Hydro forming die vs Fireforming for making AI cases
- Thread starter Fursniper
- Start date
I want to keep barrel life to a maximum in this rifle. Besides the fact that I need maximum accuracy in this rig set up specifically for ELR and fireforming isn't going to give me that. I've got 300 rounds to form and really don't want to fireform if there's a good alternatve, but I have never tried hydro forming & wonder for those who have, how sucessfully they felt it was.
Understandable. I was getting fairly consistent 1/4moa out of forming loads in my brx and my 260ai has no trouble holding 1/2moa with my old, 3800 round barrel with forming loads in it. Don't underestimate a good forming load. As for hydro forming, give dj brass service a call. Depending on the round he might be able to help.
You can fireform with Trailboss with negligible effect on barrel life. Hydroforming involves water and a piston and a hammer. Is that what you want anywhere near your reloading bench? Do you want to build a separate station to deal with the mess?
Got an extra unused bench in the load room if it is going to make any mess. Has that been your experience?
What happens when you combine case lube with water? Howbout water running all over your press? Google the videos.
I've always wondered why a seating die with a firing attachment screwed to the end of the die, and a muffler of sorts screwed to the other end, couldn't be used for brass forming (assuming using COW or a tissue plug)? Maybe use a clearing barrel or something to contain some of the noise? Just thinking/wondering out loud...
My understanding is the hydro formed cases are very similar in capacity to those fire formed with CoW. In my experience cases formed using CoW are 95% + formed requiring moderate to full pressure loads to complete the sharp shoulder.
My take would be to go ahead and FF using CoW, give the barrel a good scrubbing, and go to work.
My take would be to go ahead and FF using CoW, give the barrel a good scrubbing, and go to work.
I've been considering building a hydro die. So far what I've done is chambered two rifles to the same gauge and use one to form with. It wears a cheap green Mountain barrel. I form with full house loads and nosler blems or match burners and the accuracy is quite staggering.
Fursniper,
I tried to send you a PM about this, but I clicked in the wrong spot, and it says I sent it as a "Visitor Message". I guess I haven't quite figured out the new old site yet.
I tried to send you a PM about this, but I clicked in the wrong spot, and it says I sent it as a "Visitor Message". I guess I haven't quite figured out the new old site yet.
All of the above mentioned processes have their pro's & cons. I shoot 6 Dashers & .284 Shehane's in benchrest competition. I've tried them all.
My .284 Shehane has been mostly Jam a bullet into the lands and shoot practice sessions with .284 Win. loads. Perfectly formed case on the first firing and it's very accurate. I'm only guessing but, I'd bet my hydroformed cases are probably 98-99% formed before their first firing since I'm only blowing out the case walls a smidgen.
The hydroforming is nice because I can do it in my garage and nobody is the wiser. (no gunshot sounds). Yes, it is somewhat messy (wet), not a big deal in my book. Doing it in the garage, I spray my press with WD40 or wipe it with an oily rag. Then I'll hydroform however many cases I want. Dry the area, dry the press and wipe it back down with something to inhibit rust and it's been just fine. (RCBS RockChucker). Dasher cases come out probably 95% formed, the shoulders are still a little rounded. Gotta dry the cases too. Some guys will run a full powder charge on the first firing, others will shoot a lower node on the first firing and go to their higher match load on the second firing.
Cream of Wheat - Gets you probably 95ish% of the way formed too. It's kind of a pain in comparison. For the Dasher, you need to neck up the case to something like .25 caliber and then to create a false shoulder, size the neck back down to .24 cal. just far enough for the bolt to be able to close tightly, very tightly. You want the case to not move when fired. It does allow you to fireform and then neck turn if needed...nice. DOWNSIDE: COW is stinky when fired. Noisy, only a problem if you live in a neighborhood (I do). Still sounds like a gunshot in your garage...imagine what your neighbors will be thinking if you're doing that 300 times. Burns up a primer, some pistol powder and your breakfast (the Cream of Wheat). It's tedious rolling up the paper towel/toilet paper and stuffing it in the case neck. I'm sure the powder & primer burning don't do anything to improve barrel life either but, I assume it's still easier on the barrel than a full powder charge and bullet going through there. I have extra barrels in both calibers so, not worried about it.
In my case, Dashers are also known to be very accurate with fire forming loads. Just use the original caliber's (ie, 6 BR) powder charge weight and go shoot a club match or practice day. Using a stiffer 6 BR load with the Dasher probably gets you 95% of the way on that first firing. Many of us don't consider it fully formed until the 2nd or third firing. DOWNSIDE: yes, you are using up more barrel life to get where you want to go. A little bit of work depending upon whether you use a lot of neck tension with the jam & shoot method or use the false shoulder method.
-Rick
My .284 Shehane has been mostly Jam a bullet into the lands and shoot practice sessions with .284 Win. loads. Perfectly formed case on the first firing and it's very accurate. I'm only guessing but, I'd bet my hydroformed cases are probably 98-99% formed before their first firing since I'm only blowing out the case walls a smidgen.
The hydroforming is nice because I can do it in my garage and nobody is the wiser. (no gunshot sounds). Yes, it is somewhat messy (wet), not a big deal in my book. Doing it in the garage, I spray my press with WD40 or wipe it with an oily rag. Then I'll hydroform however many cases I want. Dry the area, dry the press and wipe it back down with something to inhibit rust and it's been just fine. (RCBS RockChucker). Dasher cases come out probably 95% formed, the shoulders are still a little rounded. Gotta dry the cases too. Some guys will run a full powder charge on the first firing, others will shoot a lower node on the first firing and go to their higher match load on the second firing.
Cream of Wheat - Gets you probably 95ish% of the way formed too. It's kind of a pain in comparison. For the Dasher, you need to neck up the case to something like .25 caliber and then to create a false shoulder, size the neck back down to .24 cal. just far enough for the bolt to be able to close tightly, very tightly. You want the case to not move when fired. It does allow you to fireform and then neck turn if needed...nice. DOWNSIDE: COW is stinky when fired. Noisy, only a problem if you live in a neighborhood (I do). Still sounds like a gunshot in your garage...imagine what your neighbors will be thinking if you're doing that 300 times. Burns up a primer, some pistol powder and your breakfast (the Cream of Wheat). It's tedious rolling up the paper towel/toilet paper and stuffing it in the case neck. I'm sure the powder & primer burning don't do anything to improve barrel life either but, I assume it's still easier on the barrel than a full powder charge and bullet going through there. I have extra barrels in both calibers so, not worried about it.
In my case, Dashers are also known to be very accurate with fire forming loads. Just use the original caliber's (ie, 6 BR) powder charge weight and go shoot a club match or practice day. Using a stiffer 6 BR load with the Dasher probably gets you 95% of the way on that first firing. Many of us don't consider it fully formed until the 2nd or third firing. DOWNSIDE: yes, you are using up more barrel life to get where you want to go. A little bit of work depending upon whether you use a lot of neck tension with the jam & shoot method or use the false shoulder method.
-Rick
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