

30-06 elk at 400 yards with 155 scenar. 18" barrel.


6.5x47 elk at 400 yards with 140 vld. 18" barrel.


Just a couple examples. This stuff is way over thoug

Sure but I think it's good to understand... If a deeper understanding is available I am curious to have it.

 

[Aftermath]

30-06 elk at 400 yards with 155 scenar. 18" barrel.


6.5x47 elk at 400 yards with 140 vld. 18" barrel.


Just a couple examples. This stuff is way over thought.

What are the muzzle velocities? What about impact velocities?

 

[Aftermath]

To be clear, it's not all about velocity and energy. It's not all about shot placement, either. You can have enough velocity for good bullet performance, enough energy for the animal and place the shot in a "good" spot and still have poor killing performance.
I have been with hunters in Bush Alaska when they killed bull moose with AR15's in 5.56 NATO using surplus 55 gr FMJ at less than 100 yards. It takes more than one well placed shot to take one down. It takes more than 2 well placed shots. In fact, it takes more than 5 well placed shots. I personally do not find it to be ethical to use a combination that I am fairly certain will not result in a one shot kill.

 

[30338]

What are the muzzle velocities? What about impact velocities?

The 30-06 shoots that 155 at around 2800 or scunch under. Impact around 2200 fps. The short lapua starts around 2650 and impact per JBM should have been around 2150 or so. I'd go down to 1800 fps or so on either before I'd tap out.

 

[308pirate]

Military= Restricted (under geneva convention) to non expanding ammo

Nope. The Geneva accords don't regulate military ammunition. The Hague convention does.

 

[308pirate]

in the military, rifle and ammunition combinations are designed to remove enemy combatants ability to fight... not neccissarily to kill effectively - if you kill an enemy, you remove 1 from the battlefield, if you maim them you remove them and potentially a few extra to care for them/remove them to aid, and the screaming etc has a detrimental effect on their buddies morale.

Fake news. Such has never been military doctrine in any country I'm familiar with, least of which ours.

 

[Aftermath]

The 30-06 shoots that 155 at around 2800 or scunch under. Impact around 2200 fps. The short lapua starts around 2650 and impact per JBM should have been around 2150 or so. I'd go down to 1800 fps or so on either before I'd tap out.

Somewhere about 550 yards.

 

[30338]

Actually closer to 400 yards in both instances. Both have a little gas left in the tank at that distance for sure.

Or if you meant would I shoot elk or bears out to 550 yards, I would.